Tablets Windows 8 Tablet vs iPad

[spinedoc77]

Which is more restrictive is purely subjective.



Apple totally should have kept an iPod an iPod, not combined it with a web browser and an app platform.

I would argue that with Metro being a separate layer from the classic desktop this is what Msoft is doing. If all you want is a tablet, that's all you need interact with. You have to specifically enter desktop mode, it doesn't happen accidentally, and if you buy an ARM device you will never enter it. I think Msoft ius being smart, you can have just the tablet experience, something that is optimized for touch and works just fine on the same level that iOS does, but if you want your tablet and computer to be a single device you can have that as well.

Yep, that's what I think is Microsofts thinking. If you want the "simple" tablet experience similar to iOS you just stay in Metro mode. But you also have the option to have the full "windows" experience that 90%+ of the world uses.

What I think history will find as a mistake long term is concentrating on that "extra" device that the ipad is, it doesn't replace your computer for most users, it just becomes an extra device in which you accept the tradeoffs in power and usability in exchange for portability and battery life. The ipad was a necessary evil until the hardware caught up with the software.

 

[Beta Particle]

I would think that most on here are talking about WinPro, not WinRT. IMO WinRT is going to be an unmitigated disaster so I'm not even going to bother discussing it.

The ARM-based WinRT tablets are the ones designed to compete with the iPad though, the Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor, especially when the base model is twice the price of an iPad. It's priced to compete with Ultrabooks and the MacBook Air.

Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

As for WinPro running hot, loud, and have terrible battery life we won't know until it's actually released. It's interesting that you bring up a macbook air running on windows, my wife runs Win7 on her 11" macbook air, and I run Win7 on my 13" macbook air. They both run smooth as butter, the fan rarely goes on unless I'm doing something intensive like transferring a large file, my laptops don't run hot in the least, battery life is exactly the same as when I run OSx, etc etc.

Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

And it has been shown time and time again that Windows has worse battery life than OS X. Depending on the model and task being done, it can be as much as 20% less, so expect battery life around the same as the 11ʺ MacBook Air when running OS X. (which is pretty terrible in my opinion, especially when compared to an iPad that easily gets 8–12 hours when doing anything other than playing games)

What I think history will find as a mistake long term is concentrating on that "extra" device that the ipad is, it doesn't replace your computer for most users, it just becomes an extra device in which you accept the tradeoffs in power and usability in exchange for portability and battery life. The ipad was a necessary evil until the hardware caught up with the software.

I can't imagine the Surface Pro replacing many people's computers either. You will need to be at a desk to use "classic" Windows apps properly (keyboard & trackpad) unlike a laptop which you can use anywhere without it falling over.

There are some great ideas with Surface, but I just don't think Windows 8 provides a good user experience either as a Desktop OS or a Tablet OS.

 

[Rodster]

Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

That's strictly conjecture and FUD.

Microsoft has stated that the Surface will employ a unique cooling system which I linked in a previous post. The Surface can't get loud because from what i've read it doesn't use fans.

As far as battery life goes we'll see regarding the Surface as there are Android devices which compete battery wise with the iPad and Android has a tendency of chewing up battery time. I'm waiting for the final product to reserve judgement rather than generating FUD and past criticism of MS and Windows.

 

[Piggie]

Remember one very important thing.

Microsoft surface is equivalent in the learning process as iPad1

We are now at the 3rd model of the iPad (which really won't get sorted properly till iPad4 is out, when the power and memory will match the screen)

iPad4 will be the one where it all should come together very very well.

So let's see how the Surface looks by the time it gets to revision 4.

As everyone here must realise, It's only a matter of time (5 years?) Before low power chipsets will be up to running a full OS with ease.

Certainly, if we imagine 10 years from now, it's hard to imagine Apple's tablet only running an (in effect) mobile phone OS still, as the hardware will be so very much more powerful by then.

 

[Beta Particle]

That's strictly conjecture and FUD.

Microsoft has stated that the Surface will employ a unique cooling system which I linked in a previous post. The Surface can't get loud because from what i've read it doesn't use fans.

