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Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
896
337
Well, @Huntn, the august denizens of the coffee thread used to advise (most earnestly) that the price paid for the grinder should (at the very least) equal that of the coffee machine.....

Most certainly. The espresso machine is just a fancy water pump. Once you control for the other variable (water quality, freshness, the roast, etc.), the grinder is -- by far -- the most important step in making any sort of coffee. In fact, the only way to make a god shot, I believe, is to dial in every other component then change only the grinder....based on coffee freshness, the humidity level, etc.

Just my $.02.
[doublepost=1514581524][/doublepost]
I always assume that for a drip coffee maker to work, that the water had to reach a boiling point for the action of the water to be driven from the water basin up to the drip dispenser. I believe my current coffee maker Cuisenart brand is a quality one, but at the local Target I see the $30 Mr Coffee drip units and wonder does it make any difference? Something tells me it does. :p

With great respect......no. Boiling water cooks coffee, it does not brew it. You want to use water from 195 to 205, and where you fall within that range depends on a variety of factors, especially the source of the coffee and the grind size.

I would not assume either of two things: (a) your Cuisinart is getting the water anywhere near hot enough; and (b) the temperature drop from the heating element to the coffee itself is small.

Get a thermocouple and measure the water temp coming out of the nozzle or whatever the Cuisinart uses. Most non-specialist machines struggle to hit 160, and by the time the water hits the coffee, it could be as low as 140. That is not hot enough to cause the chemical reactions that brew coffee.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,589
26,706
The Misty Mountains
Most certainly. The espresso machine is just a fancy water pump. Once you control for the other variable (water quality, freshness, the roast, etc.), the grinder is -- by far -- the most important step in making any sort of coffee. In fact, the only way to make a god shot, I believe, is to dial in every other component then change only the grinder....based on coffee freshness, the humidity level, etc.

Just my $.02.
[doublepost=1514581524][/doublepost]

With great respect......no. Boiling water cooks coffee, it does not brew it. You want to use water from 195 to 205, and where you fall within that range depends on a variety of factors, especially the source of the coffee and the grind size.

I would not assume either of two things: (a) your Cuisinart is getting the water anywhere near hot enough; and (b) the temperature drop from the heating element to the coffee itself is small.

Get a thermocouple and measure the water temp coming out of the nozzle or whatever the Cuisinart uses. Most non-specialist machines struggle to hit 160, and by the time the water hits the coffee, it could be as low as 140. That is not hot enough to cause the chemical reactions that brew coffee.
But is it boiling at some point as to push the water up? Obviously I need to research this. :)
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,228
46,661
In a coffee shop.
Hiya SS. Getting excited for a little waltz on New Years Day? :)

Well, my memory is notoriously unreliable, but I seem to recall that you had a Lido 2? Are you looking for something, uh, a bit more electric? Drip or Espresso? Spend all your retirement or best bang for the buck?

Hey, great to see you, hear from you, and chat with you. How are you? Still enjoying opera - and coffee - among life's many civilised offerings?

I'm abroad - in yet more 'interesting' places and spaces and times, but with the sort of silly salary that allows for the purchase of toys, such as - um - proper burr grinders.

Advice welcome. On possible purchases.

Now, I do like the OE Lido, but am finding that I no much longer enjoy the sheer brute force required to actually grind the beans. (I did - a bit, but not too much - when I first bought it, but that was a few years ago).

Now, I find that I use it only on Sundays, when I have the time to set it up, and take increasingly deep breaths - and breaks - between grinding bursts; and that is with curses and aching shoulders - sorry - I'm not into masochism; a bit of effort is one thing - something that requires real energy, I'll leave to the gym bunnies. Basically, grinding my own beans - physically - is no longer fun.

So, electricity for the future: Or else, I'll suffer eternal perdition and revert to having my coffee ground by the small roasters I frequent (and sod perfection).

No: Neither retirement blown nor 'best bang for buck' - I'm a socialist snob, remember? Something good, solid, well made, reliable (reliable matters), idiot proof, something that I can handle when my mind off busily trying to save the world......

I'll PM (DM?) you.
 

NoBoMac

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Jul 1, 2014
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,589
26,706
The Misty Mountains
Found this list of best drip coffee makers 2017 and the prices range from $200-$35. This makes me somewhat suspect if a $35 coffeemaker can compete with $200 model, who is not telling the truth? (Not a reference to anyone in the thread.)

https://coffeemakerpicks.com/best-drip-coffee-makers/
[doublepost=1514584681][/doublepost]
Have always had glass. Not a fan of stainless.

