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Bento.Box

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2022
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IDGI… “up” is volume up, “down” is volume down. Like every phone…(?)

Only if you hold it vertically. But the iphone is a keyboardless phone, so it has more than one orientation. For playing games, taking and viewing photos and videos, watching youtube etc., you usually hold it horizontally.

On the ipad, it becomes much more clear, because there is only one way it fits with the keyboard and apple pencil. And it operates opposite to, for example, the Nintendo Switch.
 

mpavilion

macrumors 65816
Aug 4, 2014
1,460
1,072
SFV, CA, USA
Only if you hold it vertically. But the iphone is a keyboardless phone, so it has more than one orientation. For playing games, taking and viewing photos and videos, watching youtube etc., you usually hold it horizontally.

On the ipad, it becomes much more clear, because there is only one way it fits with the keyboard and apple pencil. And it operates opposite to, for example, the Nintendo Switch.
Ok, but you said “the rest of the world” does it differently, and it’s the same as every other phone
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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I see what you’re saying however if Apple produced a phone that’s not as slippery or easy to crack and damage as current iPhones, they’d look completely different and lack the current aesthetic. The reason iPhones look so stylish is because of the materials from which they are made.

We wouldn’t have glass backs, for instance, if phones were not intended for use without a case.

I have used all different kinds of iPhones since the 5/5S/SE design and I can say they are all considerably more difficult to hold without dropping. All larger phones are prone to being dropped which is why I personally swear by cases and screen protectors. This is true for Apple or any other manufacturer.

Companies such as Oppo and ASUS, etc… provide clear cases out of the box with their phones.

All phones larger than an iPhone SE are designed to be used with a case. Those who refuse to use cases have to be exceedingly careful and conscious of what they are doing when handling their devices.
Right, ergonomics and durability are not in terribly high demand when it comes to phones. The mainstream market prioritizes style, and phone manufacturers are happy to give them that, especially when it allows them to charge higher premiums (for bigger devices made of nicer materials).

I don’t think larger phones are really designed to be used with a case—meaning the designers aren’t thinking about cases when they’re coming up with the phone’s design. They design a standalone phone, and they also market it standalone. Cases are marketed separately even if the same company sells both. Phone designers probably don’t enjoy the fact that people put cases on their products and cover their meticulous work. But they probably acknowledge that most people feel it’s a necessity. Case designers are obviously happy though.
 
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subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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Do you ever put your caseless iPhone flat on the table with the cameras down? Tricky for any recent iPhone.
Do you mean that to say iPhones are designed to be used with cases? I don’t think that’s necessarily proof. It could just be a trade off that Apple was willing to make to keep their phones slim/light and cameras competitive.
 

Mikeske

macrumors 6502
Jan 14, 2012
440
331
Washington
Case or careless it really does not matter to me. Since I have a issue of 40+ plus years of working in a factory setting working on aircraft and because I wanted a particular brand of cell phone and that was the iPhone. I never used cases on my iPhones before I dropped my iPhone 7 down 3 flights of stairs and smacked the concrete floor and that phone came out of my abuse with a dent in the corner and that was it.

The next day I was at a electronics store and bought a Otterbox Defender case. In some places a case is needed and especially in a industrial setting.

The other issue some folks have mentioned was the fact sleep/power button was moved from the top to the side and if you really look close You have all those sensors, camera, Face ID all jammed across the top of the phone and almost no room for the button because everyone wants a phone without a bezel so they shoved the sleep/power button over onto the side of the phone. By also placing the button on the side it eliminates the need for another wire going from the button to the main board of the phone. the side button just pushes a switch on the main board.

For the most part it does not matter unless a person is absolute klutz like me or in particular my wife taking lots of screen shots and she is using a iPhone SE 2022 and of course it is based on the iPhone 8 and all of them have the button on the side.
 

Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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Right, ergonomics and durability are not in terribly high demand when it comes to phones. The mainstream market prioritizes style, and phone manufacturers are happy to give them that, especially when it allows them to charge higher premiums (for bigger devices made of nicer materials).