You must have missed my previous post on the matter. The perimeter venting simply means that hot air is expelled from the device on all four sides, so that there is no one vent that can be covered up when the user picks up the tablet. There is a fan, Intel chips require them.

Why else would they be talking about a venting system they have developed for the Intel-powered tablet, which does not exist on the ARM one? Unlike Intel's chips, ARM chips can be passively cooled, as you have in the iPad, iPhone, other tablets & phones...

As far as battery life goes we'll see regarding the Surface as there are Android devices which compete battery wise with the iPad and Android has a tendency of chewing up battery time. I'm waiting for the final product to reserve judgement rather than generating FUD and past criticism of MS and Windows.

Android devices are ARM tablets like the iPad, the x86 Surface Pro is using a Core i5 CPU from Intel—the same as an 11ʺ MacBook Air. It has a 42Wh battery compared to a 35Wh battery in the 11ʺ Air—20% higher capacity. In tests run on various websites such as Anandtech, Windows generally has 10–20% less efficient battery use compared to OS X when running on the same hardware, therefore battery life will be roughly on par with the 11ʺ Air or possibly somewhat improved. Heat & noise will likely be somewhat higher, because it's a much smaller, tighter packed enclosure.

These are not unknowns, or mysteries that will only be revealed when the tablet is on sale.

 

[Rodster]

No one has mentioned if the Surface uses a fan or even noise levels but rather MS has talked up active cooling. This is a pretty tight fitting design for a fan, we'll see but saying something is going to run loud and hot before the product is released is just FUD.

If it's true after it's released then I will accept that. It could sway my decision on buying one but we'll see.

http://www.newtabletsnews.com/new-tablets-surface-at-microsoft

 

[marty1990]

I haven't read through all of the topic, but since I bought my iPad, I've been looking into Microsoft Surface, especially the RT version as it's more comparable to the iPad with it having a mobile OS.

I might be completely wrong, but I get the impression that it could go down a similar route with what happened with Windows and Mac. Now, when I think Apple, I think design, as in graphic editing and creation, video editing, and music production. I think Windows and I think word processing, office work (excel, databases etc.), and gaming. I know that each OS can do all of the things mentioned, but Mac's have a history of being more geared for 'arty' stuff, whereas Windows appear to have a a history of being more geared towards the other stuff I mentioned. At least, this is my thinking. *shrug*

I feel that this stereotype could then happen with Microsoft Surface and the iPad, in that the iPad will be used more so by those who do a lot of design work, and Surface will be used by those who do lot of word processing and more office type work. For the users in between, I feel that they'd go for iPad, just because it's an Apple product. Or Android.

That's what I reckon, anyway. I quite like the look of Surface, specifically the RT version.

 

[ffmed124]

Well the first iPad IS practically a large iPhone. But I was saying personally since I have an iPhone. I really want to give the Windows Surface a try since it is more like a tablet and pc combination.. Since using the iPad I see myself using the MacBook less. But I'm excited to see Windows try at it. Never said it wasn't part of my life, and I know it wasn't meant to replace a pc but the windows tablet may do both

Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

I think that if you don't like an iPad and don't see a place for it in your life, that's great. You probably won't see a place for any other tablet in your life either, Windows 8 or whatever. Stick to notebooks for your computing needs. The iPad was never designed to replace a computer. It was designed to be an extension of a computer at best, and a media consumption device. Windows 8 tablets are being designed to replace computers, and so will probably not do as well as iPads, because they won't be able to do better than what they're trying to replace. People will prefer to use their existing notebooks because they work better, cost less and aren't that much less portable.

I agree with you, the iPad is just a big iPhone although I'm sure it has it's purpose in someone's life but I found it a waste of money, just my opinion.

 

[spinedoc77]

The ARM-based WinRT tablets are the ones designed to compete with the iPad though, the Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor, especially when the base model is twice the price of an iPad. It's priced to compete with Ultrabooks and the MacBook Air.

Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

If the discussion is ipad versus surface RT then I can't argue with you, but it's not because of functionality where Microsoft is winningo over plenty of critics with Metro. It's more because ipad has such an incredible headstart and such an integrated ecosystem. Still, IMO the Surface Pro will compete with the ipad indirectly, for those consumers who consider purchasing a laptop AND an ipad such as myself I would definitely get a surface Pro and save a ton of money. For me I look at getting a think laptop and an ipad at @ $2-3k versus just getting a Surface Pro which I'll assume will be $1k.

Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

I run photoshop on it daily and it still doesn't chug. I've even ran some games on it that surprised me how well they ran. I think anything more specialized than that like possibly engineering, CAD, high end graphics, etc are going to have a dedicated desktop or a much beefier laptop than the air.

And it has been shown time and time again that Windows has worse battery life than OS X. Depending on the model and task being done, it can be as much as 20% less, so expect battery life around the same as the 11ʺ MacBook Air when running OS X. (which is pretty terrible in my opinion, especially when compared to an iPad that easily gets 8–12 hours when doing anything other than playing games)

I'm not familiar with the studies you are citing (or aren't) but I've been using Windows on Apple's hardware for years and anecdotally I don't see a difference whatsoever. Windows7 is very smooth and efficient. Surface RT to the ipad should be very comparable in battery life, but I agree there will be some kind of trade off to run a full windows OS versus something like iOS, how much of a trade off we don't know yet unless we have a crystal ball hidden somewhere. For me I'd be willing to trade off battery life to be 5-6 hours on a WinPro tablet, which is about what the 11" macbook air gets anyhow. I have a feeling it will be more than that though, Microsoft seems to have come alive in a big way and they know if they drop the ball on battery life they will be sunk. I am also impressed by the perimeter venting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9bem6O9r4 But once again we are only guessing until we see it first hand.

I can't imagine the Surface Pro replacing many people's computers either. You will need to be at a desk to use "classic" Windows apps properly (keyboard & trackpad) unlike a laptop which you can use anywhere without it falling over.

Maybe, it's a good point although I would never use a laptop actually in my lap for any kind of serious work anyway. Seems kind of moot to me unless you are doing some CAD work on the subway.

There are some great ideas with Surface, but I just don't think Windows 8 provides a good user experience either as a Desktop OS or a Tablet OS.

Yeah I don't know where I stand on this yet either. I have Win8 installed on a spare laptop and I can't say I'm in love with it. It reminds me of the pocket PC days when they just left too much desktop windows in the OS, tiny little x's to close windows and other odd UI decisions. Although I haven't fiddled with it much on a touchscreen basis Metro really looks nice from a simple ipad like UI, and the beauty of it is how you can ignore desktop windows or flip over to it if you want. Certainly the software will be the make or break point.

 

[HolyGrail]

Which is more restrictive is purely subjective.



Apple totally should have kept an iPod an iPod, not combined it with a web browser and an app platform.

Metro is as innovative as iOS, and from a visual POV I think it is more so.

Apple has added many features to iOS that lets it replace the desktop, and for a lot of casual computer users, iPads have replaced their regular computers.

I would argue that with Metro being a separate layer from the classic desktop this is what Msoft is doing. If all you want is a tablet, that's all you need interact with. You have to specifically enter desktop mode, it doesn't happen accidentally, and if you buy an ARM device you will never enter it. I think Msoft ius being smart, you can have just the tablet experience, something that is optimized for touch and works just fine on the same level that iOS does, but if you want your tablet and computer to be a single device you can have that as well.

Will agree to disagree. You think Microsoft strategy is a good one....... I don't. We'll just revisit this thread in a few years, and see how their strategy turned out.

 

[HolyGrail]

Because the analogy was a wrong one.

You're nitpicking over something that was not meant to be taken literally......let it go......breath.

 

[Zmmyt]

I'm also very keen on seeing one in action. It looks promising.

I personally feel more comfortable with my Apple products. It's a bit like eating an expensive BigMac. Very familiar.