This is more toward travel mugs, and might be psychosomatic, but to me, coffee does taste different when in stainless. And hence, I have a ceramic lined travel mug, and has worked well keeping coffee hot.

https://www.amazon.com/Bubba-Vacuum...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0186EP0JW
I too lean towards glass.
 

Ulenspiegel

macrumors 68040
Nov 8, 2014
3,212
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Land of Flanders and Elsewhere
Lately I prefer:

ShotType1_328x328.jpg
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,228
46,661
In a coffee shop.
Found this list of best drip coffee makers 2017 and the prices range from $200-$35. This makes me somewhat suspect if a $35 coffeemaker can compete with $200 model, who is not telling the truth? (Not a reference to anyone in the thread.)

https://coffeemakerpicks.com/best-drip-coffee-makers/
[doublepost=1514584681][/doublepost]
I too lean towards glass.

Not as much a fan of glass as some others: My nicest - and best - French Press is a stoneware one, by Le Creuset. Raspberry coloured, rather than the volcanic orange. (They didn't have the volcanic orange in stock the day I was shopping, but I am more than perfectly happy with my cerise/raspberry coloured French Press).
 
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Cave Man

macrumors 604
I just want to be clear of what the goal of the better grinder is? If it’s not a better taste, or if it is so subtle I would not notice, I don’t mind my grind being irregular. :D

The problem with blade grinders is they shear the beans and in doing so generate heat that compromises the coffee's flavor. Burr grinders (mill) are much better. But you may or may not notice a difference. I also weigh my beans - 32 grams for 800 ml of water.
[doublepost=1514597973][/doublepost]
As some of you have mentioned grinders - (good quality burr grinders) are there any in particular that you would recommend?
I have a Bellemain.

Perhaps more important is to get a coffee maker that has stable temperature (copper heating element) and an insulated carafe without applying heat to the pot. Mine is a now discontinued Bonavita. Makers that apply heat to the pot immediately start deteriorating the flavor.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,589
26,706
The Misty Mountains
I did not attend SU, however my father earned an EdD in Special Education from SU. He always had positive memories to share, and was an active Alum right up to the end.
He was in the Class of 1975. :apple:
Me too (class of 75)! :D I loved upstate NY. If I read that right sorry for your loss.
 

Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
896
337
But is it boiling at some point as to push the water up? Obviously I need to research this. :)

I am not familiar with your machine, but it sounds like you are describing something like a Technivorm. The Technivorm does indeed boil the water and then use the expansion of the water as a well, natural pump, if you will. But the product is carefully engineered so that the water drops in temp enough as it travels ("up" from the boiler and then "over" to the arm and then "down" through the shower) so that it hits the coffee at the right temperature. I have tested three Technivorms over the years, and all three produced nearly perfect water at right about 202-203 degrees (measured with a thermocouple used on the drops just before hitting the coffee).

Your machine may be engineered to these standards, but unless it costs at least $300-ish I would be surprised. But, no need to guess. Thermometers are cheap and good enough......and you will find that coffee made at 200 degrees tastes very different from coffee made at 205 degrees.

One other comment. You often see instructions to make coffee with water that is "just off the boil." Depending on the vessel, "just off" is something you need to measure.....you can lose 10 degrees just in the pour. You want the slurry (for most drip) at least 200 degrees, 205 for French Press.

At altitude, obviously all of this changes.
[doublepost=1514779499][/doublepost]
Hey, great to see you, hear from you, and chat with you. How are you? Still enjoying opera - and coffee - among life's many civilised offerings?

I'm abroad - in yet more 'interesting' places and spaces and times, but with the sort of silly salary that allows for the purchase of toys, such as - um - proper burr grinders.

Advice welcome. On possible purchases.

Now, I do like the OE Lido, but am finding that I no much longer enjoy the sheer brute force required to actually grind the beans. (I did - a bit, but not too much - when I first bought it, but that was a few years ago).

Now, I find that I use it only on Sundays, when I have the time to set it up, and take increasingly deep breaths - and breaks - between grinding bursts; and that is with curses and aching shoulders - sorry - I'm not into masochism; a bit of effort is one thing - something that requires real energy, I'll leave to the gym bunnies. Basically, grinding my own beans - physically - is no longer fun.

So, electricity for the future: Or else, I'll suffer eternal perdition and revert to having my coffee ground by the small roasters I frequent (and sod perfection).

No: Neither retirement blown nor 'best bang for buck' - I'm a socialist snob, remember? Something good, solid, well made, reliable (reliable matters), idiot proof, something that I can handle when my mind off busily trying to save the world......

