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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,366
3,936
What makes you believe that 10 nm is a thing, when Rocket Lake appears to be a complete backport of Ice Lake to 14 nm process(!)?

Rocket Lake is a mainstream S and U product line ( https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/microarchitectures/rocket_lake ) It isn't what Intel is doing on the SP ( and likely W ) line up at all.

Got pointers to there there is definitive backporting or folks just hoping? Stuff like this

"... The Sunny Cove microarchitecture is the first new design that can be used on multiple nodes, and even though Intel has stated the new core will debut on the 10nm node, ...and it means Intel could choose to use Sunny Cove with 14nm processors as well. ... "
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-sunny-cove-gen11-xe-gpu-foveros,5932-4.html

is a bit wishful. Sunny Cove cranks up cache sizes and also has bigger AVX512 unit. Without a process shrink the die would grow substantially in size. Intel could do it but the max core count would drop. I suppose Intel could do that if they simply just wanted to do 4 core max , max clock hot rod chips. But that has next to nothing to do with the Mac Pro ( or iMac Pro or Mini or somewhat likely iMac ). Certainly not for Apple's laptops. Intel is already cranking up the die size to do 10 core for Comet Lake. Cranking it up again for that same bump in core count seems a bit much.


"Rocket" is a decent indication of possible of being some kind of 'hot rod' chip.

It may be I/O chipset and socket compatible. What seems to be spelled out explictlly on roadmaps in that at least a version variants will be coupled to 10nm Xe GPU solutions. Rocket Lake may also have a refactored solutions for the security "band aids" that Intel has added so far ( often more fixed stuffed into default loaded microcode than a real silicon level fixes. ).

That is not what Intel is doing in the Xeon SP space. The Xeon W has historically taken modified die from that queue since "core count" is a check list feature in this space.

"... At present, Intel is already sampling Cooper Lake and Ice Lake processors with customers, and claims that it is on track to ship these CPUs in volumes in the first half of next year. ..."
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14314/intel-xeon-update-ice-lake-and-cooper-lake-sampling

Ice Lake SP probably isn't going to increase core count over the Cooper Lake solutions. There is no "back port" queue up either.

"...Following the Ice Lake Xeon in 2020, Intel plans to release 'Sapphire Rapids' processors for servers in 2021. These chips will likely be made using Intel’s 10++ nm process technology and will rely on a new microarchitecture along with various enhancements to optimize performance in various workloads. ... "

[ Sapphire rapid's corer is Willow Cove which cranks up the baseline transistor budget even more with even bigger caches. ]

For SP and W chips Intel is just going bigger in package and socket size to cover that they are behind the curve on shrinkage. Higher product price tags will absorb some of that 'blow'.


I was accused by usual suspects for reading AMD's marketing material. What if Intel is blatantly lying, and 10 nm is a dead process?

It isn't a dead process. Intel has spent way to many billions adding to 14nm capacity to walk away from 10nm completely in a very short period of time. The same equipment can be used for 10nm. It just takes longer to "bake" than 14nm. Intel is also looking to farm off more chipset and secondary stuff to 3rd parties. ( again looks like they are opening up more room for higher margin CPU production that takes more than average space ).

Intel's 7nm is different fab equipment that you just don't pick up at the local electronics store. If didn't order it 2-3 years ago then not going to get it in 2020.

What Intel is calling 10+ and 10++nm is substantially different than what they first tried at 10nm. Intel probably won't make any huge progress on core count but it will work. Especially at the relatively lower clocks in the Sever level products ( where more workloads are highly to massively either parallel or concurrent). 10nm isn't going to be a good drag racing node but Intel doesn't need a "drag racing" chip in this space much at all.


I would like to point out, that 16 core Ryzen CPU uses like half of the power of 18 core Xeon, while being faster in most tasks.

Chuckle ....... and TR3 comes in at 280W TDP and the W 3245 (16 core) comes in at 205W TDP.

Ryzen is highly unlikely to be every used in a Mac Pro. iMac's perhaps


Yeah, that won't affect the sound pressure of the iMac/iMac Pro, at all...


It would have zero impact on the iMac Pro noise level.

The iMac ..... if Apple chucks the 3.5" HDD and similarly upgraded the thermal system, then itcould easy fall into the same category.
 

ct2k7

macrumors G3
Aug 29, 2008
8,369
3,436
London
I'll just go with 16 from the get go and be done with it I think.

All this talk about it being outdated from the start... it was absolutely the same with the nMP back in 2013 and yet here we are 6 years later and it's still cashing in for me on a daily basis. I think the panic is overblown. There's always gonna be something better on the horizon. Just BRING ON THE DAMN CTO PRICING! o_O
Agreed!