 

[VenusianSky]

When it comes to the tablet, I think Microsoft is more interested in the market that they already far dominate, which is the corporate market. Apple is really far off from fitting in the corporate environment. We've been working with Apple to try to get iPads in our environment and they just doesn't seem to have any interest in satisfying corporate needs (device security and management in particular). Problem is that employees want to use their iPads with work. The only viable solution is to use the Citrix iOS client to connect to a Windows desktop server.
Microsoft Windows (NT) has been tuned to the corporate environment for around 15 years now. Windows 8 is built on that same technology and it will now be available for mobile devices. I plan on getting a new Windows 8 laptop at work that has a touchscreen (preferably a removable display/tablet with Windows 8 built in) once they become available. I like my iPad and all, but it just doesn't have what it takes to fit in the corporate world. I would really like a work computer that can run my business tools, plus double up as a mobile device.

 

[960design]

We look forward to testing the new Windows tablets and the 7" iPads, if they move from rumorware to hardware.

We beta'd Win8 and hated it, put in tons of change requests, as did many others and to be honest it looks like microsoft listened for the most part.

The device hardware looks very impressive, we will just have to wait and see if the software is snappy enough to keep users happy.


Just me

PS We are a combo apple/microsoft shop ( i work on the apple side ).

 

[audix]

There is nothing Microsoft can do to fix Windows 8. Nothing. It's just- I mean look at Windows 7 and then look at Windows 8.. what IS that?!

Stop Microsoft. Just stop.

 

[Technarchy]

Stop Microsoft. Just stop.

Stop is right.

ARM based model and i5 based model makes no sense. Confused customers, and confused developers is all you'll get by doing this.

Keyboard execution is nothing short of horrendous. A laptop that doesn't work on your lap? What? A trackpad for a tablet? Huh?

Cost. Everyone can sense this thing will cost more than the iPad.

Two different operating systems that look the same on two very similar looking but different products.

Two different USB formats...

If just doesn't make sense to make two models, that are sort of the same, but each having massive compromises to what they should be.

I don't see a single reason why I should retire my iPad for a surface. I'd rather get a Macbook Air or keep my iPad.

 

[Renzatic]

ARM based model and i5 based model makes no sense. Confused customers, and confused developers is all you'll get by doing this.

Not really. You have to actively seek out a Pro model. They're only available in MS shops and through online orders. Only someone who knows about a Pro and wants one for themselves will go out of their way to find one.

The SurfaceRT is going to be sold in every Walmart, Target, and Best Buy in the country. It'll be the one your average customer will pick up.

Basically, you want a tablet like the iPad? Get the RT. You want a powerful tablet capable of running PS and Zbrush? The Pro is your answer.

Keyboard execution is nothing short of horrendous. A laptop that doesn't work on your lap? What? A trackpad for a tablet? Huh?

Who actually uses their laptop in their lap? 96.8745% of the time, you've got it on a desk or other flat surface.

You gotta understand what MS is doing with Windows 8. You don't have two environments that are forced together in an awkward mix. You have two environments you jump between depending on how you want to use your tablet.

If you want to fire up Office, pop the kickstand, roll out the keyboard, and use the trackpad. Want to do more Metro oriented stuff? Pick it up in your hand and poke at it like you would an iPad.

This is the nice thing about it. It can (potentially) do both well. It's like all those people who complain "Metro sucks on the desktop". Guess what? You don't have to use it. I use Windows 8 almost exactly like I used Windows 7. Other than a new Start menu that looks different but is functionally the same, there isn't any huge changes to the basic desktop experience. I just now have the option to use Metro tablet apps if I want to.

Does it work? Will people take to it? That remains to be seen, but I can see the advantages of it.

Cost. Everyone can sense this thing will cost more than the iPad.

No doubt. I'll be surprised if the Surface debuts at anything less than $1100. But considering it's a niche pro product...

I don't see a single reason why I should retire my iPad for a surface. I'd rather get a Macbook Air or keep my iPad.

That's the thing. The Surface has the potential to be both in the same device. An iPad that can do everything a MBA can do, and still be good as a tablet. Once again, I don't know if it'll work great, or if it'll be an uneasy marriage between the two, but there is quite a bit of potential there.

