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bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2017
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Your first comment is admitting the truth: the AAA gaming market didn't really view iOS as a competitor. That's why the mobile cloud gaming services being sold on iOS via the browser are NOT really a parallel to the experience of a contemporary Windows gaming PC or bleeding edge gaming console. iOS is just a supplemental market for AAA oriented companies. The idea that it's somehow critical to getting those games to consumers has no basis in reality.

As for your second comment, if deciding whether to spend $5 on an individual game or Apple Arcade subscription was really much of a barrier then the entire PC/console gaming industry would never have been viable.
Ok but by that argument, Apple should’ve been ok about letting cloud gaming apps into the App Store as that weren’t that much of a threat. But they haven’t.

And I don’t buy that it was because they had to vet each game & each game needed to listed separately on the App Store. These were obviously terms that Microsoft couldn’t accept.

After all, that don’t insist on this for Netflix or for Amazon Audible or Kindle etc.

Given that we saw Resident Evil Village demoed last week for apple silicon having natively run games is obviously important to them.

I think they want to see a world where AAA games can be successfully run from the cloud, with the platform that the user uses being largely immaterial.
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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then there is developer support because without them the OS is doomed to fail.
(…)
There is a reason windows mobile, blackberry died and companies dropped out of making hardware, crappy hardware, poorly designed UI's and lack of developer support.
Microsoft with Nokia had very good hardware - and a well designed UI in their phones.
And I don’t think Blackberry went down due to their hardware or UI either.

It’s all about developer support.
 
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djphat2000

macrumors 65816
Jun 30, 2012
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If that were the case, Apple wouldn't sell as many devices.
Specs do matter, but in Apple's case. Even when under spec'd to competitors. Apple's products tend to
1) Just work. Especially well within "their" eco-system. AirPods, watch, Mac.
2) They have brand loyalty. People "know" Apple. If they sell it, it's worth a look to see if you like it.
3) Specs don't always equate to actual real world performance. They tend to overachieve with lower (on paper) specs.

Samsung, Google or some Chinese company would quickly snap up their market share and Apple would be gone from the smartphone market. Why? You said it yourself: if specs matter, someone else will sell a smartphone to rival the iPhone at hundreds of dollars less.
I can't remember the name of the Chinese manufacture that basically copied Apple's design and even more recently just sells mobile phones with the absolute highest end specs of any device out there. But, they and others do make higher spec'd devices (at least on paper) than Apple does. Samsung, Google/Pixel, Sony and others sell "higher" spec'd devices (again on paper) than Apple. They all seem to get a decent piece of the pie. They do all run Android (or their flavor of it) thought, so that may or may not hurt what they could potentially do if they had another OS option. Which is why Apple does not have the highest marketshare of the group. In the US, its higher but globally not as much. They sell more than enough devices to make money, yes. But they are not outselling their competition.

So yes, Apple doesn't outsell the competition. Others are selling devices cheaper and on paper "better" than what Apple does. They don't wipe Apple off the map because it's Apple, and not LG (when it comes to smartphones).
I have little doubt they'll try to, by leveraging their patent portfolio, if a viable competitor emerged.
That's fair for anyone though. That's why we have patents.
But the companies aren't actively preventing others much from giving it a go.
Sure, they're trying to entice and "tie" customers to their ecosystem ...but so does everyone else.
Exactly. Any company needs to keep making their product better so that people will want to stay with them. I don't like the idea that any company is "tying" you to their product. To me that's nonsense. I have a choice to stay or go.
And any company that leaves room for another one to improve upon a feature or service that the first company neglected too. Can succeed in opening up a new market, product, service, etc.
It is - and don't think you'll disagree with me on this - a result current market conditions that discourage other competitors from "giving it a go" and emerge. It costs billions to develop a physical product - and since "everyone" already has a smartphone and is invested in the app and services ecosystems and, more generally, used to its user interfaces and way of working, it's very uncertain whether enough people are going to switch to an emerging competitor's system - while they'll be bleeding billions of dollars.
One suggestion is that you find your niche. Lets use SpaceX as an example. I know many people thought that NASA was it for anything space (or government agencies of other countries). You want to put something in space, you go to NASA. Now, we can go to SpaceX. They can send people to space, they can put satellites up. They can do things NASA can't do with rockets. But, they started with reusability. Something NASA did not fully get right. The Shuttle was reusable, but not the tanks. They figured out a way to save A LOT of money getting things up to orbit. They bled money to do it, but it paid off.