I am thinking of going with either the 12 or 16... more likely the former and maybe more GPU but not sure yet, need the BTO pricing first.
 
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tevion5

macrumors 68000
Jul 12, 2011
1,966
1,601
Ireland
Agreed!

I am thinking of going with either the 12 or 16... more likely the former and maybe more GPU but not sure yet, need the BTO pricing first.

Same, while the 8-Core is probably enough for me for now, I plan to use this machine for a long time so the 12-Core variant which also allows for faster memory is probably a smart option. BTO prices permitting of course...

I'll be using it for audio production and software development so the stock Radeon 580 will be fine. But more CPU threads are always welcome.
 

Chevron

macrumors regular
Jul 31, 2019
100
57
Absolutely, once the dust settles a little with regards to Catalina and music production software I jumping on a 12 or 16 core.

Looking forward to seeing the benchmarks on the nMP
 
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thisisnotmyname

macrumors 68020
Oct 22, 2014
2,438
5,251
known but velocity indeterminate
Agreed!

I am thinking of going with either the 12 or 16... more likely the former and maybe more GPU but not sure yet, need the BTO pricing first.

Depending on the BTO price I'm looking at 24 core. I'm buying many units for my employees (and one for myself) so if Apple stacks a large margin on top of retail M-variant pricing it would add up and I'd fall back to the 16 core instead.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,366
3,936
Depending on the BTO price I'm looking at 24 core. I'm buying many units for my employees (and one for myself) so if Apple stacks a large margin on top of retail M-variant pricing it would add up and I'd fall back to the 16 core instead.

The M-variant pricing was a bit silly for Intel before. Now (that EPYC is about to ship in higher volume), in the workstation space, it is somewhat suicidal. There are some corner cases where they might survive in the Xeon SP space with Optane DIMMs and high user count workloads.

If Apple is counting on Intel buzz to allow them to pass on that kind of " 1> TB " tax and not take a substantive hit on sales, they are drinking too much Cupertino kool-iad . That is something they'll probably need to trade for missing core count max and base price levels at this point. There is a bit of a reprieve that TR3 is didn't move up on RAM capacity ( protecting a bit EPYC profits ). That's a huge get out jail free card though.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,330
2,004
Berlin
What do you guys think will be the sweet spot if single core performance is also super important (I’m asking because I rely on after effects a lot)? 12 or 16 core? I come from an 8Core trashcan and am looking for a significant speed boost. I plan to spend about 10k.
 
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tevion5

macrumors 68000
Jul 12, 2011
1,966
1,601
Ireland
What do you guys think will be the sweet spot if single core performance is also super important (I’m asking because I rely on after effects a lot)? 12 or 16 core? I come from an 8Core trashcan and am looking for a significant speed boost. I plan to spend about 10k.

I reckon you'd be well in the running for a 16 core with a budget of 10k unless Apple decide to reach new heights of mad with the BTO pricing. Assuming like me you're prioritizing CPU above everything else.

Memory and storage upgrades will without doubt be better value aftermarket anyway.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,021
1,820
I dunno why people are expecting Apple to have super crazy BTO pricing on stuff like processors. They’ve never historically done that versus higher markups on RAM (which is lower than historically now that it’s mostly soldered, and below OEMs like HP) or storage (which is more reasonable at high densities but pretty ridiculous at the low end.)

The price for processors is usually closer to the retail cost of the actual chip (Apple doesn’t really credit you for the base chip you’re replacing in a machine.) The equivalent(ish) iMac Pro 18-core for instance is $2500 and is a $2400 upgrade on Apple’s site. So I expect it’d cost around $4100–4700 to upgrade to the W-3275 in the Mac Pro judging by the price on ark.intel.com.
 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,694
I dunno why people are expecting Apple to have super crazy BTO pricing on stuff like processors. They’ve never historically done that versus higher markups on RAM (which is lower than historically now that it’s mostly soldered, and below OEMs like HP) or storage (which is more reasonable at high densities but pretty ridiculous at the low end.)

The price for processors is usually closer to the retail cost of the actual chip (Apple doesn’t really credit you for the base chip you’re replacing in a machine.) The equivalent(ish) iMac Pro 18-core for instance is $2500 and is a $2400 upgrade on Apple’s site. So I expect it’d cost around $4100–4700 to upgrade to the W-3275 in the Mac Pro judging by the price on ark.intel.com.

Right. Apple prices it to undercut you buying the CPU on your own. Not by a huge amount but by enough.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,330
2,004
Berlin
I reckon you'd be well in the running for a 16 core with a budget of 10k unless Apple decide to reach new heights of mad with the BTO pricing. Assuming like me you're prioritizing CPU above everything else.

