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vkd

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2012
970
345
""Today, too many children are denied access to quality education simply because of the zip code they live in. They begin their lives facing strong headwinds and disadvantage they did nothing to deserve." "

Based on a gross materialistic viewpoint with complete disregard, or lack of knowledge of, the laws of karma and reincarnation, one may ask, "How can Cook honestly state that a person's particular situation is undeserved? What is it that Cook knows about any person's previous activities that allows him to make such a sweeping statement?

In answer to this question, a learned transcendentalist may answer that he does not know anything, that he is a blind atheist, a gross materialist engaged in promoting a dead and morbid culture to create a hopeless society more willing to waste their lives and resources on the meaningless futility he is peddling, in unison with many others of like type.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Based on a gross materialistic viewpoint with complete disregard, or lack of knowledge of, the laws of karma and reincarnation, one may ask, "How can Cook honestly state that a person's particular situation is undeserved? What is it that Cook knows about any person's previous activities that allows him to make such a sweeping statement?

People who live in The Hamptons generally do better for themselves than people from Podunk, LA. While it's very possible that someone who grew up in the former might end up a dead beat, while the latter goes on to do great things, generally speaking, the nicer the neighborhood, the more opportunities that are present.
 

efktd

macrumors 6502a
Sep 29, 2011
567
690
USA
i still think all apple exec's should be wearing a black turtleneck and bluejeans...
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
People who live in The Hamptons generally do better for themselves than people from Podunk, LA. While it's very possible that someone who grew up in the former might end up a dead beat, while the latter goes on to do great things, generally speaking, the nicer the neighborhood, the more opportunities that are present.

Thanks for addressing that.

I, however, don't even think the OP was trying to be series. It read as if he/she was trying to state that poor and disenfranchised people are that way ONLY because of what they did in a previous life.

I'm open to varying points of view, but the logic falls apart when the OP alluded to the notion that we shouldn't help poor people, because they essentially deserve to be poor.
 
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phillipduran

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2008
1,055
607
People who live in The Hamptons generally do better for themselves than people from Podunk, LA. While it's very possible that someone who grew up in the former might end up a dead beat, while the latter goes on to do great things, generally speaking, the nicer the neighborhood, the more opportunities that are present.

I would say there are more opportunities in Podunk, and more capability in the Hamptops. That leads to the skewed view of things being unfair.

I used to straddle two communities. The rich side of Las Vegas and the poor side of Las Vegas as a delivery person. I can see why the poor suffer and why the rich excel. The difference of character among those two communities is night and day. Generally the rich found their way to where they are at through a can do attitude. The poor are stuck there because of a do it for me attitude. I've seen a lot of the world. Coast to coast of this country and that has proven consistent everywhere I've been. You want it in this country and you'll find a way. The opportunity is everywhere, your attitude is what matters.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
I would say there are more opportunities in Podunk, and more capability in the Hamptops. That leads to the skewed view of things being unfair.

I used to straddle two communities. The rich side of Las Vegas and the poor side of Las Vegas as a delivery person. I can see why the poor suffer and why the rich excel. The difference of character among those two communities is night and day. Generally the rich found their way to where they are at through a can do attitude. The poor are stuck there because of a do it for me attitude. I've seen a lot of the world. Coast to coast of this country and that has proven consistent everywhere I've been. You want it in this country and you'll find a way. The opportunity is everywhere, your attitude is what matters.

I don't 100% agree. It's true that attitude is important, that will to succeed and make something of yourself can take you a long way. But I don't think the poor are poor simply because they expect everything to be handed to them. Yeah, I have met some people like that, but I've also met some lower middle class people who have to work their asses off just to tread water living a meager lifestyle.

Like everything in life, it's a sometimes, not always type of affair.

As for location being important, think of it like this. Your parents are rich, they send you to a nice school where you're tailor fitted for Harvard. You'll still have to work hard to succeed, but your path is better laid out for you than some inner city kid plugging away the best he can in an underfunded public school while working a job to help supplement the family income. It'll be no surprise to anyone when that latter kid scores lower on his test scores, possibly missing out on a higher tier school despite having the same potential as the kid being prepped for higher education from day one.

It's not impossible for that inner city kid to make it to an Ivy League school, but he does have a much steeper hill to climb than you, who grew up in a much more enabling environment like the Hamptons.

