4k TVs are so advanced, whats the point of Apple TV 4k?

[cynics]

Some of these things may or may not apply to you but keep in mind they are features many users want/need.

1. App store - for more than just streaming services like games, shopping apps, security cameras, etc etc....

2. HomeKit Hub

3. AirPlay

4. Preferred UI

5. Use on TV's that have less desirable smart features

6. iTunes home sharing

7. Easy integration into other Apple services like Apple Music

8. iCloud app syncing (downloading an app your an iOS devices automatically downloads onto the AppleTV).

etc.

Again keep in mind some/all of those may not be features you want or need however they are features/function available with an AppleTV that a SmartTV may not provide.

 

[guptasa1]

Actually, I need to amend my previous post a bit. Seems like the built-in apps have come a long way since the last time I tried them. I don't recall Dolby Vision working for Netflix before and remember audio sync issues, and I recall having problems with VUDU's HDR (which now also supports Dolby Vision) at the time...and both worked PERFECTLY for me last night. No audio sync problems.

For fun, I decided to compare the VUDU version through the TV with the AppleTV...and long story short, I ended up watching it through VUDU.

Right now AppleTV only supports Dolby Vision at 30Hz and 24Hz. I can confirm 4K Dolby Vision at 30 Hz IS pretty jerky/juddery, especially with fast and/or action scenes. I think it is just fine at 24Hz, BUT, that introduces some as yet unexplained audio delay I can't get sorted through my receiver. (Every other mode seems to avoid this - as far as I can tell, it's just Dolby Vision at 24 Hz.) So that might get sorted eventually, but as it stands, watching directly through the LG app on my 2016 TV is MUCH smoother and eliminates any sound issues. The same is true of Netflix, and I don't see any problems with those apps at this point.

I will say the one app I do still have issues with on the TV is YouTube. Audio has always been out of sync with that one, and I don't know why. I don't have this issue with YouTube on Roku or AppleTV (60Hz SDR).

But overall, yes, glad I tried these apps again. Definitely gonna check out Movies Anywhere too.

 

[cynics]

Actually, I need to amend my previous post a bit. Seems like the built-in apps have come a long way since the last time I tried them. I don't recall Dolby Vision working for Netflix before and remember audio sync issues, and I recall having problems with VUDU's HDR (which now also supports Dolby Vision) at the time...and both worked PERFECTLY for me last night. No audio sync problems.

For fun, I decided to compare the VUDU version through the TV with the AppleTV...and long story short, I ended up watching it through VUDU.

Right now AppleTV only supports Dolby Vision at 30Hz and 24Hz. I can confirm 4K Dolby Vision at 30 Hz IS pretty jerky/juddery, especially with fast and/or action scenes. I think it is just fine at 24Hz, BUT, that introduces some as yet unexplained audio delay I can't get sorted through my receiver. (Every other mode seems to avoid this - as far as I can tell, it's just Dolby Vision at 24 Hz.) So that might get sorted eventually, but as it stands, watching directly through the LG app on my 2016 TV is MUCH smoother and eliminates any sound issues. The same is true of Netflix, and I don't see any problems with those apps at this point.

I will say the one app I do still have issues with on the TV is YouTube. Audio has always been out of sync with that one, and I don't know why. I don't have this issue with YouTube on Roku or AppleTV (60Hz SDR).

But overall, yes, glad I tried these apps again. Definitely gonna check out Movies Anywhere too.

Your TV in particular (LG 65E6P) while an incredibly good set its not good at 24p over a 60p source (i.e streaming boxes that are similar to the ATV). You can play with the settings "Real Cinema" in the picture options however that will mostly help with 24p via 60i sources (cable boxes), which is something your TV is good at.

The TV itself maybe the source of your audio sync issues as well. That model has a fairly high input lag when dealing with a 4k 60p source. There is/was even a petition for HDR game mode input lag issues found here. While most noticeable in gaming if you are decoding the audio prior to the TV a lag between the two can also become apparent.