 

[Technarchy]

Who actually uses their laptop in their lap? 96.8745% of the time, you've got it on a desk or other flat surface.

If that's the rational being catered to, that alone is a big win for the iPad.

And my Logitech Ultrathin + iPad works well on my desk, on my lap, or on my bed equally well.

Also, I think Tim Cook was right when he said the following.

I love convergence, convergence is great, but products are about tradeoffs. You have to make tough decisions, you have to choose, and the more you look at a tablet as a PC, the more the baggage of the past affects the products.

I said a few months ago, this flippant thing, you could converge a toaster and a refrigerator. Sure, you could do that. But I just think you wind up not building the best product, in this particular case, when you converge those.

 

[iEvolution]

Also, I think Tim Cook was right when he said the following.

Rather interesting considering they are the ones that converged two products together and took off with it. The iPhone combined a phone and ipod into one device and it is Apple's prime profit now.

 

[audix]

I just don't think Windows 8 is something that people are going to roll the dice on. Why would I switch from Windows 7 to something that is the antithesis of what Windows should've been.

 

[Night Spring]

Rather interesting considering they are the ones that converged two products together and took off with it. The iPhone combined a phone and ipod into one device and it is Apple's prime profit now.

Tim Cook isn't against all convergence -- he did start by saying "I love convergence, convergence is great." But he's saying you can't just pick any two products and converge them, they have to make sense. Phone+iPod made sense. Tablet+PC -- Apple doesn't think so, Microsoft thinks it makes sense.

 

[Renzatic]

I just don't think Windows 8 is something that people are going to roll the dice on. Why would I switch from Windows 7 to something that is the antithesis of what Windows should've been.

What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

 

[revelated]

What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

Having used Windows 8 extensively, I can say that the Start Menu is just one of many questionable decisions. The whole experience is rife with questionable decisions. Just do some YouTube searches for people who can't figure out navigation in Windows 8. Hell, I'm Microsoft certified many times over and even I had trouble finding basic functionality. The POINT is to make things easier for the user, not complicate needlessly.

• Switching from Metro to Desktop using what was previously the Start menu is a piss poor decision, I'm sorry. A smarter decision would have been to have an exposed corner that you could swipe OR even a "window" in the middle of the desktop that would switch when clicked.
• They buried the "Shut Down" option so far down in menus that it's almost like they don't want you to shut your machine off. Why?
• Control Panel is an exercise in tedium. It takes 4x the clicks to get to just a list of your Control Panel options.
• It took earthly forever to figure out how to customize the Metro side and eventually I just dropped it. Some tiles are large, some are small, some have icons, some don't, etc. Way too fragmented and no clear way to change colors, structure, etc.
• Couldn't get my company's FirePass to execute even though it's just using basic plugins.
• The search bar in Windows 7 under the Start orb was the most functional it'd ever been. Removing/moving this was terrible, as I instruct basic users to use this to find their files rather than dealing with folders.
• If Windows crashes you lose touch functionality when attempting to go to Safe Mode or whatever else from the BIOS side. Maybe Surface has a workaround for this, but on other tablets it's an issue.

What Windows 8 did bring to the table is better touch driver support in general especially with Wacom digitizers. On the Eee Slate, the Wacom response is iffy and sometimes flakes out but it's smooth as butter in Windows 8, which surprised me.

 

[Night Spring]

What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

Well, when I tried the preview, I found it annoying to find myself being dumped into metro interface every so often. Like some system settings were only avaiable in metro, while others were in the traditional control panel. Yes it felt a bit more responsive than Win7, but not enough to make me want to go through the hassle of upgrading. If I was assured that I could totally turn off metro and never have to deal with it, then maybe. Otherwise, the constant UI switching is just too annoying.

 

[Vegastouch]

I'm also very keen on seeing one in action. It looks promising.

I personally feel more comfortable with my Apple products. It's a bit like eating an expensive BigMac. Very familiar.

Heres the closest we have. Scroll down a bit for the video. There is a 20 second ad before it starts. There is another video down further.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/windows-8-tablets-release-date-specs-and-prices-916134

Here is another short video but not as good

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx