Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,150
1,116
Central MN
According to the Amazon website, their tablets receive at least 4 years of security updates after the product is no longer for sale. Even though it is not a true Android device, it is an example of how Android is different.
Apple products update until they are no longer compatible with the newest OS.
My Samsung tablet came with Android 9. Updated to 10, then 11.
Game over. It will loose all support from Samsung before my Fire tablet does.
So switching to Android for the sake of side-loading isn't as easy as you think.
The fact there are differences is one of the arguments as to why Apple should be forced to change things that are not crucial/harmful. Each option had pros and cons — that goes for any product/service. Apple chooses not to allow other stores on iOS, iPadOS, and AppleTV. Samsung and many other Android offering companies choose to limit OS level updates to two years/two major releases. And that involves security patches. Maybe lawmakers should force companies to endlessly support software. I am sure there are at least a few households with Windows XP PCs that might benefit. Maybe they just have not posted enough hate messages to social media. Yeah, that’s probably it.

Despite whatever valid reasons or opinions anybodt has for either side, the bottom line is this proposed law, the Apple v. Epic war and it’s results are primarily a fight of who has financial entitlement, not “rights.”
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,413
7,268
Midwest USA
So, you are the source? ? Sorry, not buying it. I've been using Macs as my primary computers since 2005 and have had ZERO issues installing any software I want. The most I've had to do is go into System Preferences > Security & Privacy to verify I want to open an app from an unrecognized developer (but this only has to be done once for those apps). Also, I have no idea what you're talking about with the double-clicking. I double-left-click to open files and apps all the time. And apps in the dock only require a single click to launch. Files or apps in stacks also only require single click. Do you actually use a Mac? LOL!
Maybe you need to pay more attention then. I own an Original Macintosh that I purchased new and have written and sold Mac software since System 1 (1984). It is just possible that I am in a better position to extrapolate Apple trajectory than you, since I have more than 20 years of additional experience.

You cannot, today, install any macOS software that is not approved by Apple by double clicking. Today, it can be installed by selecting a drop down menu. But how hard is that to disable. Since I write software for Apple devices let me explain. It is dead simple to disable this functionality. Apple can do this with a 1 line change of code.

So Apple has in FACT gone from no restraints on software installation to almost disallowing all non-Apple approved software on macOS. There is only one final step. There is no rational reason to believe that they won't take that last step. You know to protect the children. It kind of makes sense because it seems that most of the tech world these days employ children, or at least people that never matured past their childhood.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,413
7,268
Midwest USA
? Hiding… Okay.

It’s those words that get displayed when setting up a device, you scroll by, then click (I) Agree without any consideration.




Oh… And:


the_more_you_know_banner-1.jpg
But find me a link where this has been held up in court. I can write anything in an agreement and it does not mean a thing until it is held up in court. In fact, most companies like Apple have avoided this going to court because they cannot predict the outcome.

You see there is this small problem. I pay my money at the Apple store for an iPhone, then take it home. I have bought the phone. I did not agree to any software agreement when I bought my phone. Period. If Apple disables my phone they have stolen my money. That is just the way the law works. Hmmm.

Imagine taking your car to the gas station and filling it up. Then you find out that your car won't start because you did not use the brand of gasoline the car manufacturer required. The car manufacturer was only thinking about the engine and making sure you used the most expensive gasoline because that was best for the engine.

You think that would stand up in court. Of course not.

Until this is challenged in court, it is just a big dark spot that everyone walks around and fanboys like to spout about. Does not change the fact that it is wrong.
 

ender78

macrumors 6502a
Jan 9, 2005
602
353
But if developers decide to not put apps on the App Store, and only make them available through other ways… thinking they can make a little more money… You haven’t just gained choice. You are then forced to either obtain it through that alternate method, or not at all.
This is the exact problem with the Mac App Store. It’s a ghost town comparatively. I don’t like having to Google various software, figure out where to download it, try to determine if it’s even a safe source… and then hand over financial info to that source. And then is the problem of subscriptions. I have to try to remember who I have subscriptions with, when they renew, how to cancel, etc. on the App Store it’s all easy to view in one place.
It’s okay to disagree, but please don’t pretend this is all benefit with no downside.
Furthermore, we have NOT seen developers come out and say, if we sold something in the App Store for $10 and were allowed to side load, we would sell it for $7.05 in their own App Store or a competitive store. This is primarily about developers keeping a bigger share of the pie and not passing any of the savings to consumers.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,406
9,840
Columbus, OH
Furthermore, we have NOT seen developers come out and say, if we sold something in the App Store for $10 and were allowed to side load, we would sell it for $7.05 in their own App Store or a competitive store. This is primarily about developers keeping a bigger share of the pie and not passing any of the savings to consumers.
Even if devs didn't pass a single cent of the savings on to consumers, I'd still rather the millions of devs, some big and some small, keep some more money than have it go to the most valuable company in the world to hoard more cash.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GloboGymLLC.