Things I would try with your TV to prevent from having to switch settings based on content.

1. Connect the ATV directly to the TV and use HDMI 2 for ARC back to the receiver.

2. Set the ATV to 4k HDR 60hz.

3. Play with video interpolation settings (Tru-Motion) to see if you can smooth out 24p judder some.

The reason I suggest testing out the above settings and configurations is because...

1. Video interpolation (LG calls it Tru-Motion) adds a lot of input lag. If you are decoding the audio prior to the video there can be audio sync issues. Since you have judder issues we want to play around with video interpolation so setting it to off could cure one problem and exasperate another. With the ATV connected to the TV you wont lose much (anything) in audio however the TV will account for its video interpolation post processing.

2. Not only will you be able to watching 60hz content and have smoother menus/games/etc but you'll get more wiggle room with increasing video interpolation to reduce judder without as much SOE. The trade off of DV for HDR10 might not be as bad as 60hz for 30hz.

3. I would think (guess) judder would be less noticeable at a higher FPS. While twice as present its happening for half as long. At 60p you'll also be able to increase video interpolation (to force a reverse 3:2 pulldown) and minimize SOE although it will still be present.

I notice a lot of people here confusing stutter with 24p judder though. For example in a panning scene you can sometimes see stutter, this is the low 24 fps and it will look very consistent. Its especially noticeable in panning landscape scenes because you can compare the foreground to distant objects in the background. Judder on the other hand is always present and appears to be very inconsistent.

 

[2010mini]

Number 1 point of ATV over any TV:
User security.

 

[guptasa1]

Your TV in particular (LG 65E6P) while an incredibly good set its not good at 24p over a 60p source (i.e streaming boxes that are similar to the ATV). You can play with the settings "Real Cinema" in the picture options however that will mostly help with 24p via 60i sources (cable boxes), which is something your TV is good at.

The TV itself maybe the source of your audio sync issues as well. That model has a fairly high input lag when dealing with a 4k 60p source. There is/was even a petition for HDR game mode input lag issues found here. While most noticeable in gaming if you are decoding the audio prior to the TV a lag between the two can also become apparent.

Things I would try with your TV to prevent from having to switch settings based on content.

1. Connect the ATV directly to the TV and use HDMI 2 for ARC back to the receiver.

2. Set the ATV to 4k HDR 60hz.

3. Play with video interpolation settings (Tru-Motion) to see if you can smooth out 24p judder some.

The reason I suggest testing out the above settings and configurations is because...

1. Video interpolation (LG calls it Tru-Motion) adds a lot of input lag. If you are decoding the audio prior to the video there can be audio sync issues. Since you have judder issues we want to play around with video interpolation so setting it to off could cure one problem and exasperate another. With the ATV connected to the TV you wont lose much (anything) in audio however the TV will account for its video interpolation post processing.

2. Not only will you be able to watching 60hz content and have smoother menus/games/etc but you'll get more wiggle room with increasing video interpolation to reduce judder without as much SOE. The trade off of DV for HDR10 might not be as bad as 60hz for 30hz.

3. I would think (guess) judder would be less noticeable at a higher FPS. While twice as present its happening for half as long. At 60p you'll also be able to increase video interpolation (to force a reverse 3:2 pulldown) and minimize SOE although it will still be present.

I notice a lot of people here confusing stutter with 24p judder though. For example in a panning scene you can sometimes see stutter, this is the low 24 fps and it will look very consistent. Its especially noticeable in panning landscape scenes because you can compare the foreground to distant objects in the background. Judder on the other hand is always present and appears to be very inconsistent.

Thanks for the post/tips! Helpful information.

You're correct that the TV is part of the issue with the audio sync, but it's not the whole story. 4K 60P (for both SDR and HDR) is working well through the Marantz receiver and the lip sync feature of the receiver appears to work correctly. Similarly, 30Hz works fine audio wise, but it's the judder that makes it less than ideal. It's just the 24Hz in Dolby Vision that's an issue with audio, and I've found some reports that other people are having this issue at 24Hz with other receivers, so I'm hoping it's an issue that eventually gets ironed out. It's almost like DV at that resolution isn't reporting the right correction amount for receiver lip sync to work.