And Elon used money he earned from other companies he owned to build SpaceX. I'm not denying it's not going to take a F-Ton of money to get something started. But, it's not impossible. Just have to figure it out, it's hard. But it maybe worth the risk.
I think what we're (probably) disagreeing on is this

You'd probably argue along these lines:
"The market has decided (at least for the time being).
YES
On which mobile OS and App Stores are popular with whom and why.
YES. And if people (actual people not representatives of people) want more options on iOS. They should petition Apple to do so (allow it). And if Apple doesn't, they stop buying it. Vote with your dollars.
The companies developed their products as they pleased - and customers adopted them as they liked the products - by exercising true choice.
YES
That's what lead to current market conditions and should be respected and not be interfered with by government intervention and regulation."
YES, as long as that happened by following the rules. YES, it should be allowed to continue as is.
And I'd say customers choice is severely limited - because there's just two dominant platforms whose policies are often so similar that they seem to be implicitly colluding. And that operators are abusing their gatekeeping role for anticompetitive behavior.
We would have to prove this. And at least one thing against this argument is that Apple started well into the heights of the smartphone market. You had many options to pick from. For business, for consumer, and for those that simply wanted a basic phone to call people with. Their (Apple's) entrant into his market was stock full of competition. At lower or higher price points. Consumers (people) voted with their money.

Now for the abuse of their "gatekeeping" role. Apple didn't push anyone out of iOS. So we can't say they are anti-competitive. They didn't have competition within the OS to push out. They (Apple) most likely took the approach of the phone being the infrastructure of a physical store. And the AppStore being the registers, shelves, and people making the place function. You (the customer) walked into the building, and browsed the store and made a purchase. Same as you would any physical store. Or not, maybe you just browsed. Apple didn't build say, a Mall. Where Apple could be a store amongst other stores. That's not what they built. So that is why I don't agree with these gov't rules/regulations being proposed/implemented. They want something to be what it is not. Could it be? Yes, if Apple wanted to build that it could be. Just like macOS "Could" run on an iPad Pro. But that isn't what we have. And I don't believe anyone should be forced to build something they don't want to.
Again, these companies aren't much at fault for current state of the market, for the dominance they've achieved. It's just that the results are (sometimes) undesirable.
That's totally on perspective. I'm sure Apple is happy with the results of their work in this regard. I'm sure Motorola and Blackberry are very much NOT. It's only fair if you're the winner. Governments shouldn't be picking winners and losers. They should be promoting a fair playing field for anyone to compete. But not tipping the balance in favor of one or the other. If any company is simply too successful or there are too few (duopoly). But they have done nothing wrong. They should be left alone. Maybe tax them more. And use that additional revenue to lower the taxes on a new startup? Maybe provide an easier or more incentivised means to get some patients to be FRAND. At least the company that made it can still make money off of its use in another system. Or a patient troll can't extort and never actually use a patient that could be of great benefit to society.

I'm sure we can get creative in ways to get more competition, while not preventing those that got us here. Demoralized, and possibly disinterested in continuing to develop products and services people actually want.
Technically yes, they're cellphones. But I don't see or know people that are using them primarily as cellphones. They're using them as messengers, internet browser, etc. Much more than as a cell phone.
They are not technically a cell phone. They "are" a cell phone. Otherwise an iPod touch would be the most popular device vs the iPhone. And Apple would continue to make iPod touches if it was at least worth it to do so.
Going to space is largely funded by the government or government entities - not consumers.
Not every satellite is for the government. Star-link WI-FI satellites are supposed to be for consumers.
It's privately funded, and charges commercial customers and government(s) to put things in orbit. That's how it makes money to keep going. At some point they will start selling seats to put regular folks into orbit. For fun. Same for Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin.
👉 Why not? What do you think are the reasons? Their OS is pretty good, isn't it?
Their OS is VERY good. It's my preferred desktop OS. I have been using a Mac since I was 5 or 6 at my public library. Only to play Where in the world is Carmen San Diego. And in College for audio engineering.
My reasons for why they will not be more dominate in the desktop OS space is.

