Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
U.S. Government Orders Apple and Google to Identify Users of a Gun Scope App
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
You see criminals usually obtain their guns illegally and when people can no longer own guns they become defenseless.
Taking actual guns is one thing, but these scopes are usually not recognized by e.g. airport security. As such, export control is barely executed.
Ofcourse, if you take like 10 of those at once customs will have questions and then the export control issue is more likely to pop up.
So, exporting them is not too difficult in low quantities.
...or you could just buy it outside the US and re-export from there, where export control is less strict than in the US.
So, under the bottom line, going over the app (which a trader of these might not even have installed) is far from a proportionate request in my opinion....
What's the problem with looking into people who purchased a gun accessory but never registered a gun?
If you've legally acquired the gun, ITAR is the only regulation preventing you from exporting it. (People do this regularly with Canada) So to the law, there's no difference.
You're talking theoretical. The article says ICE is intercepting a large number going somewhere. Not knowing the specific details, I suspect it's Mexico. They want to crack down on the known rings.
Export restrictions from other countries are the job of their government. The US Government is responsible for enforcing US law. Because other countries allow crime doesn't mean the US should.
because for the US to stop allowing the sales of any guns at all would essentially invalidate our entire constitution. Unless you’re talking about a constitutional amendment erasing the second amendment. Then while we’re at it why not just start tearing up all the rest of the constitution we don’t like today. I don’t think people deserve the right to a speedy trial because it costs too much money. Toss it aside... don’t really like the fact the government needs a warrant to enter homes without my permission. That slows down terrorism investigations. Toss that out too. Also there’s way too much being said that offends me, and religion is bad for the world so I guess forget the first amendment too. You either don’t understand how complicated this gun ownership issue is or you don’t care about the fundamental freedoms that made America the model of democracy for the rest of the world 200 years ago.
disclaimer: I don’t own guns and am for the banning of assault weapons.
[doublepost=1567818048][/doublepost]
I’m sure their policy is should a valid and specific court order is sent tot hem for an existing case and crime from a Judge would they consider.
Still such a scope is so freaking cool yet scary! Terminator 1984 we’ve finally caught up!
Because gun registries are illegal, an I may have inherited or purchased the gun I'm mating it to decades ago.....
When you buy this don't you have to fill out end user paperwork? I had to fill out and fax stuff when I was buying some TSCM equipment.
[doublepost=1567818808][/doublepost]
If thats the case then get a warrent on the specific ip and individual tied to the youtube account. You cant just say give me the combo to everyones locker so i can check each and everyone of them and catch criminals.
That order is an obvious violation of the 4th amendment its not even funny.
If you have a suspect and a reasonable case the go get a warrant and do it the right way.
[doublepost=1567818808][/doublepost]
If thats the case then get a warrent on the specific ip and individual tied to the youtube account. You cant just say give me the combo to everyones locker so i can check each and everyone of them and catch criminals.
That order is an obvious violation of the 4th amendment its not even funny.
If you have a suspect and a reasonable case the go get a warrant and do it the right way.
Closest thing to an equivalent law I could find is that for shipping records the government can subpoena them if they have reasonable suspicion that they will contain documents that will lead to a suspect for a crime. This is somewhat equivalent. Apple has records of shipment of an app to a customer. These records are probably more detailed and accurate than standards shipment records but contain much the same stuff. The catch is that the government can ONLY subpoena for the records that might contain the information. In this case they are doing that so it seems like it is OK.
Speculating about this, if you've ordered enough computers or computer parts that came in from overseas odds are your name and address has come up in a search by the government over a shipment which some of these items went missing. This doesn't feel that different. As long as the government obtains a subpoena for it I'd be OK with it.
That said, I didn't see anything like that mentioned...
Speculating about this, if you've ordered enough computers or computer parts that came in from overseas odds are your name and address has come up in a search by the government over a shipment which some of these items went missing. This doesn't feel that different. As long as the government obtains a subpoena for it I'd be OK with it.
That said, I didn't see anything like that mentioned...
Except exporting the software isn't illegal. It's the gun sight itself which is export controlled. Without the physical gun sight the app is next to useless, so Apple has no requirement to control its download or require it to be geofenced or any other such restriction.
As to whether they should comply with the request to identify downloaders in order to aid in an investigation seeking to find the people who illegally exported the actual gun sight, not quite sure how I feel about that. I could understand police going to every store which sold the actual gun sight and asking for details of everyone who bought it, asking for the details of anyone who downloaded the app feels one step removed from that and, even if it's not an overreach, is a bit of a stretch.
Wow. Looking in to? I don’t care what your political leanings are....but if anyone isn’t scared ******** about the government inquiring about your apps...all I can say is wow.
Yeah - But there is an expectation that the government to look into suspicious behavior. People with guns make up 100% of gun related crimes.
What makes the authorities believe the app was not downloaded just so someone could see what it was all about?
[doublepost=1567825450][/doublepost]
[doublepost=1567825450][/doublepost]
Maybe I will get the app so I can see if it could be used by a person or persons who intend to harm someone.
That sounds like obstruction of justice. You are intentionally trying to make it harder to identify criminals? /s
At this point and after reading glen Greenwalds book on Edward Snowden, I don’t doubt that Apple already gives up a lot of information but as a “public face” Apple makes it look like they don’t
[doublepost=1567826087][/doublepost]
[doublepost=1567826087][/doublepost]
Holy crap a $2k scope
I don't think anyone wants to actually face the real problem(s). Something to consider, though, is that guns and the 'silly' amendment have been around as long or longer than the country. Something else is the new factor in the equation.
As for the 'silly' amendment, it is there for a reason. If it isn't understand what that is, I can see how most of the rest of the world is confused. (For example, I now live in Canada and even being right next-door to the USA, most Canadians I've talked to don't understand the purpose of the amendment.)
Yes this would be the equivalent of going into a store and telling the owner to hand over all their customer records concerning sales of some items, so they could go through all of them looking for potential violations, rather than asking the store owner about a specific person. They need to narrow this request down more and get a court order.
For the rest of the world? Surely you are leading the deaths caused by guns. Anyway, average person should not have the need to have a gun. This nonsensical thing: "I have a right to have a gun, its my amendment" is outdated, and frankly idiotic. USA has a gun problems for the very fact that its super easy to obtain one. Do you know how hard it is in most europeans countries to obtain a gun? Do you know how many people I know with a gun in europe? Sure, I know some but they have proper licence as all of them are hunters. Then I have friends in security (again, thats fine) but thats about it. I could count all those people on my fingers. Now, lets take this to USA and almost every other person has it.
Anyway, I don't want to argue. I've learnt over the years that its impossible to talk sense to americans when it comes to guns. Lets talk about something else
[doublepost=1567831994][/doublepost]
It was there for a reason. But back then the times were different. The amendment needs to be amended
Good Call Apple. Americans are Crazy. and can not be trusted. As a Brit. you are ALL our Slightly Retarded Cousins..we love you...but you all need to stop shooting each other. you have NO IDEA how stupid you look to the rest of the planet. all this NRA is good is just CRAP. you need the ** right to bear arms ** removing from your constitution, it was based on the times when it took 3 MINUTES TO RELOAD A WEAPON for christ sake ! .. sort your selves out ...
This has nothing to do with gun control. And Apple’s precedent on government demands is reassuring.