Per your suggestions:

1.) Connecting the ATV directly to the TV DOES solve the 24Hz sound issue, leading me to think it is something in the receiver processing. Unfortunately, it introduces other issues that are even more prevalent. Most apparently, all sources seem just a tiny bit off audio sync wise, and unfortunately it's a situation where the video is a few frames before the audio, not the other way around, so setting a delay in the Marantz is useless. I played with the LG AV Sync setting (which appears to have negative values so really should work), but it didn't seem to resolve it either. On the whole, since it's for EVERYTHING, I find that worse than the 24Hz issue, so I'm back through the receiver again.

2.) SDR and HDR at 60Hz don't appear to have the motion issues that DV does at 30Hz, you're correct, so this is valid. Though, of course, I'd prefer DV where possible, as it really does make a difference for some titles. On a bright note, I can use the built-in TV apps for Netflix and VUDU and see quite a bit of content in DV without these issues, so there is a workaround as long as the content I want to watch is in one of those two places. For the HDR content, ATV should work fine.

3.) I have TrueMotion Off always, and this did help a lot with some initial issues I had with audio sync. I did play around with it briefly to see if different settings could help my other issues, but it didn't appear to, so it's back off again.

Finally, the 30Hz on ATV issue is definitely judder. This same thing can't be see at either 24Hz or 60Hz (SDR or HDR). It also doesn't occur using the built in LG apps (which I'm wondering if play at 24Hz, but I don't think there's a way to tell). The 4K DV movie I watched last night with the television's VUDU app was smooth as butter, and it was a pretty huge contrast compared to 30Hz on the AppleTV. I know what you mean about the 24 frames showing a consistent stutter - that's expected and doesn't bother me; this is definitely something else. I was hoping since 30Hz goes evenly into 60 the same magic could happen as what happens at 60, but sadly that doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[Tech198]

I've been using an apple tv for the last few years very happily with my (now) dinosaur-ed old TV. Having bought a lovely new LG 2017 4k tv, the OS on it seems pretty damned good: Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, NAS streaming with Plex, BBC iplayer, etc all in fabulous resolution and the TV seamlessly picks the correct resolution without me having to guess or change settings.

So I'm just wondering since everyone talking on here about the Apple TV 4k must equally have a new TV with an equally good inbuilt OS, what are you all doing by adding an extra box? What is the value that you see, other than adding itunes as a subscription source which is no big deal given all the others out there, and adding some games which equally seems no big deal if you have a proper gaming machine under the telly.

Am I missing something?.

That's just the point through, the OS in the TV isn't just as good.... If we thought that, apart from the in-bult apps that may not be available as the reason to buy from Apple, we'd be all using smart TV's built-in instead.

 

[brentsg]

I've been using an apple tv for the last few years very happily with my (now) dinosaur-ed old TV. Having bought a lovely new LG 2017 4k tv, the OS on it seems pretty damned good: Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, NAS streaming with Plex, BBC iplayer, etc all in fabulous resolution and the TV seamlessly picks the correct resolution without me having to guess or change settings.

So I'm just wondering since everyone talking on here about the Apple TV 4k must equally have a new TV with an equally good inbuilt OS, what are you all doing by adding an extra box? What is the value that you see, other than adding itunes as a subscription source which is no big deal given all the others out there, and adding some games which equally seems no big deal if you have a proper gaming machine under the telly.

Am I missing something? Genuinely, I expected to hop out and buy a new apple 4k box to fit underneath the new tv and am struggling to see a reason why. Plus I see all these complaints about it not really handling the resolution or the colour stream or the sound particularly well...

The TV doesn't play my iTunes content. It's pretty simple. The TV also doesn't have a Playstation VUE client, a DirecTV Now client, a CBS All Access client, etc. the TV can't do AirPlay either.