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,150
1,116
Central MN
In my opinion, if Apple sticked with fees to things the App Store actually sells and provides distribution facilities for - software programs - we would probably not be having this discussion. But no, they put the long term revenue aside, risk it all, go for the short term revenue and go after the value digital services bring to their platform charging for their sales in app. There is no Miracle here.
I agree, the reality, these App Store conflicts are primarily battles of greed. Claims of security are just padding.

One of the original problems of the App Store is publishers not realizing/adapting to a different revenue model. Traditionally, software publishers could/would charge for every application release. As competition grew, companies rewarded loyalty by offering discounts (i.e., upgrade pricing). The App Store publishing model essentially treats every update as incremental — a mistake by Apple. So, companies were forced to support ongoing development without ongoing revenue — a reasonable complaint. Over the years, some publishers have adjusted:

1) Publish a major app release under a new app ID
2) Tie new features to unlock fees
3) Subscription

As always, there comes along a group that ruins it for everyone. Now we have more and more developers implementing unethical revenue tactics:

• In-game currency is now currency - Forget ‘play’ money, we require currency exchange.
— The creators of the Monopoly game sure missed out.
• Other micro transactions/DLC - Even if the scenario has no need for fake money err a custom currency, you’re still going to pay (real) currency to add that virtual cap, use the photo filter, etc.
• Baseless subscriptions - Do you want to share this content with your friends, track your daily workout, add alert/alarms? Great! Sign up now for our premium service. You know, those features that require no additional effort and time by the developer(s).
• Excessive ads - Take your turn -> ad -> take another turn -> ad -> complete a level -> ad, choose another tab -> ad, etc

Here we are, Apple did not change the arrangement/agreement but suddenly has an increased flow of revenue. Okay! Great! — if you claim you would react/behave otherwise, that’s a lie.

An off the cuff analogy, think pawn shop. The shop has customers that sell their iPhone each year as they upgrade to the latest model. Rather than annually, a half-dozen of the “regulars” offer up an iPhone, iPad, and Mac every few weeks, making a variety of claims as to why the frequency increased. Sure, that may seem suspicious, however, the sales will provide substantially more income. The owner did not request more products or promise greater compensation for larger quantities, but it is a benefit. So, the shop owner goes along with the seemingly win-win scenario. Eventually, a few customers threaten, “No more offers, you’re going to pay me exactly what you sell this stuff for. I am the one doing the work.” The owner refuses, reminding there's no interest in changing the shop’s policies/behavior and these customers can take their business elsewhere. They stomp away and return with picketers. Ultimately, both sides stubbornly stand their ground.

How do lawmakers get involved? Typically, they are the hired goons turning to the person promising the highest payment.

Go ahead, support this circus, it’s certainly a conversation starter/piece and distraction. Sadly and slightly frustratedly, even if I simply walk by, the likely disastrous outcome will affect me in some way. Also sadly/frustratingly, I have significant doubt anyone will create an actual solution.
 

Smearbrick

macrumors 6502
Jan 12, 2013
415
799
Central PA
If it were that simple… but you, just as almost everyone who is in favor of this have no idea about average peoples behaviors and all the things that social media and hackers will come up with…
Yeah… I don’t care about average people’s behavior. Just like I don’t really care if people install anti-malware software on their PCs or surf the web behind VPNs. As a rule I don’t involve myself in the affairs of others. I’m not concerned with their ability/lack of ability to understand basic information security.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nt5672

jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
10,244
26,814
SoCal
Yeah… I don’t care about average people’s behavior. Just like I don’t really care if people install anti-malware software on their PCs or surf the web behind VPNs. As a rule I don’t involve myself in the affairs of others. I’m not concerned with their ability/lack of ability to understand basic information security.
You just expect Apple to serve YOUR needs, and yours only, forget about the others…
 

jameslmoser

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2011
696
669
Las Vegas, NV
Baloney. I don't buy the above. But ymmv was to what your opinion of this is. Maybe these same companies should develop on android where google is giving them a break.
The fact you think this is baloney is your opinion, but I happen to know for a fact working for multiple companies discussing wether or not to create native apps, this has been part of the discussion. They wouldn't have even been complicated apps. Considering the immediate 30% cut and the fact your app might not even get approved by apple for some reason or another and its a much bigger risk.
 
Last edited:

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
The fact you think this is baloney is your opinion, but I happen to know for a fact working for multiple companies discussing wether or not to create native apps, this has been part of the discussion. They wouldn't have even been complicated apps. Considering the immediate 30% cut and the fact your app might not even get approved by apple for some reason or another and its a much bigger risk.
To not have your app approved would have to be porn, sex, drugs, or any other category of apps that Apple historically doesn’t approve or deems classes of apps not suitable for various reasons. If one wants to make money from apples’ platform, when the outlay is $99, a computer and sweat equity and balk at 30% is some thinking I can’t understand. But that’s me.
 
Last edited:

usagora

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2017
4,869
4,451
Maybe you need to pay more attention then. I own an Original Macintosh that I purchased new and have written and sold Mac software since System 1 (1984). It is just possible that I am in a better position to extrapolate Apple trajectory than you, since I have more than 20 years of additional experience.

