Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
U.S. Government Orders Apple and Google to Identify Users of a Gun Scope App
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
This sounds liek Trump administration is moving forward with their demands that social media companies and big tech "find" criminal shooters before they exist. This sort of ask REEKS of government making lists of people based on legal behaviour.
This App itself causes no harm, and unless there's evidence that it was used in the committment of a crime, than should not be providing such over reaching private data to the government.
(HA, bet many here didn't see that coming from me)
This App itself causes no harm, and unless there's evidence that it was used in the committment of a crime, than should not be providing such over reaching private data to the government.
(HA, bet many here didn't see that coming from me)
If the government had reason to believe the perpetrator of a murder was staying in a given hotel on a given night, I could completely understand them asking the hotel to turn over the names of every guest at that hotel on that night. I would not understand the government asking for the list of guests at every hotel in every city for the past 2 years as that does not narrow down the hunt for the suspect.
I am 100% against the broad "give us all the information" demands so someone can go on a fishing expedition. If 58,000 people downloaded the app from Google, there are probably at least 57,999 innocent people on that list.
I am 100% against the broad "give us all the information" demands so someone can go on a fishing expedition. If 58,000 people downloaded the app from Google, there are probably at least 57,999 innocent people on that list.
No search warrant may be necessary. Learn about the third-party doctrine.
Wow. Just. Wow.
Talk about totalitarian... I'm not a USA citizen but surely this violates some law meant to protect individuals from unlawful searches?
Talk about totalitarian... I'm not a USA citizen but surely this violates some law meant to protect individuals from unlawful searches?
So I did price it. One version is very reasonably priced and if it does what the demonstration video claims it can do, it is an amazing optic. $599-$1,299 (the $1,299 versions are not out yet). There's also a thermal imaging version that tops out at $3,299.
about $700 at Cabelas with mail in rebate....
[doublepost=1567800689][/doublepost]
[doublepost=1567800689][/doublepost]
I was just checking out Cabela's....
Exactly.
They want the data on everyone on the grounds that some of them might be violating export laws (which are themselves absurd; it's just a scope, and plenty of better ones are made/sold outside the US).
This story is not about any sort of 2A issues at all; so they say. It's about running afoul of ITAR, and perhaps EAR, regulations which is clear about who you can and cannot do transfers with when dealing with certain physical and intellectual property. Mainly defense related technology so it doesn't get into the wrong hands which is a good thing.
Many people do not care for unnecessarily or useless information collected on law abiding citizens or lawful permanent residents but the reality is that data will probably never be purged because it was part of an investigation. I too feel unnecessary data should be purged but realistically it won't.
If you feel this scope isn't all that great to begin with, imagine reverse engineering the scope and software then developing a scalable platform to range from smallish calibers to, say, 20mm so anyone could easily reach out and touch someone, so to speak. That's just sniping. How about applying it to an even larger caliber so even low budget rebels could afford to covertly eliminate distant human and material targets. IMO this isn't something big money countries are remotely interested in. Smaller countries who don't have defense support of big countries? Sure. I'd bet on it.
Many people do not care for unnecessarily or useless information collected on law abiding citizens or lawful permanent residents but the reality is that data will probably never be purged because it was part of an investigation. I too feel unnecessary data should be purged but realistically it won't.
If you feel this scope isn't all that great to begin with, imagine reverse engineering the scope and software then developing a scalable platform to range from smallish calibers to, say, 20mm so anyone could easily reach out and touch someone, so to speak. That's just sniping. How about applying it to an even larger caliber so even low budget rebels could afford to covertly eliminate distant human and material targets. IMO this isn't something big money countries are remotely interested in. Smaller countries who don't have defense support of big countries? Sure. I'd bet on it.
Last edited:
We’re all on a list. Just when we get on a whole bunch of high priority lists are we crossed referenced and given special attention.
The issue in the government's eyes is not the use of the app nor the scope itself, but to identify illegal exports by way of locations of app users. So they are looking into crimes -- illegal exports.
