Too many people hate Apple for no reason

[Timo_Existencia]

So then it's not blindly defending and so has nothing to do with what I originally said.

But my point is that normal support for a product one loves get's turned into "blindly defending" in a way that such a term is hardly ever used in the forums for other products and companies I support.

Why does anyone need to counter my love of a product, blind or not? What's the point? Again, nobody ever says such things in forums I frequent about my motorcycle. Can you imagine going onto a Harley forum and complaining that Harley guys "blindly love" their motorcycles? It would be silly.

And it's silly here.

 

[boss.king]

But my point is that normal support for a product one loves get's turned into "blindly defending" in a way that such a term is hardly ever used in the forums for other products and companies I support.

Why does anyone need to counter my love of a product, blind or not? What's the point? Again, nobody ever says such things in forums I frequent about my motorcycle. Can you imagine going onto a Harley forum and complaining that Harley guys "blindly love" their motorcycles? It would be silly.

And it's silly here.

I guess I just don't understand why you replied to my comment then.

Personally, I'm here to discuss Apple stuff, not to blindly praise it. Often, I come here to find out how to fix issues or make things work better. If posts here were nothing but people people going "That's not a problem, your device is perfect" or "There's no need to change the way it works, there's zero room for improvement", do you not think that might get annoying? Obviously, that's not the case, but there are enough users here who express things of that nature when people what to have an actual discussion that it's worth at least acknowledging that it happens.

Since you keep bringing up the motorbike — imaging if you went to the Harley forum and asking what to do about a rattle you hear from the engine, only to be met only with versions of "Harley engines don't rattle, they come out of the factory perfect and never break because they're flawless". Might be a little annoying, right?

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I guess I just don't understand why you replied to my comment then.

Like I said, it wasn't personal to you. It's just the phrase you used about people who "blindly" follow Apple encapsulates my point.

Personally, I'm here to discuss Apple stuff, not to blindly praise it.

But to be honest, it's very rare that I ever see anyone who is "blindly praising" Apple. But praise of any sort frequently get's labeled as blindly following here in a way, that again, is very rare for any other product.

Often, I come here to find out how to fix issues or make things work better. If posts here were nothing but people people going "That's not a problem, your device is perfect" or "There's no need to change the way it works, there's zero room for improvement", do you not think that might get annoying? Obviously, that's not the case, but there are enough users here who express things of that nature when people what to have an actual discussion that it's worth at least acknowledging that it happens.

For example, see the thread about the Virtual Keyboard on the Apple Vision Pro. Am I blindly following Apple if I point out that I never expected the virtual keyboard to be equivalent to a physical full sized keyboard? I've been ridiculed for saying that. In my experience, it's the way that many people "bring up problems" about Apple products.

I don't recall a single thread where someone is asking for help or advice on fixing a problem in which they get ridiculed. But if you say "the virtual keyboard sucks and Apple is evil!" then you'll get pushback.

Since you keep bringing up the motorbike — imaging if you went to the Harley forum and asking what to do about a rattle you hear from the engine, only to be met only with versions of "Harley engines don't rattle, they come out of the factory perfect and never break because they're flawless". Might be a little annoying, right?

It would depend on how you phrase it. If you come in and say "Stupid Harley! My engine is rattling!" Or, even if you have a history of inane and silly arguments against Harleys and then come in with a question. But even so, Harley guys are religiously devoted to Harleys. So be it. I think blindly loving a product is more defendable than relentlessly critizing a product to people who love it. The equivalent, in my mind, would be that if as a BMW guy I was frequenting the Harley forum and I'd built a reputaiton of repeatedly criticizing Harley.

And to be honest, this is as close as I've ever come to that:

Now, if I were screaming "Harley's Suck" while riding in the middle of Sturgis, I'd likely get harrased quite a bit, and it would be my fault.

 

[VisceralRealist]

In the same way that any praise for a product gets labeled "blind", any criticism gets labeled "hate".

Liking a product =/= blind praise
Criticizing a product =/= blind hate

If you get deeply personally offended when someone doesn't like or criticizes a product you like, then you have bigger problems to deal with.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

In the same way that any praise for a product gets labeled "blind", any criticism gets labeled "hate".

Liking a product =/= blind praise
Criticizing a product =/= blind hate

If you get deeply personally offended when someone doesn't like or criticizes a product you like, then you have bigger problems to deal with.

I tend to think that positivity is more rooted in good mental health than negativity, in general.