Yet here in 2022, I'm able to install any software I want on my Mac, so I guess I must be living in an alternate universe than you.

You cannot, today, install any macOS software that is not approved by Apple by double clicking. Today, it can be installed by selecting a drop down menu.

I have absloutely, positivley NO idea what you're talking about. I've installed apps from unidentified developers and the only difference is when you LAUNCH the app AFTER it's installed, macOS will block it from opening until you approve it under Privacy & Security. Installation, however, is NO different. If it's a .dmg file, I simply double-click it to open it, then either drag the app to the Applications folder or double click the installer. I've NEVER had to right-click anything (and I'm not even sure why that would be such a big deal to you even if it were true).
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
At best that would change only where my funds go rather than 60% of U.S. consumers.
Yep, it’s great that a manufacturer is producing a popular product people want to buy(voting with ones dollars), but if one feel bad for the devs that the big, bad tech companies are ripping them off vote with your dollars. Devs should do the same thing. Pull their apps from iOS App Store and “show apple.” No needless ill thought out badly written laws that government is so capable of doing is needed.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,406
9,840
Columbus, OH
Yep, it’s great that a manufacturer is producing a popular product people want to buy(voting with ones dollars), but if one feel bad for the devs that the big, bad tech companies are ripping them off vote with your dollars. Devs should do the same thing. Pull their apps from iOS App Store and “show apple.” No needless ill thought out badly written laws that government is so capable of doing is needed.
Agree to disagree. I like the government making sure companies aren’t taking advantage of their power against the little guy.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
Agree to disagree. I like the government making sure companies aren’t taking advantage of their power against the little guy.
Yep, agree to disagree. Government shouldn’t micro regulate legal business practices. They could legislate a law capping vipergts2207 earnings to $x/hour because they can…
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,406
9,840
Columbus, OH
Yep, agree to disagree. Government shouldn’t micro regulate legal business practices. They could legislate a law capping vipergts2207 earnings to $x/hour because they can…
It’s all opinion here, but classifying a law partially aimed at the most valuable and one of the most powerful companies in the world as micro-regulating is a conclusion that seems rather poorly thought out. Especially when what’s being regulated directly impacts millions of small businesses and tens of billions of dollars worth of commerce. But that’s just me. It’s impact is certainly many orders of magnitude larger than a theoretical law capping the income of a single person.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
It’s all opinion here
Okay I’ll take it as such.
, but classifying a law partially aimed at the most valuable and one of the most powerful companies in the world as micro-regulating is a conclusion that seems rather poorly thought out. Especially when what’s being regulated directly impacts millions of small businesses and tens of billions of dollars worth of commerce. But that’s just me. It’s impact is certainly many orders of magnitude larger than a theoretical law capping the income of a single person.
All the more reason for the government to keep their mitts of successful systems and let market forces rule. It’s a slippery slope in my opinion.
 

Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,273
1,150
Lisbon, Portugal
To not have your app approved would have to be porn, sex, drugs, or any other category of apps that Apple historically doesn’t approve.

That is not factually true. Stadia and MS Cloud Games native apps were not allowed on user smartphones … neither they market apps and both companies were ready to comply with the existing policies than … Apple came up running making new policies specifically targeted to those. Unless you believe that they belong to those categories or distort the schedule in the policy changes.

Meaning, you don’t need to on the “immoral” side of the businesses or not wanting to comply with existing policies to get your app refused.
 
Last edited:

Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,273
1,150
Lisbon, Portugal
Android is the answer then.

It’s not the answer when 50% of your customers use an iPhone. Which is not far from reality when 50% of US smartphones users … bought an iPhone. Digital businesses had nothing to do their customers choice of smartphone if not for the fact that they, the businesses, worked hard to contribute to enriching the iOS ecossystem with their value by serving their customers.
 
Last edited:

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,406
9,840
Columbus, OH
Okay I’ll take it as such.

All the more reason for the government to keep their mitts of successful systems and let market forces rule. It’s a slippery slope in my opinion.
You could argue that every single law in existence is just the start of a slippery slope. That’s why it’s a fallacy in the first place.

“I can’t own a nuke?! What’s next I can’t own a machine gun? Then after that they’ll ban simple shotguns. Eventually they’ll be taking our knives! We have to be allowed to own nukes, otherwise it’s a slippery slope and they’ll eventually be coming for our kitchen utensils!”

We’re capable of regulating our laws and regulations.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: MacCheetah3

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
You could argue that every single law in existence is just the start of a slippery slope. That’s why it’s a fallacy in the first place.
Nope straw man. Some laws are necessary and make sense actually and are actuallly what the government should doing.
“I can’t own a nuke?! What’s next I can’t own a machine gun? Then after that they’ll ban simple shotguns. Eventually they’ll be taking our knives! We have to be allowed to own nukes, otherwise it’s a slippery slope and they’ll eventually be coming for our kitchen utensils!”
More straw man.
We’re capable of regulating our laws and regulations.
Sometimes, sometimes not.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.