I don’t think larger phones are really designed to be used with a case—meaning the designers aren’t thinking about cases when they’re coming up with the phone’s design. They design a standalone phone, and they also market it standalone. Cases are marketed separately even if the same company sells both. Phone designers probably don’t enjoy the fact that people put cases on their products and cover their meticulous work. But they probably acknowledge that most people feel it’s a necessity. Case designers are obviously happy though.
Yep. Using a case is more of a necessity with a larger phone as they are more likely to be dropped. The glass backs of modern phones also mean that once they are dropped, they are more likely to break. You’d probably get away with not using a case with an iPhone 6, 6S and 7 however the 8, SE2 & 3 are far more fragile and, as such, should be used with a case. They weren’t designed with cases in mind, but the materials used, which are both fragile and slippy, make cases a necessity in my opinion.
 
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Do you mean that to say iPhones are designed to be used with cases? I don’t think that’s necessarily proof. It could just be a trade off that Apple was willing to make to keep their phones slim/light and cameras competitive.

What I am saying is that the current protruding cameras make using the iPhone without the case more complicated in some situations. Whether you are willing to accept this inconvenience or not is, of course, your personal choice. I personally do not feel comfortable with the phone lying on its high-end camera lenses. Now Apple could resolve this problem by making iPhones thicker (which would also give us more battery space), yet so far they chose not to for some reason. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

mpavilion

macrumors 65816
Aug 4, 2014
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The other issue some folks have mentioned was the fact sleep/power button was moved from the top to the side and if you really look close You have all those sensors, camera, Face ID all jammed across the top of the phone and almost no room for the button because everyone wants a phone without a bezel so they shoved the sleep/power button over onto the side of the phone. By also placing the button on the side it eliminates the need for another wire going from the button to the main board of the phone. the side button just pushes a switch on the main board.

The button was moved long before Face ID or bezel-free design… they clearly did it b/c it was harder to reach top of phone with one hand as the phone got bigger.
 
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“You are holding it wrong!”, LOL. Seriously, though, if you hold it with one hand, resting it on your little finger and supporting the back with three other fingers, you can easily reach sleep-wake button with your thumb, with or without a case.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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What I am saying is that the current protruding cameras make using the iPhone without the case more complicated in some situations. Whether you are willing to accept this inconvenience or not is, of course, your personal choice. I personally do not feel comfortable with the phone lying on its high-end camera lenses. Now Apple could resolve this problem by making iPhones thicker (which would also give us more battery space), yet so far they chose not to for some reason. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Oh, yeah that’s definitely another benefit to having a case.
By the way, I wish Apple made the camera housing extend along the whole top edge of the phone instead of asymmetrically huddled in one corner. It would keep it from wobbling. But maybe they can’t fit other components in the top edge like Face ID then.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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Right, ergonomics and durability are not in terribly high demand when it comes to phones. The mainstream market prioritizes style, and phone manufacturers are happy to give them that, especially when it allows them to charge higher premiums (for bigger devices made of nicer materials).
I wanted to add- I think other reasons that phone manufacturers are happy that consumers prefer large size and style in phones over ergonomics and durability, are that broken phones mean more revenue from repairs and sales of replacement phones. And they can sell cases on top of that. So it really works out for both parties.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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Just to be clear, I don’t mean it’s Apple’s fault as in they are to blame for people dropping their phones. People are responsible to know what they’re buying and to take whatever reasonable precautions they need to prevent mishap. Even if Apple made a product that’s as fragile as a soap bubble, it’s still not Apple’s responsibility if people buy it and pop it, because people should know that’s what soap bubbles do. Apple would only be at fault if they lied or strongly misled in their marketing.

What I’m really saying, at the risk of repeating myself but hopefully I’m reiterating more clearly, is that if the majority of the target market of a product feels that the product is unreasonable to use by itself, ie. that an accessory (phone case) is necessary, then the product has failed itself and its own goal, because it didn’t meet its target audience’s need. And not meeting one’s target is by definition a failure. If it was a small minority of people using cases, that would be a different story. Then the design would have mostly succeeded. But as it is (assuming most people use cases), it has mostly failed.

I think the only way these phones have mostly succeeded in their design is if Apple did intend for the majority to use a case. But I don’t think they did. Because if they did, then it should have been apparent in the marketing.
I think I have to correct myself. Apple is just giving people what they want with unergonomic fragile phones, so they didn’t really fail in their design. Their goal wasn’t to make a standalone product, it was simply to give people what they want (I presume). And people happen to want a phone that requires a case. So if I look at it that way, there is no failure.
 

