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1458279

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After that 60 Minutes piece, I think governments are really going to go after Apple next year. They have to set an example for the rest of them!
That might be as fun to watch as a Trump debate :D Gonna get me some popcorn and kick back!

I'd love America to attack Apple. I'd love to see Apple pack it's bags and leave, then America would sit there and say "wait... what??" No, we don't want you to leave, we just want you to change who you are.

It's like the wife beater that doesn't want the wife to leave but keeps beating her. Gee honey, what's wrong? Ok, ok, I'll stop beating you so often. :D

How'd they feel when they found out Oeros are no longer going to be made in the USA?

How'd they feel when Ford spent billions building a plant in Mexico?

How'd they feel when Kraft merged and laid off thousands of people then posted record profits?

How'd they feel when the US gave Mexico billions in aid and then Mexico paid KIA 100 million to build a plant in Mexico?

How'd they feel when the government gives businesses H1B Visas and they hire tech people from India while not training Americans for those jobs?

Anyone talking about all the tax money that's lost when Ford, Kraft, and Kia aren't producing jobs in America?

That's not talked about much now is it?
 

1458279

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Wow, almost 30,000 views!

We might break the server!

Guess we found a hot-button issue.

We're waiting for everyone to finish those logic books?
 

nebo1ss

macrumors 68030
Jun 2, 2010
2,906
1,696
Italy is just the start. This is going to be a few billion across the rest of Europe. However, it will hardly put a dent in the 150 Billion they holding in cash.
 

Snoopy4

macrumors 6502a
Dec 29, 2014
662
2,968
Wow, almost 30,000 views!

We might break the server!

Guess we found a hot-button issue.

We're waiting for everyone to finish those logic books?

It's because so many Apple users are uber libs fighting for social justice. They're having a meltdown over the fact that their beloved products are the result of capitalistic activity. They don't know how to cope. It's pretty funny if you ask me. I mean, why do they think these products come from China? Do they think they make better components? No silly, it's the slave labor rates and taxes.

Now go back to putting Che stickers on your MacBooks. LOL
 

1458279

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It's because so many Apple users are uber libs fighting for social justice. They're having a meltdown over the fact that their beloved products are the result of capitalistic activity. They don't know how to cope. It's pretty funny if you ask me. I mean, why do they think these products come from China? Do they think they make better components? No silly, it's the slave labor rates and taxes.

Now go back to putting Che stickers on your MacBooks. LOL

I posted a little while back about the newest iPodTouch and how it cost more than a larger top shelf full featured phone. The backlash was HUGE! Without the product even being sold yet, they called it cheap junk and went on about the 'ecosystem'

In market studies, they've scanned people brains and found just how strong this attachment is. It's as strong as any drug addiction and it shows. It's shows more when you try to point out the addiction, they become verbally violent.

Just like in the documentary "the century of self" ... It shows how people can become addicted to the point they drown in debt. And, that's where our nation is now. Drowning in debt because of people's addiction.
 

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
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I'd love America to attack Apple. I'd love to see Apple pack it's bags and leave, then America would sit there and say "wait... what??" No, we don't want you to leave, we just want you to change who you are.

It's like the wife beater that doesn't want the wife to leave but keeps beating her. Gee honey, what's wrong? Ok, ok, I'll stop beating you so often. :D (/etc)

I'm not following you. Do you think making corporations pay taxes is akin to spousal abuse? Unlike some, I'm not wedded to the idea of corporations paying "income tax". But, given that it is the current system, I fail to see why making corporations pay what they legally owe is immoral.

It's because so many Apple users are uber libs fighting for social justice. They're having a meltdown over the fact that their beloved products are the result of capitalistic activity. They don't know how to cope. It's pretty funny if you ask me. I mean, why do they think these products come from China? Do they think they make better components? No silly, it's the slave labor rates and taxes.

Now go back to putting Che stickers on your MacBooks. LOL

I always thought that Apple produced iPhones in China because that was the best place to keep pre-production activity secret. Strange bedfellows.
 

1458279

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I'm not following you. Do you think making corporations pay taxes is akin to spousal abuse? Unlike some, I'm not wedded to the idea of corporations paying "income tax". But, given that it is the current system, I fail to see why making corporations pay what they legally owe is immoral.



I always thought that Apple produced iPhones in China because that was the best place to keep pre-production activity secret. Strange bedfellows.

"legally owe" is part of the issue. Few are saying that Apple actually broke the law in the US. In fact, I would be surprised if Apple actually did break the law because if anyone can afford good lawyers, it would be Apple.

As far as abuse goes, look at what the government does to companies they don't agree with. They used the banking system to go after companies they didn't like, but were perfectly legal. They use the IRS to attack people or companies they don't like.

They clearly use their power to attack people that aren't breaking any laws. Apple shouldn't have even had to say 1 word about what they've done because it was all legal.

How is it not abuse for someone to be attacked while not breaking any laws.
 

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
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As far as abuse goes, look at what the government does to companies they don't agree with. They used the banking system to go after companies they didn't like, but were perfectly legal. They use the IRS to attack people or companies they don't like.

Without sources I have no way of knowing what you are talking about.
 

1458279

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He's probably talking about the Lois Lerner scandal.
Yes. Not to mention the attack on gun companies and payday loans, etc...

I actually don't mind attacking payday loan companies, but it needs to be done within the rule of the law.

They also take cash from people without ever pressing any charges. The asset forfeiture laws are a joke, no due process.

They forced on company to cut trees that they were not allow to cut, then fined them for not cutting them. They wanted the land without paying for it.

They took someone's home to develop the land, then never developed the land.

The Supreme Court ruled that any government can take your property if they think they can get more taxes for it than you are paying.

The Supreme Court ruled that a farmer can't use his own grain to feed his live stock.

Plenty of examples out there.
 

1458279

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Not doubting what you're saying offhand, but back me up with some sources. There's been a lot going on concerning asset forfeitures and imminent domain recently, and not all of it is terrible news.

Though your last example does strike me as some Monsanto BS.
Monsanto is a whole new can of worms. If the food is good, why not label it?
Why are other nations banning their products.

I'm fine with research on crops that use less water and produce more. We're actually trying to address a problem we created.

Look at a graph of the world population growth. There's no way we're going to feed everyone, yet they just keep having more babies. China caught backlash over 1 child, yet look at the pollution in their cities. Look at the pollution in India.
Way too many people, no game plan to do anything about it.

Anyways, the ruling and examples, here's a few:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

http://www.youngcons.com/married-couple-claims-that-police-improperly-seized-over-100000-from-them/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
 

zin

macrumors 6502
May 5, 2010
491
6,617
United Kingdom
Yes. Not to mention the attack on gun companies and payday loans, etc...

I actually don't mind attacking payday loan companies, but it needs to be done within the rule of the law.

They also take cash from people without ever pressing any charges. The asset forfeiture laws are a joke, no due process.

They forced on company to cut trees that they were not allow to cut, then fined them for not cutting them. They wanted the land without paying for it.

They took someone's home to develop the land, then never developed the land.

The Supreme Court ruled that any government can take your property if they think they can get more taxes for it than you are paying.

The Supreme Court ruled that a farmer can't use his own grain to feed his live stock.

Plenty of examples out there.

Time and time again in this thread you have proven your ignorance on multiple subjects. The things you are spouting are outright false and/or incredibly misleading.

I know which Supreme Court cases you are referring to. I followed them intently. The criteria for determining whether an eminent domain order is valid is far more than just "if taxes go up". There are many cases that define narrow criteria for "public use"; merely because taking the land would increase taxes is not something that would unilaterally validate the order.

The Monsanto case in the Supreme Court concerned a farmer that was using patented genetically modified seeds. The case merely stated that the farmer cannot create new seeds ("second generation seeds") by planting, harvesting, and saving for the following year, without infringing on the patent, even though the seeds were not from the first/original generation of seeds purchased under license. Therefore, the second generation seeds infringed on the patent and the license. The farmer tried to argue that the patent did not apply because he was not creating the second (and all subsequent) generation seeds, the seeds were (by self-replicating), which of course is flatout silly.
 

1458279

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Time and time again in this thread you have proven your ignorance on multiple subjects. The things you are spouting are outright false and/or incredibly misleading.

I know which Supreme Court cases you are referring to. I followed them intently. The criteria for determining whether an eminent domain order is valid is far more than just "if taxes go up". There are many cases that define narrow criteria for "public use"; merely because taking the land would increase taxes is not something that would unilaterally validate the order.

The Monsanto case in the Supreme Court concerned a farmer that was using patented genetically modified seeds. The case merely stated that the farmer cannot create new seeds ("second generation seeds") by planting, harvesting, and saving for the following year, without infringing on the patent, even though the seeds were not from the first/original generation of seeds purchased under license. Therefore, the second generation seeds infringed on the patent and the license. The farmer tried to argue that the patent did not apply because he was not creating the second (and all subsequent) generation seeds, the seeds were (by self-replicating), which of course is flatout silly.
Did you see the link where they took someone's home for a developer and did nothing with it?