While I am opposed to this approach since it is a blatant invasion of privacy, I think it is pertinent to put the real issue into proper perspective (i.e. it ain't a gun control matter, but an export control matter).
Not really. Watch any police procedural on TV, and there's a good chance the cops are canvassing all the stores in town asking who bought product XXX during period YYY. This is a pretty commonplace type of police investigation. Unless the police take the next step and investigate the actual private property, or proprietary records, of the individual, it would not even qualify as an individual search, let alone an illegal one, under US/UK/French/German/Dutch/Swedish/Japanese/Canadian/Danish law.
Apple doesn’t have much of a legal choice on this one. Weapon Export regulations are “black letter of the law”. They apply to EVERY person in the government jurisdiction... so to manufacturers, stores, and even private individuals that might pack one in their luggage and leave the country.
Apple already has strict geofencing for things like Super Strong Encryption... certain levels are subject to “weapons” laws as well. (Whois why certain open source projects are hosted in Europe, because they got hosted there before the US government put them on the list.
Back to Apple though, they should have geofenced this app from any account in non-export countries. The OEM probably did not declare to Apple the software as part of a “weapon”. That requirement is almost certainly buried in the EULA that the iOS license is void in that case (just like Windows where “safety equipment”, nuclear plants, and other “ultra-high liability” uses are prohibited because Apple, Microsoft, Google cant ever accept that liability)
Apple is nailed to the wall here. Export violation investigations have very few legal limits... it’s literally “dealing in war materials”. Apple is the “bystander” here, because someone else used their platform, but they have few rights.
I’d put money on some idiot putting “scope cam” video on a YouTube channel in a non-export country (which is a stricter list than embargoes) and ICE is bringing the hammer of Hela down on them. My money would be on this “scope cam” video being used on “public” locations... (and maybe with a gun attached.. get it)
Haven't used this one, but a friend had an older ATN model. Mediocre, its what you expect from aiming through a digital camera: in bright light stuff got washed out, in low light, the image got noisy and laggy. Hard to beat the range of human eyes.
interesting and thanks for tsome additional nuance.
I still have a big problem with government over-reach like this. I know I often come across as the typical j"socialist", but I'm more of a social libertarian. if the government has no business or absolute pressing need for public safety for lists like this, I will ALWAYS speak against it.
Not saying some llists aren't necessary, but they should always be done with extreme oversight, controls, and limits.
but maybe it's just because listening to stories from my grandparents and their escape from Nazism that has led me to greatly distrust anyone who would identify and list people purely for the purpose of "keeping an eye" on them based on non-criminal activity.
We all should download the app even if we don't own the scope, just to drive the CIA, ICE and FBI nuts.
Oh jeez, now I'm on some sort of black list.
Oh jeez, now I'm on some sort of black list.
Last edited:
While I oppose this in general, why wouldn't the government limit its request to users who are registered in or have IP addresses in countries to which export of the rifle scope is prohibited. As it is the warrant seems to be asking for information on a lot of American citizens who are not suspected of violating any laws. The warrant should be narrowly construed to only apply to evidence that would support an export law violation.
On the one hand I want to enforce the law. On the other...this is far too broad a request and should be debated in the courts on merits. My guess is it will not pass merit because it is overly broad and would need to be redefined in scope (haha).
But there's a pretty big difference between asking a local store employee, "Did you see anything?" or "Have you seen this person?" And the request being made of Apple and Google. In Apple's and Google's situation they literally have a record of every single person and what he or she did.
For example, perhaps the local store employee saw nothing but the store has a security camera. Is the owner of the footage required by law to hand over the recording without any type of warrant? Because that's more like what's being asked of Apple and Google.
Right...like pay your taxes, limit your factories emissions, follow regulations with regards to opioid dispensing, have adequate protections in the workplace, hire without regard to race or gender, and on and on forever.
The govt might not have the authority for this....but the US govt has crazy authority to order us all around.
When is the public going to actually do something about this. I was hoping trump, for all his flaws, would stand up against government outreach when it comes to the fourth amendment and privacy, but he clearly doesn’t see that as an issue.