Tim Cook 'Deeply Offended' by BBC Documentary on Apple Factory Conditions

[Ulenspiegel]

Just for your better information:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-nearly-died-making-ipad

http://www.cnet.com/news/riots-suicides-and-other-issues-in-foxconns-iphone-factories/

http://www.wired.com/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/all/

 

[lowendlinux]

There are really two ways to solve this:

Have the world bank or whomever revalue the Yuan to something that actually reflects the state of the Chinese economy. That will make manufacturing in China less profitable, which of course means the companies will move elsewhere but eventually they'll run out of elsewhere.

Second consumers (us) stop buying new simply because it's new and we can. Buy things that can be upgraded top maintain serviceability and perhaps delay your phone purchases a year or two. Because you can upgrade something doesn't necessarily mean you ought to.

A bit of both would probably be the happy medium. I do think however that it's a naive to believe that workers will stop being exploited for a long time to come rightness or wrongness aside.

 

[apolloa]

According to that Forbes article, wouldn't cost it anywhere $2000 unless Apple were to spike their margins to cover corporate taxes. Something they wouldn't necessarily have to do, since there are tons of corporate tax breaks and subsidies available here in the US to cover that extra cost. It's a rare, rare thing for any corporation to pay their full dues here in the states.

If the tax situation were truly that steep without any ways to work around it, you wouldn't have any foreign corporations such as Nissan, Honda, and Volkswagon opening manufacturing plants here. It'd be cheaper to ship their products overseas than it would be to assemble them here.

The article does state what I figured would happen. It'd raise prices from $4 per iPhone to around $8-10 per. That's more money spent on their end, but at the same time, they don't have to exploit anyone to get it, they'd create more jobs here, and they'd still make more than enough money to turn a healthy profit.

Would it be as high? No. Apple would likely be a $550 billion company rather than a $700 billion company if they produced goods domestically. $150 billion is a chunk of change, admittedly. But you're still obscenely rich, and you've built your manufacturing chain on top of a politically stable environment. There are trade offs for everything, and you don't necessarily have to maximize profits at all costs to be a successful company.

edit: though that article does bring up one thing I never accounted for: scale. Foxconn and Pegatron are MASSIVE companies, employing a million people or more. I don't think any single first world electronics manufacturer could match that.

But if money wasn't all Apple cared about, then it would already be making it's products in the country's you mentioned. So it's pretty obvious as it selected, and continues to do so, to have it's devices manufactured by the cheapest labour on the planet, that it only cares about money. It's a business that has the best marketing team ever, because they make people believe they are somehow different. Whilst Apple laughs all the way to the bank.

 

[iRock1]

Just wow. The amount of denial – I presume most of it coming from American population – and ignorance here is just astonishing.

I can't hardly see how is fair to blame BBC or even Samsung (come on...) in this case.

People, seriously. First, Apple is not your religion nor your father's company. Once you've acknowledged that, please try to think a little bit before commenting.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Just wow. The amount of denial – I presume most of it coming from American population – and ignorance here is just astonishing.

I can't hardly see how is fair to blame BBC or even Samsung (come on...) in this case.

People, seriously. First, Apple is not your religion nor your father's company. Once you've acknowledged that, please try to think a little bit before commenting.

Well, very wise words. The main problem that this whole issue is taken as a personal insult by some.

 

[linuxcooldude]

So it's pretty obvious as it selected, and continues to do so, to have it's devices manufactured by the cheapest labour on the planet, that it only cares about money.

I already posted earlier the reasons Apple uses China & it has a lot more to do then just cheap labour.

It's a business that has the best marketing team ever, because they make people believe they are somehow different. Whilst Apple laughs all the way to the bank.

Interesting enough Apple spends much less on advertising then most other manufacturers. I also posted these links before when people always say its just Apples better at advertising then its products. And most people never seem to refute this link as well.

I think on the most part their products speak for themselves, thats why they don't need extensive advertising to promote them.

http://mashable.com/2014/04/08/samsung-apple-ad-spend/

 

[apolloa]

I already posted earlier the reasons Apple uses China & it has a lot more to do then just cheap labour.

Aaannnddddd..........????? So what? I wasn't replying to your comment so why say that? It makes no sense at all to quote someone telling them, I gave MY reasons for this earlier.
But alas, it's ALL about the money no matter what you think.

Interesting enough Apple spends much less on advertising then most other manufacturers. I also posted these links before when people always say its just Apples better at advertising then its products. And most people never seem to refute this link as well.

I think on the most part their products speak for themselves, thats why they don't need extensive advertising to promote them.

http://mashable.com/2014/04/08/samsung-apple-ad-spend/

So just because they spend less means they have a poorer marketing department then others does it? I'm sorry but plenty of people would claim Apple has the best marketing of any department, advertising costs has nothing to with it or my comment.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

...So just because they spend less means they have a poorer marketing department then others does it? I'm sorry but plenty of people would claim Apple has the best marketing of any department, advertising costs has nothing to with it or my comment.