One of the issues here is the words of the law vs reality.
When the IRS can attack one party, some might consider that to be abusive. When the police can take your money and never charge you with any crime, some might consider that to be abusive. --- The government has a history of abusing the law. We're not allowed to know things, agreement done in secret, can't take any notes, can't talk about it. Audit based on how people vote or pray.

Force some to bake a cake for gays, while others still refuse and nothing is done.

It's called selective enforcement, they get to pick and choose who obeys the law and who gets a pass.

Many states passed laws that countered the SC. It's really an issue of people having rights to their own property.

How do you square the right to grow grain for your own livestock?

The Monsanto case is more about everything Monsanto does than any court case. I didn't even know they had a ruling. I'm talking about the rights of people to know about what they eat.
 

jnpy!$4g3cwk

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2010
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He's probably talking about the Lois Lerner scandal.


Yes. Not to mention the attack on gun companies and payday loans, etc...
(...)

This is kind of a Gish Gallop. A long list of mostly unsourced statements, a few of which might even be true in context, which actually do not add up to an argument. Like the Monsanto patent issue that you allude to-- a legal decision I disagree with, BTW, but, it means nothing in your long list of what "they" are doing.
 
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zin

macrumors 6502
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Did you see the link where they took someone's home for a developer and did nothing with it?

One of the issues here is the words of the law vs reality.
When the IRS can attack one party, some might consider that to be abusive. When the police can take your money and never charge you with any crime, some might consider that to be abusive. --- The government has a history of abusing the law. We're not allowed to know things, agreement done in secret, can't take any notes, can't talk about it. Audit based on how people vote or pray.

Force some to bake a cake for gays, while others still refuse and nothing is done.

It's called selective enforcement, they get to pick and choose who obeys the law and who gets a pass.

Many states passed laws that countered the SC. It's really an issue of people having rights to their own property.

How do you square the right to grow grain for your own livestock?

The Monsanto case is more about everything Monsanto does than any court case. I didn't even know they had a ruling. I'm talking about the rights of people to know about what they eat.

You haven't posted any links regarding eminent domain in which the land was later never used by the Government. In fact, the case in question concerned the Government taking land from one private developer to give to another for redevelopment. The new owners, private, could not obtain financing and therefore the land was not redeveloped. Nothing to do with the City Government, in fact a completely separate issue to the case.

Civil asset forfeiture is an ongoing problem with many police departments. Notably your link is about Massachusetts police, nothing to do with the Federal Government or a Supreme Court case.

Can you link to cases where people continued to refuse to bake cakes in violation of an agency or court order, and nothing was done about it?

Selective enforcement, and prosecutorial discretion, has been around since the inception of law enforcement. It's hardly about using government power to bully people and much more to do with ensuring law enforcement is efficient and its resources are used well. It's the reason a police officer might decide not to give you a ticket for going 2 MPH above the speed limit, but may do for 10, despite the fact that both are violations of the law. I'd argue that 2 MPH above the speed limit would not be a good use of resources to process the penalty, but 10 would be. A verbal warning would be enough for the 2 MPH case.

Of course, there are some people who corrupt government power, but these are in the minority. Anybody who would expect the Government to run perfectly is delusional, especially given that it's run by other human beings.

States can't pass laws to counter the Supreme Court. They are automatically invalid. Eminent domain is a constitutionally granted power to governments. In no way does this destroy the concept of private property.

How don't they have a right to know what is in their foods? Excusing the evidence that GMOs in foods are not materially different to alternative ingredients and they are very safe for human consumption, is there anything stopping consumers from contacting food manufacturers to ask if they use GMOs in their foods? If they don't disclose that information then buy from another manufacturer. It's strange that now you want the Government to enforce a regulation that would serve essentially no practical purpose, given GMO-based ingredients are not materially different to ordinary ingredients.

Why should the farmer have a right to plant and harvest patented GMOs without a valid licence? That's the whole point of a patent. If you are using somebody else's invention, which the farmer was, then you pay for it under reasonable terms with a licence. The farmer's defence was that he was not creating the patented goods, the seeds (by self-replicating) were. You actually think this is a valid defence?
 

thekev

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2010
7,005
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This is kind of a Gish Gallop. A long list of mostly unsourced statements, a few of which might even be true in context, which actually do not add up to an argument. Like the Monsanto patent issue that you allude to-- a legal decision I disagree with, BTW, but, it means nothing in your long list of what "they" are doing.

I lost interest in deciphering his words after the racial debate a couple pages back.
 

1458279

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Too often I see people just say "post a link", as if that alone would invalidate a point.

Isn't the right to take an asset without due process a federal issue? Is it somehow not the government if it is local and not federal? Wasn't the issue at hand the size and control of the government? Was that restricted to federal?

Does saying it was local address any other examples of abuse like the IRS or EPA?

Saying that people that corrupt the government are a minority, heck the people that fund elections are a VERY small percentage of the population. Does that make it more or less corrupt?

Have you researched Obama supporters that got jobs or investments after he got elected?

A bit Ironic that someone that say "post a link" wants people to call a company to find out if a food has GMO in it. What about the truth in labeling that was passed decades ago, did people lose their right to know?

How much money does monsanto give to the government, oh wait, their only one company so it doesn't matter.

These people are bought and paid for. They lie to the people and get away with it.

If you want more government you may just be in luck. When the house of cards falls, rest assured the government will try to control everything you do. Everything you eat, watch, read, and drive. Just in case someone doesn't remember, last time this happened we grabbed our guns and started killing people until they left us alone. That's when America was born. It's about to be reborn.

Not all of us need the government to change or diapers.
 

palmerc

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2008
350
225
The comments in this thread show a mixture of opinions about whether corporate tax avoidance (using legal techniques to minimize the taxes you pay) is proper/moral or improper/immoral. The question is what Cook thinks about it. Someone should ask him whether or not Apple practices tax avoidance and get a yes/no answer.

His first quoted statement (denying tax avoidance) implies that he thinks tax avoidance is improper. His second quoted statement (saying that they leave overseas earnings overseas to avoid taxes) implies that he thinks avoiding taxes is a proper business practice. It's a mixed message at best.

Right, he would have been better off if in his first statement he said that Apple doesn't evade taxes, and in his second statement he explained that there's no requirement to bring money earned in Europe into the U.S.

It is clear you want to nail down Tim Cook on Avoidance (moral issue) and Evasion (legal issue), but the latter is a crime and the former depends on what you feel your obligation is to the United States with regards to money earned abroad. I would say companies doing things like moving their legal headquarters to the Cayman Islands constitute avoidance. A move with no benefit to anyone but the company. Simply choosing to hold the money in their Irish HQ within the EU which has quite a number of employees, isn't avoidance, it is just how they have decided to operate their business. To sum up, such is the world of the multinational.

If tax avoidance and evasion are problems, the correct action is to change the laws/incentives on corporations, not complain that they should give away more money or publicly censure CEOs for doing what is very much their job.
 

verpeiler

macrumors 6502a
May 11, 2013
717
971
Munich, Germany
But what do you think they do with that saved money? They invest it into their businesses which creates jobs and opportunities... and INNOVATION.
Well, taxes are used for education, social services, subsidies and so on... And you missed the point, every small and middle-sized business has to pay taxes, why not the big ones? And I'm not talking about Apple alone.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
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Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
I'm going to have to side with Apple, Inc. on this one. Why let America TAX apple for all their revenues? Screw that. All those billions will just fill up those snake politician wallets. America cannot even understand how to budget anything financially. Trillions in debt and it just gets worse. Why let the USA have all that cash money. It's like throwing money in the lake.

Given all their design and development of products is done in the USA, they should be taxed on that output in their home country. Unless you're saying the USA isn't an American corporation. It comes down to the basic question of why should Apple get a free pass paying their due taxes when every other tax payer will be pursued for any discrepancy. Those tax dollars can be used for government policies that we Americans voted for.

So it comes down to the fact that by avoiding paying taxes in their home country on tax due for non-repatriated income, then Apple is robbing America of tax revenue.
 

1458279

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Given all their design and development of products is done in the USA, they should be taxed on that output in their home country. Unless you're saying the USA isn't an American corporation. It comes down to the basic question of why should Apple get a free pass paying their due taxes when every other tax payer will be pursued for any discrepancy. Those tax dollars can be used for government policies that we Americans voted for.

So it comes down to the fact that by avoiding paying taxes in their home country on tax due for non-repatriated income, then Apple is robbing America of tax revenue.
According to Apple's lawyers, they paid every dollar they owe. Do you have information that Apple violated any tax law?

This is where some don't understand what Apple is doing. It's perfectly legal. I'm sure they have skilled lawyers that insure they pay every dollar they owe.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
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Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
According to Apple's lawyers, they paid every dollar they owe. Do you have information that Apple violated any tax law?

This is where some don't understand what Apple is doing. It's perfectly legal. I'm sure they have skilled lawyers that insure they pay every dollar they owe.

Au contraire. We know exactly what Apple is doing. Morally and ethically it's wrong regardless if they view themselves as being legally "right". They're parking that money offshore and crying wolf about it when it should be brought home and taxed appropriately.
 
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