Now I don't think anyone and everyone should be allowed to go to any college they want just because it's "fair". Hard work and dedication should equate to better standards and a higher quality of life. But I do think that everyone should be equal in opportunity to succeed. Right now, I don't think that's the case.
 

Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
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Wrong. Carter banned Iranians. WWII we rounded up the Japanese, during a war we won by the way. You can question the strat, but at the end of the day, we won.
This country shut down immigration for a while in the past, like decades. We have banned immigration of communists in the 50's. etc. etc.

We have a long history of putting the safety of this country first. Lately though, these liberals and democrats just cant seem to say no to anyone, no matter what the risk. That doesn't work. USA first. This current batch of politicians doesn't seem to think that way.

We have quota and controls to keep this country running. It's a pretty simple concept but Mr. O has been encouraging the flood from the south and people from lands breeding terrorists. What the heck?? It makes your head spin.

Your Republican blinders don't let you see the reality.

ANYBODY who wants to CAN come into this country!

It doesn't matter which party is in control.

"This country shut down immigration for a while in the past, like decades".

It seems to have worked really well with millions and millions of illegal latinos (who are btw needed, but that's another story) and more are coming every day! Some other nationalities too, but not the same amount of people.

If it becomes more difficult to just fly in with a false passport, they'll come in this way.

The illusion of safe borders is just that.

Now, all the politicians are doing is making it more difficult.

I am not against checking or vetting, but I think that process has a 50/50 possibility of success.

Unfortunately all I could find was old date and predictions, but in 2012 apr. 65 million people come into the US
with a 4% estimated increase that's about 73 million for 2015. That's 200,000 people a day.
I don't think one can find a few bad apples easily in that number, especially if they have good (false) papers.

About the only thing one can do is to change politics and try to educate young people in other countries about democracy and accepting it. That will take many generations if ever.
 

LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,768
36,276
Catskill Mountains
I would say there are more opportunities in Podunk, and more capability in the Hamptops. That leads to the skewed view of things being unfair.

I used to straddle two communities. The rich side of Las Vegas and the poor side of Las Vegas as a delivery person. I can see why the poor suffer and why the rich excel. The difference of character among those two communities is night and day. Generally the rich found their way to where they are at through a can do attitude. The poor are stuck there because of a do it for me attitude. I've seen a lot of the world. Coast to coast of this country and that has proven consistent everywhere I've been. You want it in this country and you'll find a way. The opportunity is everywhere, your attitude is what matters.

I largely disagree with the conclusions of your post. It’s good you had the decency to use the word “generally” in there somewhere.

We are not born with attitudes, I’d start there I guess. We’re born needing sustenance of body as well as spirit. If we’re lucky in the lottery of birth or adoption, we have parents who meet our material needs and by example instill values that contribute to what we may call “good character”.

If we don’t get that kind of parenting, well, anyone may still benefit from encountering a good mentor, teacher, neighbor, etc., who at least in part can help make up for that lack.

But of course we do not all have that kind of luck in lieu of a nurturing setup from the get-go. So we may indeed end up with either a combative or victimized attitude, and plenty may never manage to bootstrap out and up from there. A kid might realize he doesn’t have a bike or an iPod but it’s probably not an inherent mental gift to realize that if you do things differently from how everyone else in your crap neighborhood does things, you can get a bike or an iPod by methods other than, say, thievery.

I’d hardly say that means that the rich get a free pass, because it doesn’t take a lot of looking around to realize that the poor have no lock on amorality or immorality and associated negative behavior.

I’m remembering some little snot whose parents owned a pharmaceutical company in an upstate town. He may eventually have become an investment banker or embarked on whatever fabulous career he deserved to scarf up from his well-heeled start, but in the meantime he was an unholy terror, running people down with his bike, stealing stuff, cheating on tests at school. But everyone cut him slack because his father employed half the town. Still I have to admit he was taking advantage of his opportunities!

And now I’m remembering a little brat the age of one of my younger siblings, probably six or seven when I first knew him in my mid-teens. He used to hang outside our back door around suppertime (because his mom was a drunk and there was no supper at home). We’d give him dinner sometimes, since we were a big family and one more potato in the stew for Paulie, what the heck. But the hunger in his face, it wasn’t just the food, it was for love, for belonging, for being asked in. So was he a “do it for me” kid? Yeah, I guess so. What else could he be at that age, and when should he have busted out of that and taken advantage of all the opportunity America offers?
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
.... your attitude is what matters.