I'll PM (DM?) you.

Ah, most excellent.

Yes, still opera, but in 2017 I have become consumed with Mahler. I don't know why. I have always liked Mahler, but never loved Mahler. Mrs. Kurwenal and I spent the summer in the Grand Tetons and the place we stayed happened to have a complete set of Bernstein's Mahler concerts (in LP format!). I have become absolutely consumed with understanding the 9 (well, actually 10....or actually 10 and a half) symphonies. It takes real effort for me to concentrate enough to listen....I can do it for only 1-2 hours a day. Oh, but what joy those two hours! I have set the goal to see Mahler live 5 times in 2018, and intend to try to do 5 and 9 in all 5. We'll see. We may do the Proms, if you happen to be anywhere near Royal Albert Hall summer-ish......

Really looking forward to the concert tomorrow, although when I first saw the program I thought "meh." But the Czibulka will be interesting.

OK, grinders!

Let's assume you will not be making Turkish or ristrettos.....that makes it all much easier.

As you may recall, El Shrinko and I had a long-running friendly debate about grinders, but honestly unless every other variable is controlled, getting the perfectly consistent grind with a $5K grinder is a waste of time. He and I agreed that the best "entry level" grinder for espresso is the Rancilio Rocky, which typically goes for about $500. If you plan to make only white coffees, then you can go even less expensive, down to some of the Baratza grinders. But, I know you love your doppio, so I would start with the Rocky as the baseline choice and then research both up and down from there.

For what it's worth, I have recommended the Rocky over the years to probably 50 friends and no one has ever complained....except when they move "up" that stack a few years later.

A few other thoughts.

Steel vs. Ceramic. This is debated endlessly but I would not get hung up over it. Steel = cheaper but good. Ceramic = more expensive but also more consistent, but unless all other variables have been controlled (and done so on the high side), it doesn't matter. Ceramic will last longer, but burrs are not hard to change out.

Flat vs. conical. This is a fairly big deal. Conical burrs have more surface area, so they dissipate heat faster = they transfer less heat to the coffee, which is a big deal.

Doser vs. doserless. Definitely doserless, otherwise at a low volume production line you end up using stale coffee. Shrink and I both are fastidious about cleaning the grinder after every use....there's a lesson there.

Step vs. stepless. I would not get hung up over this....the Rocky is stepped, something like 50 steps I think (if memory serves), but that's plenty. For a high end grinder, though, absolutely go stepless.

The other thing about grinders.....they have personalities. Even the same model and manufacturer.....you have to get to know your grinder. Take it to bed for about 3-4 years before you really get to know it. You may recall that I use Mazzers in my coffee lab, mostly, because I have been using Mazzers for so long that I know them....I get them. When they are having a bad day, I can tell. More recently, I have been trying to learn to use the Ceado that Mrs. Kurwenal gave me, what, a year ago? On paper it is a *much* better grinder than the Mazzers, but I can make a *much* better ristretto with the Mazzers than the Ceado.

So, what's my point? Narrow your choice down to 2 or 3, and then go to a store and pick them up, caress them, talk to them. See which one answers you. It's sort of like picking out a dog at the rescuse shelter.....

Well, that's a mouthful. Sorry.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,228
46,661
In a coffee shop.
I am not familiar with your machine, but it sounds like you are describing something like a Technivorm. The Technivorm does indeed boil the water and then use the expansion of the water as a well, natural pump, if you will. But the product is carefully engineered so that the water drops in temp enough as it travels ("up" from the boiler and then "over" to the arm and then "down" through the shower) so that it hits the coffee at the right temperature. I have tested three Technivorms over the years, and all three produced nearly perfect water at right about 202-203 degrees (measured with a thermocouple used on the drops just before hitting the coffee).

Your machine may be engineered to these standards, but unless it costs at least $300-ish I would be surprised. But, no need to guess. Thermometers are cheap and good enough......and you will find that coffee made at 200 degrees tastes very different from coffee made at 205 degrees.

One other comment. You often see instructions to make coffee with water that is "just off the boil." Depending on the vessel, "just off" is something you need to measure.....you can lose 10 degrees just in the pour. You want the slurry (for most drip) at least 200 degrees, 205 for French Press.

At altitude, obviously all of this changes.
[doublepost=1514779499][/doublepost]

Ah, most excellent.