I'll say over and over again, I'm fine with constructive criticism from anyone who wants to participate. But the rampant chidish and silly critisicms make this place nearly unbearable.

And if you don't recognize that the tone here on MacRumors is not healthy, then I don't know what to say to you.

Again, why should I have to "debate," using heated language, anyone over my support of a consumer product? That's silly.

There is a sizeable contingent here on Macrumors who actually DO hate Apple. You don't see that?

====

This you?

 

[VisceralRealist]

I tend to think that positivity is more rooted in good mental health than negativity, in general.

I'll say over and over again, I'm fine with constructive criticism from anyone who wants to participate. But the rampant chidish and silly critisicms make this place nearly unbearable.

And if you don't recognize that the tone here on MacRumors is not healthy, then I don't know what to say to you.

Again, why should I have to "debate," using heated language, anyone over my support of a consumer product? That's silly.

There is a sizeable contingent here on Macrumors who actually DO hate Apple. You don't see that?

I listen to several podcasts. There are some people who post on any new release how much this podcast sucks, how it's not good anymore, and how the hosts are lazy and annoying, etc. Those people are annoying. I ignore them. But there are also times when some episodes ARE bad, and I don't mind saying so. I pay for this podcast, and I will be honest in my feedback. I'm not one of those people who seem to hate-listen to the podcast and hate every episode--they seem to get their energy from being constantly negative and it's clear that this podcast is not for them anymore, but they can't let it go. But I do comment honestly on what I hear. Most episodes are good, some are great, and some are bad. And I don't hesitate to share all three kinds of feedback.

So you have to decide if the forum is worth it to you. I come here to talk about Apple products. Not everything I have to say about Apple products is positive. Sometimes I want to talk about how something can be improved. On an audiophile forum I frequent, posting about a problem I had with a product actually led to an improvement in a later firmware update (it wasn't based on me alone, but I did point it out as a flaw of the product, so did other people, and a representative from the company responded to us saying they would fix this flaw in a later update and they did). It can't be all positive. Being childish and insulting is obviously not good, but I don't only want to see praise. I also want people to be honest with their criticisms and their feedback. And if they don't like something and think it could be different or better, that is not the same as hatred.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Rather than positive or negative, I'd say what matters is "constructive."

If you simply want to piss on the Vision Pro, for example, and are using "criticism" to do that, hiding your clear disdain of the product in "criticism" then I don't count that as valuable in any way.

And to be honest, looking over your posts regarding the Vision Pro, that's my sense of what you are doing. I'm not saying I'm objectively right, but that's how it reads to me. And that tone is likely why you get pushback.

 

[VisceralRealist]

Well, looking over your posts, it seems to me that you get personally hurt when someone doesn't like a product that you like. And this forum isn't an echo chamber, so it's perfectly possible that this is not the right site for you. You won't only encounter praise here. It's an open forum. If a thread is literally called "Will the Vision Pro be a success?", should responses be restricted to those who say "yes"? I'm not going to go into a thread asking "those who will order AVP: what are you most excited about?" and say I'm not excited about anything and I'm not going to order one; that is a bad read of the thread's intention and entirely non-constructive. But I will post on an open-ended thread with my honest thoughts about a product.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

From what I’ve seen when it comes to phones and tablets it’s mostly the poors who hate on Apple

High end desktops seem to just be based on use, the artistic types go with Apple, gamer and needing lots of power go with PC


Laptops
Personally I really like the MacBook Pro, it’s a sexy device, great form factor and shows apples awesome build quality…but it just doesn’t compete with my PC gaming laptop when it comes to straight up power, upgradability/serviceability, connectivity, etc


Out of my close friends, all working people who make good money, all have Apple phones and tablets, the ones who game or do other intensive stuff have PCs, the ones who don’t need the power, especially the ones who travel a bunch, have MacBooks

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Well, looking over your posts, it seems to me that you get personally hurt when someone doesn't like a product that you like. And this forum isn't an echo chamber, so it's perfectly possible that this is not the right site for you. You won't only encounter praise here. It's an open forum. If a thread is literally called "Will the Vision Pro be a success?", should responses be restricted to those who say "yes"? I'm not going to go into a thread asking "those who will order AVP: what are you most excited about?" and say I'm not excited about anything and I'm not going to order one; that is a bad read of the thread's intention and entirely non-constructive. But I will post on an open-ended thread with my honest thoughts about a product.

No, I get frustrated that I and others can't have a sane discussion about a product I like becuase the thread gets over run with those who simply want to be negative.

Reading over your posts, it's clear that you've never had any intention engaging positively about the Vision Pro. So what value is your particpation in a thread about the Vision Pro? Why do you even engage?

Now, if you've shown, over time, that you're not simply a hater; for example, you've posted positively a few times about a given product, and then you provide a well-reasoned criticism, perfectly fine. Helpful even. But I get the sense that you have no intention of being helpful with regards the Vision Pro. You just don't like it.

I honestly have no idea why you or anyone would spend time engaging on a product that you don't like and have no intention of buying. It baffles me. And it disrupts conversation from those of us who are interested, who will give constructive criticism.

 

[VisceralRealist]

No, I get frustrated that I and others can't have a sane discussion about a product I like becuase the thread gets over run with those who simply want to be negative.

Reading over your posts, it's clear that you've never had any intention engaging positively about the Vision Pro. So what value is your particpation in a thread about the Vision Pro? Why do you even engage?

Now, if you've shown, over time, that you're not simply a hater; for example, you've posted positively a few times about a given product, and then you provide a well-reasoned criticism, perfectly fine. Helpful even. But I get the sense that you have no intention of being helpful with regards the Vision Pro. You just don't like it.

I honestly have no idea why you or anyone would spend time engaging on a product that you don't like and have no intention of buying. It baffles me. And it disrupts conversation from those of us who are interested, who will give constructive criticism.

Well, it is not my problem that you cannot get along with or, at best, ignore people who have different opinions or worldviews from you. Part of existing with other people in the world is learning to accept that not everyone sees things the same way you do. As I stated before, this is an open forum so there are going to be a wide variety of perspectives and opinions. You evidently want certain threads restricted to opinions that agree with your own. That is not what I and most others want. And this is not the forum for that, as I stated before.

I engage because the Vision Pro is an Apple product, it is talked about and posted about constantly, and I have every right to voice my opinion on a new product that is dominating the Apple headlines, and not just if I intend to buy it or love it the way you do. I have a right to be honest about what I think about it and how successful it will be, especially on a thread literally asking if you think it will be a success! Again I ask: do you think a thread asking "will the Vision Pro be a success?" should be restricted to those who say "yes"? Do you think such a thread should even be allowed to be posted in the first place? If a prominent supporter of this device calls someone who is skeptical "old fart" (which is against the rules and will be removed), then the supporters of this product are far from being as "positive" as you think they are.

You want me to only say what I have to say when I meet your arbitrary criteria. Frankly, I think most of your posts on the Vision Pro aren't particularly productive. If you have nothing to add other than wide-eyed praise and bickering with those who say otherwise, that is not contributing to a meaningful discussion, and the more you reveal that you can't handle any differing opinions, the more I am baffled by why you post here.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Well, it is not my problem that you cannot get along with or, at best, ignore people who have different opinions or worldviews from you. Part of existing with other people in the world is learning to accept that not everyone sees things the same way you do. As I stated before, this is an open forum so there are going to be a wide variety of perspectives and opinions. You evidently want certain threads restricted to opinions that agree with your own. That is not what I and most others want. And this is not the forum for that, as I stated before.

I engage because the Vision Pro is an Apple product, it is talked about and posted about constantly, and I have every right to voice my opinion on a new product that is dominating the Apple headlines, and not just if I intend to buy it or love it the way you do. I have a right to be honest about what I think about it and how successful it will be, especially on a thread literally asking if you think it will be a success! Again I ask: do you think a thread asking "will the Vision Pro be a success?" should be restricted to those who say "yes"? Do you think such a thread should even be allowed to be posted in the first place? If a prominent supporter of this device calls someone who is skeptical "old fart" (which is against the rules and will be removed), then the supporters of this product are far from being as "positive" as you think they are.

You want me to only say what I have to say when I meet your arbitrary criteria. Frankly, I think most of your posts on the Vision Pro aren't particularly productive. If you have nothing to say other than praise, that is not contributing to a meaningful discussion and the more you reveal that you can't handle any differing opinions, the more I am baffled by why you post here.

You do have a right. Kudos.

