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thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,186
3,346
Pennsylvania
Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

Pricing for the surface hasn't been released yet. The only official word is that it will be priced comparably to other products on the market.

You have no way to quite a $100 premium over the iPad, as no price has been announced.

Stop spreading rumors.


Also, they never said if it was being sold with the keyboard cover, or if the keyboard cover was extra.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Well, when I tried the preview, I found it annoying to find myself being dumped into metro interface every so often. Like some system settings were only avaiable in metro, while others were in the traditional control panel. Yes it felt a bit more responsive than Win7, but not enough to make me want to go through the hassle of upgrading. If I was assured that I could totally turn off metro and never have to deal with it, then maybe. Otherwise, the constant UI switching is just too annoying.

I didn't like Win8 at first, either. After a couple of hours, I was panning it left and right. I still gave it a couple of weeks though, just because I didn't feel like rolling back to Win7 right away. Once I started getting the feel for it, I began appreciating some of the new things, and actually grew to like it.

Like the start menu being relegated to a hot corner. It seems dumb at first. Why take away the start orb just to move it slightly left and down and make it invisible? First off, the far corner is basically an infinite space. You can hit it without even thinking about it. Just slam your cursor down there, hit the left mouse button, and there you are. Plus it means the desktop behaves the same way as the Metro apps. You don't get to the Start menu differently from the desktop than you do the twitter app. It's all done the same way.

The charms? Eh. They're alright. Once you get used to the gesture to bring them up, it's no big deal (though I hear they're still hard to hit on dual screen setups). They do offer some nice features that are just a swipe away, so I ended up kinda liking them.

Then there's the Start menu itself. I probably took to it a little easier than others because I barely used the old Start menu. It was there to shut down my computer, shortcuts to rarely used but still nice to have around programs, or do type to searches. The new menu does the exact same thing, only now I can fit tons more on the screen, and organize it better. Type to searches are better for the same reason, too. More on the screen, easier to look through (though I do wish they had an "all" default when searching, instead of taking you directly to apps first, then forcing you to click to look through settings and files). It's a "your mileage may vary" type situation, but I don't find it to be the complete ruination of everything that is Windows like the naysayers are claiming. It's different, sure. But I find it a little better overall.

Course not everything is perfect. There are some goofy, goofy, goofy ass decisions MS made as far as the UI is concerned. Like doing a big marquee select on the desktop, and finding yourself accidentally "grabbing" the desktop window. Or how the Windows key doesn't cycle between the start menu and the desktop, but rather the start menu and the last used app. Or, like I said above, the lack of an "all" dialog box when searching. Pretty dumb stuff.

But anyway, blah blah blah. Long story short, it's not half bad. It's faster, smoother, and sleeker (for the most part). I wouldn't say it's a huge improvement over 7, but for $40, it's worth the upgrade.
 

iEvolution

macrumors 65816
Jul 11, 2008
1,432
2
What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

The metro UI is good for tablets but there is no logical explanation as to why Microsoft would think this design would be good for a desktop/laptop environment. Nearly everything is complicated further for a desktop user under Windows 8.

I think there should have been two UI options put in, one that is similar to Windows 7 with all the performance yummies of 8. If not two separate interface functions for desktop users then two different versions.

The only thing that has been improved for desktop users is explorer as it now has the ribbon interface (I like to be able to tag frequently used functions) but even that would probably seem like a backwards step to some especially those who hated the ribbon interface in office.

There is more to Windows than performance improvements, I'd rather have a slight slowdown with better usability than a faster illogical windows 8.

I will probably get it just to learn it but for the avg joe, I cant see them loving it over Windows 7 considering the start menu has been the big go to menu for 17 years.
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,798
I didn't like Win8 at first, either. After a couple of hours, I was panning it left and right. I still gave it a couple of weeks though, just because I didn't feel like rolling back to Win7 right away. Once I started getting the feel for it, I began appreciating some of the new things, and actually grew to like it.

Like the start menu being relegated to a hot corner.

The start menu is the least of my concerns. Like you, I don't use it much anyway, and once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. My main problem is with the Metro interface, which I just don't like at all. I know it's getting praised a lot for being different, but I just personally don't like it. I don't think I'd take the trouble to downgrade to Win7 if I buy a new computer that came with Win8, but I won't bother upgrading an existing Win7 machine to Win8, even if Microsoft paid me $40.
 

Renzatic

Suspended

Read what I said above. The metro start menu works as the inbetween space for the desktop and tablet app interfaces, and kinda has a "best of both worlds" thing going on.

Really, I don't understand why some people think this is so horrible. I've got all my various apps and settings pinned in there, it's all organized pretty well, and I can launch a search just by typing. I've even got a few live tiles in there for interesting news.

Also that cookbook app showed me how to make some really tasty breadsticks and sauce.

Like I said before, there is some goofy stuff going on in Win8, but it's still not half bad. There's a lot to like once you get used to it.
 

audix

macrumors regular
Jul 27, 2012
149
0
For those who are worried about the long term effects Windows 8 may have on the industry...

Of course we can't use Windows 7 forever, but will Windows 7 become the next Windows XP? Not really.

Windows 8 is for that niche market, it's not for everybody, and with the gamble it is, I think there's still plenty of leg room before things go downhill. People will continue to release applications for Windows 7 and Windows 8.