Bento.Box

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2022
224
121
Do you mean that to say iPhones are designed to be used with cases? I don’t think that’s necessarily proof. It could just be a trade off that Apple was willing to make to keep their phones slim/light and cameras competitive.

The iphone without a case doesn't have a surface with a lot of grip. It's polished metal, not designed to prevent slipping out of your hand or down an inclined surface.

The display is also not protected against the environment, e.g. by an additional, exchangeable cover.

Clearly, the designers did not intend to use such a device without a case, as it would be very non-ergonomical. It would be rejected during initial user testing.
 

Bento.Box

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2022
224
121
Ok, but you said “the rest of the world” does it differently, and it’s the same as every other phone

Every remote control for TV, stereos, every Laptop and other devices I know of function by pressing the right button to increase volume and the left button to decrease the volume if they are placed side by side.

Many phones are/were not meant to be used horizontally (e.g. Motorola Flipout, Blackberry, Nokia E61, all the non-smart phones usually). There are exceptions like the Nokia 9500 or the XPeria Pro and as far as I can remember, it didn't do the volume backwards. I might be wrong though.

I get that in vertical mode, it makes sense to have the volume up/down, but it would be very easy to change the buttons when the phone is operated in horizontal mode as they do not control the amp directly.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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The iphone without a case doesn't have a surface with a lot of grip. It's polished metal, not designed to prevent slipping out of your hand or down an inclined surface.

The display is also not protected against the environment, e.g. by an additional, exchangeable cover.

Clearly, the designers did not intend to use such a device without a case, as it would be very non-ergonomical. It would be rejected during initial user testing.
The user ergonomic testing argument doesn’t really make sense. Usually if a product fails a test, then they redesign it until it passes, not go ahead and sell it and assume customers will buy something else to compensate for the failure. Because then what was the point of the test? It didn’t matter if it passed or failed if they sell it anyway.

Not to say these phones are ergonomic. Obviously they are pretty far from it. But unergonomics doesn’t prove that cases are the designer’s intention.

These unergonomic phones are being sold because the market overwhelmingly demands big non-one-handed phones made of smooth premium materials. And this is enough reason for these unergonomic phones to exist. No other thought about “but how are customers going to not drop and break these?” is required. When demand is this strong, and people are willing to pay these prices, companies will zip their mouths and sell it to them. Of course they know it’s not ergonomic and they know people are going to use cases. But acknowledgement is not the same as intention.

And I think cases are probably not the conscious intention, for two reasons.
One (and this is the big one for any company), why go out of your way to worry about something you’re not responsible for? Companies won’t get in legal trouble if people drop their phones. In fact, they only stand to profit from repairs and sales of replacement phones. I’m imagining this from a company’s perspective.
Two, from a human perspective, most designers who are proud of their work don’t typically like to have their creations covered up by cheap plastic, so it doesn’t seem like something they would intend.

Cases and unergonomic premium phones exist because the market wants what the market wants. But to me the situation is a bit odd and conflicting. I find it strange to want premium materials only to cover it up. Wouldn’t less premium be more ideal then? Wouldn’t it be better to just have a phone made out of the same material as the case? It would probably be less bulky that way. Or is it enough just to see and feel the premium phone once when you buy it, then put a case on and know it’s premium underneath? I don’t quite get the logic of it all. (I’m talking about the user who leaves their case on, which I believe is most people.)
 

BigDO

macrumors 65816
Dec 9, 2012
1,297
1,987
I thought i'd get used to the completely exceeding poor positioning of the power button on the right side of the 12 mini. It's such an elegant phone that I don't use it with a case which is so much more satisfying to use. However it appears that it's meant to work with a case because without a case the power button is very difficult to easily press without hitting one of the volume buttons, so i end up taking a screenshots when I want to sleep the display or I sleep the display when i want to adjust the volume. It's as if Apple decided that it's ok to have this ****** design decision because it will be used in a case.

I never used the mini with a case and never experienced this problem.

You’re probably holding it wrong.
 

VuvuzelaiPhone

Suspended
Aug 15, 2022
168
333
I wish people would cool it with all the “premium” stuff. This is culture and marketing at work. There are of course advantages and disadvantages to using different materials.