Memory and storage upgrades will without doubt be better value aftermarket anyway.
Yea memory I’ll get aftermarket and storage isn’t a big deal for me as I still have two promise Pegasus 24TB raids here that will continue to use. This mac is rarely gonna leave them ever I suppose. Sure it would be awesome to have 2TB SSD but I think it’s not necessary. I aim for a Single Vega II. I hope it’ll be fast enough and I could still add a second one later if I wanted I guess...
 
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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,330
2,004
Berlin
So if the 16 core costs about 2000$ by itself, it is gonna cost about 1500 more as an upgrade probably?... leaves the very exciting question how much the Vega II and the afterburner will be. I alread realize I’ll lost likely have to shelve out more like 11k..
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
912
Beyond the Thunderdome
I'll just go with 16 from the get go and be done with it I think.

All this talk about it being outdated from the start... it was absolutely the same with the nMP back in 2013 and yet here we are 6 years later and it's still cashing in for me on a daily basis. I think the panic is overblown. There's always gonna be something better on the horizon. Just BRING ON THE DAMN CTO PRICING! o_O
There isn't that much difference (or frustration) among the nMP and the imMP, both left people behind, both despite being"modular" upgrading (or trying to) actually didn't add greet flexibility or lifespan, while many people purchased the nMP with d700 GPU and 6 core CPU and base RAM storage to later cheaper upgrade to 16 core etc (Xeon v2 where then moreless easy to find), the imMP will be either expensive or difficult to find CPU upgrades, and at least what we foresee GPU upgrades won't improve it that much given new macOS restrictions and only options where AMD Vega and maybe navi in the future.

Given we have cues apple at least is toying with Ryzen CPU I won't advise to small independent developers to invest in a imMP unless you're a video producer with deep pockets and loves macOS (most popular macOS video tools are available in windows, where if you need you have more powerful and cheaper options, a.e. s new trx40+Threadripper 3960 costs less than 2500 (CPU+mb+case+psu) add this your favorite GPU(s).
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,366
3,936
.....
The price for processors is usually closer to the retail cost of the actual chip (Apple doesn’t really credit you for the base chip you’re replacing in a machine.) The equivalent(ish) iMac Pro 18-core for instance is $2500 and is a $2400 upgrade on Apple’s site. So I expect it’d cost around $4100–4700 to upgrade to the W-3275 in the Mac Pro judging by the price on ark.intel.com.

But the Mac Pro's tech specs don't designate that they'll be selling at W-3275. They are doing the W-3275M and it posts for another $3K on top of that. Is Intel going to back off of that? Maybe. They haven't so far. Is Apple going to pass along that back off (maybe some fraction of it, but not likely all of it if Intel list prices hold) ? They effectively haven't done that as there is no pricing .

Or maybe Apple will fold on that one and add non -M versions to their BTO line up.
[automerge]1574889791[/automerge]
Yes, but if you plan to buy a base imMP to upgrade it as it was a barebone, few bad news, Intel shortage of CPU (Cascade-lake Xeon) won't allow you to find a cheaper way to a decent imMP, at least not soon, if someday Intel's chip shortage turnout before Cascade lake is discontinued.

if avoiding the -M ( $3K for > TB RAM tax ) there absolutely is cheaper paths if seriously don't need > 1TB of RAM.

The supply may be tight for a couple of months but Cooper Lake and Ice Lake versions should so up later in 2020 which will reduce demand enough to make supply better. If believe all of the impeding certain absolute doom for Intel with the TR3 comments there "nobody" is going to buy the systems so that too will make the supply better also.

the only way the supply stays low is if demand stays high. It will probably be higher than what the TR3 doom driven is , but not to the point there is no easing as get into 2020.


Also given the compatible motherboard (no cheap server mob is compatible) are too very expensive, will be either expensive to repurpose the bundled 8 core processor or resell as a used part.

Eh? There aren't going to be some $99 discount specials, but we are talking about coming in less than $6K for a completed system price point for someone with a trusty screwdriver and a tube of thermal paste and no commercial quality control for volumes. HP saves off a $1K off their systems. Someone digging in discount bins can probably do better.

People will be able to build w-3200 series workstations themselves in the Windows PC and Linux space.
 
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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,330
2,004
Berlin
There isn't that much difference (or frustration) among the nMP and the imMP, both left people behind, both despite being"modular" upgrading (or trying to) actually didn't add greet flexibility or lifespan, while many people purchased the nMP with d700 GPU and 6 core CPU and base RAM storage to later cheaper upgrade to 16 core etc (Xeon v2 where then moreless easy to find), the imMP will be either expensive or difficult to find CPU upgrades, and at least what we foresee GPU upgrades won't improve it that much given new macOS restrictions and only options where AMD Vega and maybe navi in the future.