You could stay on Windows 7 and just go straight to Windows 9. Windows 7 is not going anywhere.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
The start menu is the least of my concerns. Like you, I don't use it much anyway, and once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. My main problem is with the Metro interface, which I just don't like at all. I know it's getting praised a lot for being different, but I just personally don't like it. I don't think I'd take the trouble to downgrade to Win7 if I buy a new computer that came with Win8, but I won't bother upgrading an existing Win7 machine to Win8, even if Microsoft paid me $40.

It's all to taste, man. I think it's all pretty decent myself, but I can easily understand why some don't like it. Metro apps as they are in Windows 8 are a little too big and unwieldy for the desktop. That's not to say it's bad for the desktop in general. The old Zune media player was the best example MS had of a Metro UI built for large, mouse driven desktops (and it kinda pisses me off that they didn't use it for the Music Player in Win8). If a developer builds their apps to take advantage of desktops, it works out really well.

Only problem is, if you don't like it, or don't ever get used to it, you're gonna have to move to another OS eventually. From Win8 on, it's gonna be all Metro all the time.
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,798
Only problem is, if you don't like it, or don't ever get used to it, you're gonna have to move to another OS eventually. From Win8 on, it's gonna be all Metro all the time.

Well, either Microsoft will work out the kinks with Win9, or I'll move on to Mac OS. :D I'm already using all Apple hardware anyway, but I've been using bootcamp to run Win7 because I do like Win7. But I'm heavily invested in the iOS ecosystem, and the more Apple integrates iOS with OS X, the more attractive that gets.
 

Beta Particle

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2012
527
5
Pricing for the surface hasn't been released yet. The only official word is that it will be priced comparably to other products on the market.

You have no way to quite a $100 premium over the iPad, as no price has been announced.
Surface starts at 32GB, the "comparable" iPad is $600.

Microsoft do not have the production chain that Apple do, it will be a $600 device.

Also, they never said if it was being sold with the keyboard cover, or if the keyboard cover was extra.
They are accessories, that's why they are removable, available in different colors, and different configurations. They will not be supplied with the device.
 

Beta Particle

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2012
527
5
I can't quote where, but I do remember reading that it's a possibility that the Surface would ship with the non-clicky keyboard.
I can guarantee the base model will not ship with one. There may be bundles, and the Pro model might come with one, but the base model will not.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,186
3,346
Pennsylvania
I can guarantee the base model will not ship with one. There may be bundles, and the Pro model might come with one, but the base model will not.

Surface starts at 32GB, the "comparable" iPad is $600.

Microsoft do not have the production chain that Apple do, it will be a $600 device.

They are accessories, that's why they are removable, available in different colors, and different configurations. They will not be supplied with the device.

So you're talking out of your behind. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but simply that you have no proof to back up your facts.
 

Beta Particle

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2012
527
5
So you're talking out of your behind. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but simply that you have no proof to back up your facts.
You can keep hoping I'm wrong, but there is no way Microsoft has two different versions of a removable keyboard cover, in several different colors, and are going to be shipping it in the box with the device—at least not on the $600 base model. If you think that, you have no idea how retail works, or how companies like this design and price products.

Microsoft aren't like Google who forego margins on products to try and undercut Apple. They believe this is a true competitor to the iPad and are going to price it accordingly.

There's no way they will be selling their 32GB tablet at $500 when Apple, with the best supply chain in the world, are selling a 16GB iPad at that price.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,186
3,346
Pennsylvania
You can keep hoping I'm wrong, but there is no way Microsoft has two different versions of a removable keyboard cover, in several different colors, and are going to be shipping it in the box with the device—at least not on the $600 base model. If you think that, you have no idea how retail works, or how companies like this design and price products.

Microsoft aren't like Google who forego margins on products to try and undercut Apple. They believe this is a true competitor to the iPad and are going to price it accordingly.

There's no way they will be selling their 32GB tablet at $500 when Apple, with the best supply chain in the world, are selling a 16GB iPad at that price.

Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.
 

Technarchy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2012
6,753
4,927
Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.

Keep in mind that the video game console business uses a Razor/Razor blade sales model, where the console is sold at a loss, but the markup on software is higher to offset the loss and make a profit.

Also, all games sold, irrespective of maker, pay a licensing fee to the hardware maker.
 

Beta Particle

macrumors 6502a
Jun 25, 2012
527
5
Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.
As Technarchy says, the console business is a completely different market, where the primary revenue streams come from licensing fees and software sales, not hardware sales. Microsoft is a relative newcomer to the market (the Xbox 360 was only their second console) and had to do this in order to be successful, as their entertainment division was hemorrhaging cash after the failure of the original Xbox and the Zune.

Nintendo are the only company that makes a profit selling hardware (at least not until years down the line with cheaper hardware revisions) and even they had to abandon this model and cut the price of the 3DS below its manufacturing costs to gain enough marketshare.


The Windows tablet market on the other hand is not something where Microsoft has to dominate on the hardware side. They sell the operating system at a cost of $85 to OEMs making their own hardware, and profit off that. It is not in their interests to sell hardware at a loss to drive partners' products off the market.

What having their own hardware should hopefully do though, is create a standard by which all other Windows tablets should be judged, and force other manufacturers to design top quality hardware in order to compete, unlike a lot of the crap Android tablets out there on the market where it's simply a race to the bottom.
 
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