Premium is a placeholder for what we value. It stands to reason that we could place a premium on different materials with a different set of conditions. Culture and marketing may clash however.

It seems clear based on purchasing patterns that people prefer Pro models. Is that because of the materials? Or because of the marketing? I would argue it is more of the later. Meaning Apple could make it out of whatever they want (not really, but you know what I mean) and people would buy it.

That said, there are nice things about the materials. They are shiny and in some ways more durable. The trade off is they are pretty slippery.

I think subjonas is correct in that they are designed for cases. The first piece of evidence is that Apple in fact produces their own cases. Ignoring that, I think you could dig deeper into how the design would need to change to see that designing them for cases is actually good design.

Assuming the material choices are intentional (i.e. being chosen to meet an important set of standards/desires) what would Apple have to do to make it more ergonomic or less slippery?

Add some rubber grips to the side? This would add wearability that might be hard to replace down the road. It might be ugly as well… A case is a better solution for the user. Allowing expression and easy replaceability once worn. IOW, I’d rather have a case wear than the device wear.

I think knurling would be a better solution there, but that has its own set of trade offs.

Everything you add to a phone to make it more useful is likely something you wouldn’t want the phone to have by default. I wouldn’t want a pop socket by default, even though I may want to add one.

It’s complicated.
 

Bento.Box

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2022
224
121
The user ergonomic testing argument doesn’t really make sense. Usually if a product fails a test, then they redesign it until it passes, not go ahead and sell it and assume customers will buy something else to compensate for the failure. Because then what was the point of the test? It didn’t matter if it passed or failed if they sell it anyway.

Yes, I believe it makes sense. It is not intended to use these phones without a case. Nobody I know does that.
Apple can't and won't offer a wide range of cases, that's for other players in the market to do.

For example, Mercedes also doesn't make the tires for their cars. They're not intended to be driven without tires. They only put tires on so that it can be shipped to the customer. But often the customer has to buy other tires right away to drive it off from the dealer in a safe and legal way. Just like apple puts a cardbox box around their phones.

These unergonomic phones are being sold because the market overwhelmingly demands big non-one-handed phones made of smooth premium materials.

These are not premium materials. Aluminium is a soft, cheap metal. The glass for the front is also not scratch resitant, e.g. compared with the glass you find on a premium automatic watch.


When demand is this strong, and people are willing to pay these prices, companies will zip their mouths and sell it to them. Of course they know it’s not ergonomic and they know people are going to use cases. But acknowledgement is not the same as intention.

Currently we have a duopoly, that lacks a proper market. Smartphones lack innovation and the customers buy them not because they really want them, but because they fit at least some of their needs. It is up to the customer to fix the shortcomings of the manufacturer, often with the help of third parties. That ranges from cases to cloud storage solutions, as both icloud and gdrive have a plethora of bugs and are inferior to solutions like owncloud/nextcloud.

Compared to the purchasing power, smartphones are now cheaper than the PDA + internet phones from over 20 years ago.

In fact, they only stand to profit from repairs and sales of replacement phones. I’m imagining this from a company’s perspective.

But that adds to the TCO, hence people will buy cases or phones like the fairphone with are cheap and easy to fix.
If you're product is unneccessarily expensive because it tends to break under normal use, then people will go for the alternative.

Two, from a human perspective, most designers who are proud of their work don’t typically like to have their creations covered up by cheap plastic, so it doesn’t seem like something they would intend.

Smartphones nowadays all look the same. There is no design involved.
We are not in the 90ies, where you could distinguish a Siemens from a Nokia from a Bosch with a simple glance.

Wouldn’t less premium be more ideal then? Wouldn’t it be better to just have a phone made out of the same material as the case?

Ideally, it would be made out of rubber or a similar material with a protective screen over the screen. Just look at other premium handheld devices where money plays little role, often targeted at industrial users that use it the whole day, not consumers that let it sit around for most of the time.

However, the case gets replace more often than the phone. But if it's shipped firmly attached to the phone, it's harder to customize it for various use(r) cases. And when the case needs replacement, it wouldn't be as easy as just peeling it off and attaching the next one from Aliexpress. Well, perhaps for the fairphone, but probably not for the iphone.
 

nStyle

macrumors 65832
Dec 6, 2009
1,502
1,005
the mini is perfect in every way shut your fat mouth or Apple will never grace us with another
 
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