Given we have cues apple at least is toying with Ryzen CPU I won't advise to small independent developers to invest in a imMP unless you're a video producer with deep pockets and loves macOS (most popular macOS video tools are available in windows, where if you need you have more powerful and cheaper options, a.e. s new trx40+Threadripper 3960 costs less than 2500 (CPU+mb+case+psu) add this your favorite GPU(s).

I recently had to work in windows again and it was awful!
Never again!

What das the imMP stand for? New short form that I missed AGAIN? ;)
Don’t like this one.
 
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fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,021
1,820
But the Mac Pro's tech specs don't designate that they'll be selling at W-3275. They are doing the W-3275M and it posts for another $3K on top of that. Is Intel going to back off of that? Maybe. They haven't so far. Is Apple going to pass along that back off (maybe some fraction of it, but not likely all of it if Intel list prices hold) ? They effectively haven't done that as there is no pricing .

Or maybe Apple will fold on that one and add non -M versions to their BTO line up.
[automerge]1574889791[/automerge]


if avoiding the -M ( $3K for > TB RAM tax ) there absolutely is cheaper paths if seriously don't need > 1TB of RAM.

The supply may be tight for a couple of months but Cooper Lake and Ice Lake versions should so up later in 2020 which will reduce demand enough to make supply better. If believe all of the impeding certain absolute doom for Intel with the TR3 comments there "nobody" is going to buy the systems so that too will make the supply better also.

the only way the supply stays low is if demand stays high. It will probably be higher than what the TR3 doom driven is , but not to the point there is no easing as get into 2020.




Eh? There aren't going to be some $99 discount specials, but we are talking about coming in less than $6K for a completed system price point for someone with a trusty screwdriver and a tube of thermal paste and no commercial quality control for volumes. HP saves off a $1K off their systems. Someone digging in discount bins can probably do better.

People will be able to build w-3200 series workstations themselves in the Windows PC and Linux space.

Ah yeah, my mistake. Either way the point holds though—Apple isn't going to be bilking you more than Intel is.

(also guessing that only the 24 and 28 are the M variants given the RAM details on the Apple page? So ~$2K for the 16c.
 

ekwipt

macrumors 65816
Jan 14, 2008
1,054
353
I think possibly we will see a competitor to Playstation 5 and Xbox from Apple next year. Possibly called Apple TV Pro, it will be able to play games from notably the Steam Store and will also come with a VR headset. That's what the new Apple APU will be used for. Further down the line I think we'll see a full AMD switch up by Apple, including Threadripper, Ryzen and the full lineup. Once this knowledge becomes public the AMD share price will soar even further...
 

jinnyman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 2, 2011
762
671
Lincolnshire, IL
So we’ve whiplashed back from “The Mac Pro is too high end” to “the Mac Pro is not high end enough.”
Pretty much. Apple gave up on prosumers, and it appears that they also want to just cash in on high-end users with horrible cost/price ratio.
Only thing left is Apple tax. I think their apple tax for 7.1 is all-time new record.
 
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ekwipt

macrumors 65816
Jan 14, 2008
1,054
353
With the 32-core AMD Threadripper 3970X and the upcoming 64-core 3990X next year, can we still justify paying for a 28-core maxed out Mac Pro in 2019?

I’m afraid people will start building dual boot hackintoshes aside Windows on the AMD platform that will be twice as cheap and double/ triple the performance by end of next year.
So we’ve whiplashed back from “The Mac Pro is too high end” to “the Mac Pro is not high end enough.”

The Mac Pro is just stupid expensive and coming out at a time when it's cost to performance ratio doesn't make any sense at all coming out next to Threadripper, by the time people actually get their hands on the machine there's going to be a 64 Core chip (Double the freaking cores) with more PCIE bandwidth, Higher RAM timings, PCIE 4 NVME drives and Faster Graphics cards
 

jinnyman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 2, 2011
762
671
Lincolnshire, IL
The Mac Pro is just stupid expensive and coming out at a time when it's cost to performance ratio doesn't make any sense at all coming out next to Threadripper, by the time people actually get their hands on the machine there's going to be a 64 Core chip (Double the freaking cores) with more PCIE bandwidth, Higher RAM timings, PCIE 4 NVME drives and Faster Graphics cards
I'm really eager to see Apple's BTO price.
If we see same kind of Apple tax on CPU option as well as graphics, I will laugh out so loud :p
 
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