And I question why I continue to be here as well.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

"isheep" attitude. I feel like they're just part of a different flock of sheep. I don't really waste time on paying much attention to the people that hate on the things I enjoy or use. I use both MSFT and Apple for specific needs. It's like the bandwagon hate for Metallica. Or if you're a drummer Lars Ulrich of Metallica. It's all the same nonsense. Some of the criticisms are legit. And sometimes I agree. Prime example is the closed off limited repairability of Apple products. I vehemently disagree with the way they lock it down. But in my example of Metallica, to me it's music. And music is always subjective to taste. It's strictly personal. So I don't give 2 shts what someone thinks of them. In Summary, it's really not worth the energy thinking about the haters. Use what you want and like and live life.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I try to ignore them. I really do. But it seems like more and more the critics are dominating every thread.

It would be like going to a Metallica Rumors site and it being completley overrun with critics. It steals all the energy to discuss anything constructive about the band. And, to further your example, I'm sure there are those who like one song of Metallicas and then hate on everything else. Like those who bought an iPhone but don't have much deeper history with the company. And yes, hating on Metallica makes no sense; it's music, wholly subjective.

I'd like to be able to discuss products; I don't want to "debate" them, as if there's a moral dimension to buying an Apple product or not.

I'm sure the "debates" bump MR numbers of views; but I'd guess this is a short-term strategy for success. Seems similar to the path that Reddit has taken.

 

[VisceralRealist]

Well, yes, I think they do help MR with clicks and views. Not to denigrate this site, but they have a tendency to post threads about Elon Musk's antics, for example. Which has to do with Apple...how? I avoid those threads because they tend to get extremely toxic very fast and I have no interest in Elon Musk. I don't want to talk about him. I do want to talk about upcoming Apple products, even ones I have no intention of buying.

I can, however, think of a reason they post news about Musk: because within a few hours, the thread will have hundreds of posts and 10+ pages. Engagement is everything.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

I try to ignore them. I really do. But it seems like more and more the critics are dominating every thread.

It would be like going to a Metallica Rumors site and it being completley overrun with critics. It steals all the energy to discuss anything constructive about the band. And, to further your example, I'm sure there are those who like one song of Metallicas and then hate on everything else. Like those who bought an iPhone but don't have much deeper history with the company. And yes, hating on Metallica makes no sense; it's music, wholly subjective.

I'd like to be able to discuss products; I don't want to "debate" them, as if there's a moral dimension to buying an Apple product or not.

I'm sure the "debates" bump MR numbers of views; but I'd guess this is a short-term strategy for success. Seems similar to the path that Reddit has taken.

Yeah I can understand that. Makes sense. But that kind of sounds like click bait things you're speaking about. I see that a lot with youtube thumbnail titles. I guess the same can be said with some threads in a forum or other sites that have critics of brands.

 

[MBAir2010]

im disliking a lot today
seems to me the peon designers change the way we computer for their own humor or arrogance.
case in point album art is lost in the Sonoma upgrade along with annoying the things im tired of typing.
they fact that few Ventura users as now using Somona against their preferences hits morning is fascist, a word I used frequently in th late1990's.

then again the music is streaming perfectly on the HomePod mini
and I crated this on a Mac mini using a iPad with a pencil
and everything is fast!

so maybe they let me down today.

 

[arc of the universe]

"Too many people hate Apple for no reason"​

and, the feeling is, very much, mutual.

apple die-hard-fans see themselves as a different breed.
apple has cultivated that image, during its first few decades of existence - probably until the first iPhone was released.
Think Different
anti-Beige campaign
1984 TV ad
Lemmings TV ad

the lemmings ad in particular actually created a bit of an anti-apple reactionary wave for a while, since in that ad apple made its contempt of "non-apple" people so evident.
in that ad, apple made crystal clear what it thought of people who didn't promote apple.

so, "too many people hate apple for no reason" ? yeah, and its pretty much mutual.

but you can clearly see a difference on this point among people who all could be described as "apple friendly" people.
pre-iPhone friendly and post-iPhone friendly.
post-iPhone friendly people like their iPhone, and express deep doubts about apple as a company.
pre-iPhone friendly people are (as you could predict) hard to describe:
there are (were?) the iconoclasts. the techno-nerds; the "font" enthusiasts (apple rendered various fonts and international characters much better than windoze); and, of course, the designers. an odd amalgam that never gave apple a lot of market share. until. iPhone.

in the beginning there was apple. then with iPhone, apple become AAPL.
but it was too late. the stockmarket movements of APPL have always been known as "contrarian".
the stockmarket types dont trust apple, so they dont have confidence in AAPL.

this dichotomy and the "us vs. them-sim" was a backbone of what apple was. its heritage.
for better or worse, Tim et alia have successfully worked to tame that heritage and make it into one of the world's most highly valued companies.
the biggest difference between Steve and Tim is that Steve was a marketing type. Tim is a tactician.

but the "us vs. them-ism" is still being employed (successfully). its the same template. only the specific product features that are used to show this are different.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

[LeeW]

apple die-hard-fans see themselves as a different breed.