Yes, still opera, but in 2017 I have become consumed with Mahler. I don't know why. I have always liked Mahler, but never loved Mahler. Mrs. Kurwenal and I spent the summer in the Grand Tetons and the place we stayed happened to have a complete set of Bernstein's Mahler concerts (in LP format!). I have become absolutely consumed with understanding the 9 (well, actually 10....or actually 10 and a half) symphonies. It takes real effort for me to concentrate enough to listen....I can do it for only 1-2 hours a day. Oh, but what joy those two hours! I have set the goal to see Mahler live 5 times in 2018, and intend to try to do 5 and 9 in all 5. We'll see. We may do the Proms, if you happen to be anywhere near Royal Albert Hall summer-ish......

Really looking forward to the concert tomorrow, although when I first saw the program I thought "meh." But the Czibulka will be interesting.

OK, grinders!

Let's assume you will not be making Turkish or ristrettos.....that makes it all much easier.

As you may recall, El Shrinko and I had a long-running friendly debate about grinders, but honestly unless every other variable is controlled, getting the perfectly consistent grind with a $5K grinder is a waste of time. He and I agreed that the best "entry level" grinder for espresso is the Rancilio Rocky, which typically goes for about $500. If you plan to make only white coffees, then you can go even less expensive, down to some of the Baratza grinders. But, I know you love your doppio, so I would start with the Rocky as the baseline choice and then research both up and down from there.

For what it's worth, I have recommended the Rocky over the years to probably 50 friends and no one has ever complained....except when they move "up" that stack a few years later.

A few other thoughts.

Steel vs. Ceramic. This is debated endlessly but I would not get hung up over it. Steel = cheaper but good. Ceramic = more expensive but also more consistent, but unless all other variables have been controlled (and done so on the high side), it doesn't matter. Ceramic will last longer, but burrs are not hard to change out.

Flat vs. conical. This is a fairly big deal. Conical burrs have more surface area, so they dissipate heat faster = they transfer less heat to the coffee, which is a big deal.

Doser vs. doserless. Definitely doserless, otherwise at a low volume production line you end up using stale coffee. Shrink and I both are fastidious about cleaning the grinder after every use....there's a lesson there.

Step vs. stepless. I would not get hung up over this....the Rocky is stepped, something like 50 steps I think (if memory serves), but that's plenty. For a high end grinder, though, absolutely go stepless.

The other thing about grinders.....they have personalities. Even the same model and manufacturer.....you have to get to know your grinder. Take it to bed for about 3-4 years before you really get to know it. You may recall that I use Mazzers in my coffee lab, mostly, because I have been using Mazzers for so long that I know them....I get them. When they are having a bad day, I can tell. More recently, I have been trying to learn to use the Ceado that Mrs. Kurwenal gave me, what, a year ago? On paper it is a *much* better grinder than the Mazzers, but I can make a *much* better ristretto with the Mazzers than the Ceado.

So, what's my point? Narrow your choice down to 2 or 3, and then go to a store and pick them up, caress them, talk to them. See which one answers you. It's sort of like picking out a dog at the rescuse shelter.....

Well, that's a mouthful. Sorry.

What a wonderful post to read in the morning of January 1. What an absolute pleasure to read.
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,589
26,706
The Misty Mountains
Do you know how many coffee threads are in this forum? Bunches! So I picked one. 🤔

I recently got a new coffee brewer, a Mr Coffee, which does a fine job of brewing coffee at an economical price and made a discovery. If I use a metal mesh basket to hold the grounds instead of a paper filter, it improves the flavor tremendously. How many knew about this, but kept it to yourselves? ;) I read that the mesh basket allows the coffee bean oils to come though.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
28,853
26,982
Do you know how many coffee threads are in this forum? Bunches! So I picked one. 🤔

I recently got a new coffee brewer, a Mr Coffee, which does a fine job of brewing coffee at an economical price and made a discovery. If I use a metal mesh basket to hold the grounds instead of a paper filter, it improves the flavor tremendously. How many knew about this, but kept it to yourselves? ;) I read that the mesh basket allows the coffee bean oils to come though.
That's the permanent filter. I would hesitate to say it's the filter though, unless you've done some testing with your new coffeemaker?

Yes, permanent filters do a fine job. They make cleaning up easy, but they will stain over time. And…most coffee experts believe the opposite of your revelation. :D
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,589
26,706
The Misty Mountains
That's the permanent filter. I would hesitate to say it's the filter though, unless you've done some testing with your new coffeemaker?

Yes, permanent filters do a fine job. They make cleaning up easy, but they will stain over time. And…most coffee experts believe the opposite of your revelation. :D
Yes, permanent filter made of a fine wire mesh an a solid plastic bottom. I appreciate the input. I'm just going on what my taste buds are telling me...
 
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