We are not born with attitudes,....

Good points all around, and I agree with Renzatic and LizKat. I've also straddled the lines between rich and poor here in Baltimore City, where the lines are literally across the street from one another. One side of Park Heights is considered the "hood" and the other is predominantly upper middle class.

To sum up what you all have said, "Attitude reflects leadership."

If attitude is ALL that matters, then you've proven our points. Poor people will get their attitudes from their downtrodden parents/guardians, who have done all they could and have gotten nowhere.

Meanwhile, the upper middle class (which I'm apart of) raises their children and affords them a host of opportunities via both cash, connections, and resources. I know my children are going to be better and have better attitudes than I because of my own attitude and what I can give them, but that "hard work" stems from my parents who did have less, but weren't living in poverty. . . . especially abject poverty.

When you have less, you don't get as far, that's a sad fact that I wish weren't true. I seriously wish you were correct phillipduran. All of us do. It's just not the case.
 
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Renzatic

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When you have less, you don't get as far, that's a sad fact that I wish weren't true. I seriously wish you were correct phillipduran. All of us do. It's just not the case.

I'd say he's partially correct, though he's falling short by applying too simple an answer to a complex equation with a thousand moving parts.

It's a truism that a forward thinking attitude does play a large part in gaining success. Even if you grew up dirt poor and abused, standing up for yourself one day and deciding your sick of it is that first big step towards making something of yourself. It's something anyone can do.

But on that same note, not everyone can afford to fail as gracefully as others. If you come from a rich background, a failure isn't a massive setback. You still have tons of assets and support to fall back upon. It takes a massive amount of failures to reach the point where you're truly hopelessly dead ended. Someone coming from a poor background, where one fateful day could mean the dividing line between the first step towards success and homeless destitution don't have that same luxury. Everyone has their mental breaking point, or financial point of collapse. Failure, quite simply, hurts much worse for the poor.

Plus there's the whole issue of psychology to take into consideration. To put a simple spin on it, most people tend to become what others think of them through positive or negative reinforcement. Now this isn't to say that everyone is fated to become X or Y, but it does play a big part in how people approach life. If you draw a nice picture as a kid, and everyone will talk about your natural talent, and gush over how awesome it is. In turn, you're going to spend more time drawing. You'll likely grow up to be, well not necessarily an artist, but someone who can draw. This is true of people who are told they're worthless trash their entire life. Most people internalize that. Don't even try to better themselves because they think the life they're currently leading is all they deserve.

Though anyone at any time can say screw it, I can better myself no matter what everyone else says, and I'm going to do it, and they just might. But if they fail a couple good times, losing the shirts off their back, they might just go back to thinking that everyone was right all along.

Success is a combination of many things. Hard work. Dedication. Wise planning. People make their own good luck, and that takes effort to do. But people don't necessarily control every circumstance that comes their way, and sometimes people with the right attitude might have the right plan for success, but are passed over due to bad timing or inconvenient circumstances. Some people can pick themselves up after that. Others can't.

In short, it's complicated as hell. It isn't merely that the successful people tried, and the poor people didn't. Not always. It's an ever expanding web of a lot of things that are different for everyone. A lot of it is within your control, and some beyond it, that contribute to a whole.

I think realizing this is one big part of being a successful person, either by personal standards, or societal ones. But at the same time, having a safety net in place to prevent people from falling into a hole they can't climb out of wouldn't hurt. The point of government shouldn't be to perpetually take care of its citizenry, but to always bolster competition and social climbing, and this does occasionally mean taking care of the low end.

The liberal ideal is to leverage society to better enable the individual to improve himself and his position, after all.
 
Last edited:

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
1,119
1,302
The poor are stuck there because of a do it for me attitude. I've seen a lot of the world. Coast to coast of this country and that has proven consistent everywhere I've been. You want it in this country and you'll find a way. The opportunity is everywhere, your attitude is what matters.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but, it does remind me of the classical fallacy of composition:

If someone stands up out of his seat at a cricket match, he can see better. Therefore, if everyone stands up they can all see better.

If a runner runs faster, he can win the race. Therefore, if all the runners run faster, they can all win the race.

We can't all win the race, can we, even if we all work really, really hard and all have a can-do attitude?
 
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phillipduran

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2008
1,055
607
I don't 100% agree. It's true that attitude is important, that will to succeed and make something of yourself can take you a long way. But I don't think the poor are poor simply because they expect everything to be handed to them. Yeah, I have met some people like that, but I've also met some lower middle class people who have to work their asses off just to tread water living a meager lifestyle.

Like everything in life, it's a sometimes, not always type of affair.

As for location being important, think of it like this. Your parents are rich, they send you to a nice school where you're tailor fitted for Harvard. You'll still have to work hard to succeed, but your path is better laid out for you than some inner city kid plugging away the best he can in an underfunded public school while working a job to help supplement the family income. It'll be no surprise to anyone when that latter kid scores lower on his test scores, possibly missing out on a higher tier school despite having the same potential as the kid being prepped for higher education from day one.

It's not impossible for that inner city kid to make it to an Ivy League school, but he does have a much steeper hill to climb than you, who grew up in a much more enabling environment like the Hamptons.

Now I don't think anyone and everyone should be allowed to go to any college they want just because it's "fair". Hard work and dedication should equate to better standards and a higher quality of life. But I do think that everyone should be equal in opportunity to succeed. Right now, I don't think that's the case.

The path is better laid out for the rich kid. Yes, shouldn't that be how it is? If my parents worked hard and worked for my future before I was even born, shouldn't I and they reap the rewards? IF not, what the heck is worth working for?

Work and reward. There is a benefit for the next generation for the hard work you do today. Nice neighborhoods are generally filled with people who understand this. Those that don't, generally live on the bad side of town and watch Jerry Springer all day.
 

phillipduran

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2008
1,055
607
Your Republican blinders don't let you see the reality.

ANYBODY who wants to CAN come into this country!

It doesn't matter which party is in control.

"This country shut down immigration for a while in the past, like decades".

It seems to have worked really well with millions and millions of illegal latinos (who are btw needed, but that's another story) and more are coming every day! Some other nationalities too, but not the same amount of people.

If it becomes more difficult to just fly in with a false passport, they'll come in this way.

The illusion of safe borders is just that.

Now, all the politicians are doing is making it more difficult.

I am not against checking or vetting, but I think that process has a 50/50 possibility of success.

Unfortunately all I could find was old date and predictions, but in 2012 apr. 65 million people come into the US
with a 4% estimated increase that's about 73 million for 2015. That's 200,000 people a day.
I don't think one can find a few bad apples easily in that number, especially if they have good (false) papers.

About the only thing one can do is to change politics and try to educate young people in other countries about democracy and accepting it. That will take many generations if ever.

Republican blinders, whatever. I'm not republican. I'm an independent and a conservative.

I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You missed the point, but lets talk about that. Illegal immigration has skyrocketed because Obama gave off the signals that he wanted to allow it and accommodate illegal immigrants. Then the flood started and we got more and more immigration problems in the southwest. You can can shore up your nation, but 100% is not the goal. Our current president is doing everything he can to increase illegal immigration and stalls on any idea that would stop or slow illegal immigration.

The only thing you can do is change politics? Well if you mean not ignore the law then yes. You can deport, secure the border, patrol the border, install fence and monitoring technology, pressure countries that don't do their part to stop their citizens from illegally crossing into our country, prosecute businesses that hire illegals, stop giving instate tuition to illegals, stop giving free health care to illegals, stop trying to pass laws to give licenses to illegals.

Instead, were rolling out the red carpet for illegals and spitting in the face of every single legal immigrant that is going through the process correctly and being immigrated into the country in accordance with the laws and what this country has determined it can sustain as the correct level of immigration.
 
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lowendlinux

macrumors 603
Sep 24, 2014
5,443
6,750
Germany
Republican blinders, whatever. I'm not republican. I'm an independent and a conservative.

I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You missed the point, but lets talk about that. Illegal immigration has skyrocketed because Obama gave off the signals that he wanted to allow it and accommodate illegal immigrants. Then the flood started and we got more and more immigration problems in the southwest. You can can shore up your nation, but 100% is not the goal. Our current president is doing everything he can to increase illegal immigration and stalls on any idea that would stop or slow illegal immigration.

The only thing you can do is change politics? Well if you mean not ignore the law then yes. You can deport, secure the border, patrol the border, install fence and monitoring technology, pressure countries that don't do their part to stop their citizens from illegally crossing into our country, prosecute businesses that hire illegals, stop giving instate tuition to illegals, stop giving free health care to illegals, stop trying to pass laws to give licenses to illegals.

Instead, were rolling out the red carpet for illegals and spitting in the face of every single legal immigrant that is going through the process correctly and being immigrated into the country in accordance with the laws and what this country has determined it can sustain as the correct level of immigration.

Actually it's been on a downward trend since 2008
 

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
1,119
1,302
Illegal immigration has skyrocketed because Obama gave off the signals that he wanted to allow it and accommodate illegal immigrants. Then the flood started and we got more and more immigration problems in the southwest.

I would like you to be clear about what you are asking for here. Are you saying that Obama should have signaled that we'll just have to let children die in the desert along the southwestern border? In any case, the fraction of illegal immigrants in the U.S. peaked in 2006 AFAIK.

US_population_compared_to_immigrant_in_US_illegally_population.PNG
 

Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
4,057
2,118
Republican blinders, whatever. I'm not republican. I'm an independent and a conservative.

I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You missed the point, but lets talk about that. Illegal immigration has skyrocketed because Obama gave off the signals that he wanted to allow it and accommodate illegal immigrants. Then the flood started and we got more and more immigration problems in the southwest. You can can shore up your nation, but 100% is not the goal. Our current president is doing everything he can to increase illegal immigration and stalls on any idea that would stop or slow illegal immigration.

The only thing you can do is change politics? Well if you mean not ignore the law then yes. You can deport, secure the border, patrol the border, install fence and monitoring technology, pressure countries that don't do their part to stop their citizens from illegally crossing into our country, prosecute businesses that hire illegals, stop giving instate tuition to illegals, stop giving free health care to illegals, stop trying to pass laws to give licenses to illegals.

Instead, were rolling out the red carpet for illegals and spitting in the face of every single legal immigrant that is going through the process correctly and being immigrated into the country in accordance with the laws and what this country has determined it can sustain as the correct level of immigration.

Okay I get it you don't like Obama.
Whatever your political persuasion, just admit that illegal immigrants were a problem before Obama was elected and it will be in the future, regardless of who is the next president.
Obama at least tried to tackle the problem whereas previous president/houses could only think of amnesty.
Unfortunately nobody wants to work any further on this problem and due to the partisan agendas this will remain unsolved.
Nobody wants to address the underlying problem that these illegals are needed , because Americans don't like to do hand labor or assembly line work without crying for OSHA or machines. Theer aren't even enough workers in this country to do all the manual labor.

On top of that, the latinos especially make child after child and will eventually (not in my life time) be the dominant demographic in this country. There are already entire sections in USA where you get further with Spanish than with English.

The government can't even agree to make English the main language by law.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
On top of that, the latinos especially make child after child and will eventually (not in my life time) be the dominant demographic in this country. There are already entire sections in USA where you get further with Spanish than with English.

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about that. White Americans still make up anywhere between 66-70% of the population. At 13%, Latinos make up the largest minority demographic, but considering they only have three kids average per family vs. two for whites, it'd take a long, long time for them to get to the point where they're the majority.

The government can't even agree to make English the main language by law.

English is the official language for US politics. If you don't speak English, you don't get to debate.
 

Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
4,057
2,118
Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about that. White Americans still make up anywhere between 66-70% of the population. At 13%, Latinos make up the largest minority demographic, but considering they only have three kids average per family vs. two for whites, it'd take a long, long time for them to get to the point where they're the majority.

Which is why I wrote not in my life time, but where I live the average is more than 3 per family and they keep on going.
I don't know who, but one comedian said (paraphrasing) if we wanted to stop the trouble in the Middle East
all we'd have to do is drop off a good load of Latino men and in 13 years it will be quiet over there.
English is the official language for US politics. If you don't speak English, you don't get to debate.

English is not the official NATIONAL language, but the primarily used language for government regulations etc.
 
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