That is accurate, although they don't need to be die-hard on this forum. It's an Apple-specific forum, so it's no surprise it's pro-Apple everything. That said, I tire of those who often respond to criticism of any Apple product with "I feel sorry you can't afford to buy the product". Or the even more common one of "If you don't like it, go to Windows or Android".

I know plenty of people who have made their fortune on sub $1k Windows machines. I also know plenty of people who own $4k Apple laptops just to say how much it cost them and only use them for Netflix and porn.

 

[Ameer_1]

Apple is like Toyota! When there's a new technology BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche will have it in their vehicles the year after while Toyota aka Apple will add it 3 or 4 years later. Another example would be Apple Car Play a 2021 Lexus $100K SUV didn't have a touchscreen or CarPlay while a 2017 Mercedes has CarPlay and a touchscreen.

 

[Mousse]

apple die-hard-fans see themselves as a different breed.

On point, brutha. This was the main reason harbored a general dislike for Apple in the past. Pretty much the same reason I hated the New England Patriots: the annoying bandwagon fanbase. Where were those sunshine fans during the Jones/Bailey experiment?😤

My new main reason to hate Apple is their fascist my way or the highway attitude where you're forced to update/upgrade and you aren't allowed to make full use of the hardware you paid for. And the bloat.😓 Oh gawd, the bloat. This is pretty much EVERY big name developer today... Still, I hate the bloat.

Man was I a happy clam when I found out that MS had a bloat free version of Win10. It came with the used laptop I bought.🥳 You can't buy an individual license of the LTSC version.☹️

I love OSX, but the bloat of the versions after the Big Cat series...😩 Gawd, I miss the day 2GB was enough to run an advance OS. Well, I miss the days when 640K was enough to run a multitasking GUI. AmigaOS was the best OS😎 of its time, IMO.

Lemmings TV ad
the lemmings ad in particular actually created a bit of an anti-apple wave reaction for a while it was so clear.
in that ad, apple made crystal clear what it thought of people who didn't promote apple.

That 1984 ad spoof where Apple was Big Brother. Someone understood the assignment.

but you can clearly see a difference on this point among people who all could be described as "apple friendly" people.
pre-iPhone friendly and post-iPhone friendly.

I'm obviously in the pre-iPhone friendly crowd.

pre-iPhone friendly people are (as you could predict) hard to describe:
there are (were?) the iconoclasts. the techno-nerds; the "font" enthusiasts (apple rendered various fonts and international characters much better than windoze); and, of course, the designers. an odd amalgam that never gave apple a lot of market share. until. iPhone.

Apple of old had a rigid set of rules for UI. If you knew how to use System 6 (with Multi-Finder), you knew how to use every Mac OS up to 9.2. Same with OSX. The UI was consistent from Public Beta through the big cat series.

iOS changes UI almost every major update.😑

 

[XboxEvolved]

The reasons for Apple hate are long and varied throughout time. Nowadays it seems to be because they are so big (kind of like old Microsoft hate) but in general throughout time no matter how they are doing financially it has to do with their computers, and now more recently their phones.

I remember when I first got a Mac in 2003, keep in mind that Apple was doing pretty good for themselves back then thanks to iPod and iTunes, and even though they were considered very expensive MP3 players they were price competitive and FAR better than their competitors. So back then you would get hate on the iPods for being a sort of elitist device or stupid because of its price and not being able to swap out SD cards or something lol. Then you had Mac itself. I'll just say when a lot of people online and in real life that I spoke to about Apple used the word "gay" quite a bit. 😂

It seems as long as I could remember people have been rooting for Apple to fail even when they were quite literally failing.

 

[arc of the universe]

...lemmings....

thanks for your reply. appreciated it.

the ad that i was referring to is not the 1984 tv ad.

it is the lemmings ad.

the lemmings ad is not seen so much these days, but it is in the lemmings ad that you can see how apple very viscerally seethes hatred towards the non-apple-folk.
this ad would be unimaginable today.
it is apple's greatest and clearest statement in its decades long declaration of war against winbloze and microsoftees.