1) They don't license out their OS. If they did, it would be more popular for those that don't want to spend on a Mac.
2) The iMac and Mac Mini made a difference, it brought the price down. But, you still need a Mac to run macOS.
3) Microsoft was always cheaper and good enough. They also keep legacy support for MUCH longer than Apple would.
4) The areas Apple stayed relevant (Audio, Graphic design, arts) was too niche. Business use is more common/cheap.
5) They don't play nice in the business world. As above, they make changes MUCH faster than a business would like.
6) Cost again, but this was always mistaken by many. It may cost more upfront, but less later.

There are more, but that's off the top of my head.
 

djphat2000

macrumors 65816
Jun 30, 2012
1,091
1,130
Microsoft with Nokia had very good hardware - and a well designed UI in their phones.
And I don’t think Blackberry went down due to their hardware or UI either.

It’s all about developer support.
Microsoft should have bought both of them. Blackberry and Nokia. Blackberry for business. Get rid of the blackberry mail (whatever it was called and it's price) and just made it active sync (free included). Put office on it, and business related applications. Promoted it as such. A safe, secure, trusted platform for busines.

Nokia could have been for the consumer (prosumer) crowd. Wide open for application development and deployment (just like Windows desktop). It could work in a business environment (Active Sync/MDM for less hardware cost) and provided all the camera, and media support consumers would want. You could go super techie or super cheap. And still cover the basic flip or slim phone for basic calling.

And for extra measure, because Google was more or less giving away Android. They could have properly licensed the OS for anyone else that wanted to make a mobile device.

I think the Nokia Microsoft UI wasn't good. Hardware was ok. Blackberry's hardware evolved too late. Touch screen everything with iPhone was just a better way to go.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,283
2,607
Apple's products tend to
1) Just work. Especially well within "their" eco-system. AirPods, watch, Mac.
2) They have brand loyalty. People "know" Apple. If they sell it, it's worth a look to see if you like it.
3) Specs don't always equate to actual real world performance. They tend to overachieve with lower (on paper) specs.
That’s the point: all these are mostly functions or results of the software.
And at least one thing against this argument is that Apple started well into the heights of the smartphone market. You had many options to pick from. For business, for consumer, and for those that simply wanted a basic phone to call people with. Their (Apple's) entrant into his market was stock full of competition.
I disagree on that. Neither did they create the first smartphone nor did they create the first smartphone that could run installable third-party apps.

But they basically launched (together with Google) the market for mobile computing devices that could rival PCs, i.e.

1. Access the „entire“ internet like a desktop computer (as opposed to dedicated mobile internet technologies like WAP that never took off - less Flash though, they they managed to kill in the process ;)
2. Run „desktop class“ applications

These were game-changers in the phone market. Android almost beat them to it, before Steve - as the tale goes - gave in and Apple announced an SDK shortly before Android.

Both Apple and Google parlayed their first-mover advantage in that market to the dominance in the smart market that they still enjoy today.
They are not technically a cell phone. They "are" a cell phone. Otherwise an iPod touch would be the most popular device vs the iPhone. And Apple would continue to make iPod touches if it was at least worth it to do so.
The iPod touch would be the most popular device - if it had cellular connectivity - internet on the go. Maybe not in the US, but in developing nations.
My reasons for why they will not be more dominate in the desktop OS space is.
I‘d add a 7th that’s most important: third-party applications and developer support. You can get everything for Windows.
I think the Nokia Microsoft UI wasn't good
I think it was very good - though a bit different. I think Microsoft just made two crucial mistakes, or history may have gone entirely different

1. They were late to the party in developing a mobile-first OS (Windows Mobile pre v7 didn’t feel like it) and gathering developer support
2. They foisted the same tile-based interface on their Windows (8) desktop OS - and it was universally hated, creating very negative vibe for it, when it made perfectly sense in phones.
 

djphat2000

macrumors 65816
Jun 30, 2012
1,091
1,130
That’s the point: all these are mostly functions or results of the software.
AirPods have chips specific (hardware) to enable pairing and audio functions to work. A and M series chips have specific hardware features that software can take advantage of.
Yes, software is needed. But you need the hardware first to write software for. For instance your camera software maybe great, but if you don't have camera hardware, it's useless. Without having deep knowledge of the hardware and what it can do and how it does what it does. You can't optimize software for it. You end up with Android running on a variety of hardware, and not necessarily optimized for any/many of them. Same goes for Microsofts OS. It's generally behind what hardware can do.
I disagree on that. Neither did they create the first smartphone nor did they create the first smartphone that could run installable third-party apps.
I never said they were first. They were first in changing the approach to what a smartphone could be. You had much more complicated devices at the time. Most doing a few things well, but not all of it well enough. We had 3rd party apps on such devices to (side loading). That didn't save any of them. And Microsoft being the arguably easiest to develop for (Windows CE, Metro). They failed because people didn't buy it. They failed because they didn't offer a compelling reason to stick with that product over Googles or Apples.
But they basically launched (together with Google) the market for mobile computing devices that could rival PCs, i.e.
Lets not give too much credit to Google here. They came "after" Apple. And after Apple showed what the iPhone was, they changed plans to be more like "it" than like Blackberry.
1. Access the „entire“ internet like a desktop computer (as opposed to dedicated mobile internet technologies like WAP that never took off - less Flash though, they they managed to kill in the process ;)
Thankfully they killed flash. Took awhile but it happened.
2. Run „desktop class“ applications
Not something that happened right away of course, but it is now very much to the point you can operate on an iPad or iPhone (less so) independently of a normal computer for many tasks.
These were game-changers in the phone market. Android almost beat them to it, before Steve - as the tale goes - gave in and Apple announced an SDK shortly before Android.
I Still think you give Google too much credit.
Google won (the war) because they are open (like Microsoft) and provided the OS to anyone that wanted to make a device. Apple is as Apple has been. Closed, and will not allow licensing of their OS. Which will forever keep them smaller in marketshare than they otherwise could be.
Both Apple and Google parlayed their first-mover advantage in that market to the dominance in the smart market that they still enjoy today.
We all should be able to acknowledge the "risk" in this endeavor. Many tried their hat in this arena. Many failed. There was no guarantee of any future success. We could all be on a better version of WebOS/PalmOS just as easily as we could be still buying up Blackberries. For taking the risk, they deserve the reward that comes with winning. If they cheated to do it, then we nail them to the cross. But as far as I can tell, it was done by consumers picking them over the competition.
The iPod touch would be the most popular device - if it had cellular connectivity - internet on the go. Maybe not in the US, but in developing nations.
But that's what cellphones... Never-mind.
I‘d add a 7th that’s most important: third-party applications and developer support. You can get everything for Windows.
Yet Windows mobile failed. They would have brought the biggest/largest amount of developers to the platform by default. This should have been an easy win for Microsoft.
I think it was very good - though a bit different. I think Microsoft just made two crucial mistakes, or history may have gone entirely different
Metro could have worked. And at least it looked different enough to be "different" from both Android and Apple.
1. They were late to the party in developing a mobile-first OS (Windows Mobile pre v7 didn’t feel like it) and gathering developer support
Which is the argument I make as to why Apple has a different OS for iPhone/iPad vs the desktop macOS. When people say why can't we just treat the iPhone/iPad like the Mac and do whatever we want. It's simple, it's not built for that purpose. Microsoft did exactly what you just said. Tried to merge all of it into one (looking at least) OS for Server/desktop/laptop/touch/mobile. There is a reason why Apple did not do this. It's the same reason they don't put a touch screen on their laptops. There belief that these devices are separate from each other. They may have many overlays/commonalities. But they are not the same exact thing, and should be treated as such. Whether anyone accepts that or not is up to them when they purchase said devices.

Developers go where the money is. Maybe it wasn't as easy for developers on Windows mobile as it was for Google and Apple? IDK.
2. They foisted the same tile-based interface on their Windows (8) desktop OS - and it was universally hated, creating very negative vibe for it, when it made perfectly sense in phones.
Yup. Don't forget Window Server 2012 had tiles too. Like why?
 
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