True. Here is Apple's marketing strategy:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jaysond...he-simple-secret-to-apples-marketing-success/

 

[linuxcooldude]

Aaannnddddd..........????? So what? I wasn't replying to your comment so why say that? It makes no sense at all to quote someone telling them, I gave MY reasons for this earlier.
But alas, it's ALL about the money no matter what you think.

You said cheap "LABOUR". Labour is only a part of it. Infrastructure is just as important.

Sorry, didn't mean to strike a nerve.

 

[Zxxv]

. if they are paid $5 per phone and that increases to $10. it is not beyond me to pay the difference.

Apple - I need 2 million iPhones assembled. How much can you do it for. I have all the parts and pieces.

Pegatron - hmm 8 bucks per iphone so 16 million

Foxconn - hmm 7 bucks per iPhone so 14 million

Apple - if you can do it for 5 bucks Foxconn you got the deal cause pegatrno will do it for that.

Foxconn - Damn yes ok we'll do it for 10 million 5 bucks per iphone.

Later Foxconn bump into pegatron but are too proud to let each other know the prices they tried to haggle for and how apple played them.

 

[Max(IT)]

Beleive me, it would be very wise of you to stop constantly labeling posters.
Just try to absorb what others write and not being addicted to your own biased, blind world.

Just for your better information:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-nearly-died-making-ipad

http://www.cnet.com/news/riots-suicides-and-other-issues-in-foxconns-iphone-factories/

http://www.wired.com/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/all/

Those were Foxconn employees. Foxconn, not Apple. Foxconn.
Even if some of them were actually working on iPad/iPhone, it wasn't the device they were working on, to "kill" them. It was the way they were treated BY FOXCONN

----------

But if money wasn't all Apple cared about, then it would already be making it's products in the country's you mentioned. So it's pretty obvious as it selected, and continues to do so, to have it's devices manufactured by the cheapest labour on the planet, that it only cares about money. It's a business that has the best marketing team ever, because they make people believe they are somehow different. Whilst Apple laughs all the way to the bank.

Again: Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, Dell, Acer, Asus...........

 

[Steve121178]

The difference is Apple is one of the very few companies doing something about it.

What are they doing exactly? The documentary listed all of Apple's promises to improve conditions that have all been broken.

 

[numlock]

Apple - I need 2 million iPhones assembled. How much can you do it for. I have all the parts and pieces.

Pegatron - hmm 8 bucks per iphone so 16 million

Foxconn - hmm 7 bucks per iPhone so 14 million

Apple - if you can do it for 5 bucks Foxconn you got the deal cause pegatrno will do it for that.

Foxconn - Damn yes ok we'll do it for 10 million 5 bucks per iphone.

Later Foxconn bump into pegatron but are too proud to let each other know the prices they tried to haggle for and how apple played them.

no reasons why these negotiations are handled any differently than any other.

and im baffled by the ones that think that there isnt a correlation between the prices paid and conditions for workers.

 

[apolloa]

You said cheap "LABOUR". Labour is only a part of it. Infrastructure is just as important.

Sorry, didn't mean to strike a nerve.

Thanks for the apology

Now, infrastructure, I don't buy that because America is MORE then big enough to have these big plants built and it has plenty of workers that are capable of doing the same jobs. It is just Apple won't pay the money for that in America, because it affects their bottom line.
Hence why Apple is all about the money first and foremost. It has more then enough to build plants in America and yet refuses to do so.

But who knows, I mean at least they assemble the Mac Pro in America so maybe one day they'll do the same with their other products but looking at the Mac Pro and its cost, I think the profit margins could be higher then the last one and so they don't take a hit, but I am not sure.

 

[codo]

did you read any of those links?

I think you should try again

Panorama is aired worldwide via BBC World News

BBC World News is sold via BBC Worldwide

"BBC Worldwide Ltd. is the wholly owned commercial subsidiary of the BBC, formed out of a restructuring of its predecessor BBC Enterprises in 1995. The company exploits BBC brands, sells BBC and other British programming for broadcast abroad with the aim of supplementing the income received by the BBC through the licence fee.

In 2013/14, BBC Worldwide generated headline profits of £157.4m and headline sales of £1,042.3m and returned £173.8m to the BBC." wiki

The BBC are currently in talks to sell the Panorama programme/brand - the idea here (I believe) is to pimp the ratings to increase value but retain the BBC reporters/researchers to work on other profitable current affairs programming.

----------



you get a cookie for reading one of the links

Which part of BBC Worldwide being commercially independent from the BBC do you not understand? They take BBC programming, and sell them around the world to other broadcasters, platforms like Netflix, DVD distribution etc. For profit, yes. This profit goes back into the BBC to fund additional programming. BBC Worldwide does not commission Panorama - the programme is commissioned and funded by the television license fee in the UK. The only thing you could accuse Panorama of doing is chasing ratings - yes - but not profit.

I have read your links - you're putting two and two together and getting 50.

The sale of the brand in which you refer to would give other broadcasters around the world the right to use the Panorama brand for their own investigative documentaries. Again - it's the brand for sale, not the journalism.

Please try and understand this before commenting again. I shan't comment further, so you can have the last word if you wish. However - and please know this - you are wrong.

Merry Christmas

 

[Zxxv]

no reasons why these negotiations are handled any differently than any other.

and im baffled by the ones that think that there isnt a correlation between the prices paid and conditions for workers.

yep and I simplified it. They probably took 7 bucks per iPhone assembly, put 5 bucks into the production, pocket 2 bucks for factory improvements, profit pay offs etc

7 bucks = 14 million
5 bucks = 10 million
2 bucks = 2 million

all of this is above the heads of the majority of panorama viewers and they knew it.

disclaimer : these figures are made up. Just to show something.

 

[johnnyturbouk]

Given that each corporation, the BBC and Apple, are in it for profit, I tend to distrust the motivations of both. So real conditions are probably more convoluted and exploitative than either makes out.

1.
The issue is more with apple rather colourful supply chain, ie foxconn/peagtron - apple per se are certainly a botch above other companies.

2. The BBC is not a business that generates a profit, it is financed from tax revenues on TV licensing, furthermore, panorama, are renowned for their objective, hard-hitting and in depth journalism.

 

[ggibson913]

Well, I would imagine that Apple is not unique in this area. I would imagine that every single electronics factory in China is the same. I agree with other posters here that the spotlight seems to focus on Apple when every manufacturer who uses Chinese labor likely has the same working conditions.

 

[johnnyturbouk]

No agenda? Impartial? Now that is funny.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...C-has-deep-liberal-bias-executive-admits.html

But even with built in bias, investigative reporting can still be performed.

Hilarious how you substantiate bias by quoting the Telegraph,

 

[Ironduke]

Superb work by the Beeb

 

[A MacBook lover]

What are they doing exactly? The documentary listed all of Apple's promises to improve conditions that have all been broken.

Correction. Apple has put in demands that Foxconn must comply to, it's foxconn who is breaking promises when Apple isn't looking.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Thanks for the apology

Now, infrastructure, I don't buy that because America is MORE then big enough to have these big plants built and it has plenty of workers that are capable of doing the same jobs. It is just Apple won't pay the money for that in America, because it affects their bottom line.
Hence why Apple is all about the money first and foremost. It has more then enough to build plants in America and yet refuses to do so.

But who knows, I mean at least they assemble the Mac Pro in America so maybe one day they'll do the same with their other products but looking at the Mac Pro and its cost, I think the profit margins could be higher then the last one and so they don't take a hit, but I am not sure.

While they do currently make the Mac Pros in America now, the demand is so small it is much more achievable, not so with the rest of their products. Especially mobile.

Technology changes very rapidly and changes between the different material needed. They may stop using certain parts to switch to another. Apples not into the factory building business. It makes no sense to build a certain factory only to shut it down a few years later once they stop using a certain component.

Look at the Apple sapphire partner GT Advanced filing for bankruptcy waiting on Apple to utilize the plant.

I don't think you realize on what type of scale it takes to make every component on an iPhone. On top of that the ever changing technology into making a new model every 2 years. In quantities able to supply the whole world.

Manufacturing in America is not what it once was. China has the infrastructure, raw materials, flexibility, and manpower to pull it off. But America does not.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

...Those employees weren't working only on Apple products....

That was your statement.

You received an answer:

...Just for your better information:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-nearly-died-making-ipad

http://www.cnet.com/news/riots-suicides-and-other-issues-in-foxconns-iphone-factories/

http://www.wired.com/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/all/

And you continue, absolutely off the track, avoiding the answer that proved you wrong:

...Even if some of them were actually working on iPad/iPhone, it wasn't the device they were working on, to "kill" them...

These posts speak for themselves.

I am done with you.

 

[Keirasplace]

That was your statement.

You received an answer:




And you continue, absolutely off the track, avoiding the answer that proved you wrong:




These posts speak for themselves.

I am done with you.

You are incredibly arrogant for someone with such lightweight quips in place of substance. And that's someone who has actually seen horrible conditions first hand in west Africa for decades. You have no clue and no solution.

So, I'm avoiding you BUDDY! Go back to being a bobo, look it up. It is an insult in our province.

PS, these are you words hey, someone who "doesn't insult" :
"The main problem that this whole issue is taken as a personal insult by some"...
Someone who insults so vehemently in a passive aggressive way shouldn't utter such crud.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

You are incredibly arrogant for someone with such lightweight quips in place of substance. And that's someone who has actually seen horrible conditions first hand in west Africa for decades. You have no clue and no solution.


So, I'm avoiding you BUDDY! Go back to being a bobo, look it up. It is an insult in our province.

You judge too quickly and without any sound reason for a person "who has actually seen horrible conditions first hand".
You should have taken your time to read back. The starting point of the discussion was: the employees who tragically died were not working only on iPhones/iPads. The statement was proven wrong.
It is another question who or what killed them. But this was not the subject of the discussion. Though it is worth paying attention to.

You can never know what others saw "first hand" in life.

Nolite iudicare, ut non iudicemini! Buddy!