 

[Smeaton1724]

The Apple TV isn't particularly 'needed' but if your in the Apple ecosystem and can afford 4K and OLED TV's then why not.

Reasons for the Apple TV:
- Airplay of Sport to my 4K TV from iPad and iPhone
- Apple TV apps get updated more frequently than built in TV apps
- Wider range of app selection
- Siri
- Games
- Access to my music from iTunes on my Mac
- Upscaling of my Plex library to 4K HDR (For good and bad with Apple's upscaling filter/tech)

 

[Juicy Box]

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but the last time I was shopping around for a TV, many TVs had a non-smart version of the same model. Basically the same TV, but with slightly different SN and model numbers. The Smart version was a few hundred dollars more.

Assuming that this is still the case, and knowing the issues with built-in TV operating Systems, many were mentioned in this thread, what would be the point of getting a Smart TV, when you can get a dedicated TV box like the ATV?

This is what I did 5 years ago, but like I said, I haven't shopped around for TVs lately, I don't even know if you can still buy a non-smart TV.

 

[err404]

Same here (Samsung 4k), no longer using my AppleTV (missing it's interface though).

My Samsung 4k wants to display ads on the home menu. I don’t allow it online anymore.

 

[jetjaguar]

My Samsung 4k wants to display ads on the home menu. I don’t allow it online anymore.

same I dont like using smart tv features .. much rather use my shield and apple tv

 

[SYCAMOREGRAD]

I've been using an apple tv for the last few years very happily with my (now) dinosaur-ed old TV. Having bought a lovely new LG 2017 4k tv, the OS on it seems pretty damned good: Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, NAS streaming with Plex, BBC iplayer, etc all in fabulous resolution and the TV seamlessly picks the correct resolution without me having to guess or change settings.

So I'm just wondering since everyone talking on here about the Apple TV 4k must equally have a new TV with an equally good inbuilt OS, what are you all doing by adding an extra box? What is the value that you see, other than adding itunes as a subscription source which is no big deal given all the others out there, and adding some games which equally seems no big deal if you have a proper gaming machine under the telly.

Am I missing something? Genuinely, I expected to hop out and buy a new apple 4k box to fit underneath the new tv and am struggling to see a reason why. Plus I see all these complaints about it not really handling the resolution or the colour stream or the sound particularly well...

Purchased content from iTunes. Some people have lots of that content.

 

[Outdoordude01]

Purchased content from iTunes. Some people have lots of that content.

iTunes purchases, at least for movies really don't have the advantage they used to now with the Movies Anywhere service. I can buy a movie on iTunes and instantly have it on all my devices through Amazon/Vudu/Google Play. Yeah you get the 4K upgrade and other minor stuff but with Movies Anywhere, the old walled garden of iTunes is starting to crumble.

 

[Nunyabinez]

I still don't understand why people are playing movies at 30Hz or 60Hz. Almost all movies are 24hz. One of the great things about the Apple TV 4k is that I can set it to play at 4K 24Hz with Dolby Vision which makes the alternations to the video stream easy and seamless.

Blurays or Bluray rips look fantastic at this setting. Of course when navigating the UI, 24Hz is painful, so you have to switch back and forth, but there's not much you can do about that now, because there is little content that is actually presented in a native 4K 24hz, so TVs will require you to manually determine what your upscaling settings will be.

Of course if your TV can't do 24Hz that's one thing, but to watch a movie that was mastered at 24Hz at 30Hz or 60Hz doesn't make much sense to me unless you transcoded it to be 30Hz, which doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[archer75]

I still don't understand why people are playing movies at 30Hz or 60Hz. Almost all movies are 24hz. One of the great things about the Apple TV 4k is that I can set it to play at 4K 24Hz with Dolby Vision which makes the alternations to the video stream easy and seamless.

Blurays or Bluray rips look fantastic at this setting. Of course when navigating the UI, 24Hz is painful, so you have to switch back and forth, but there's not much you can do about that now, because there is little content that is actually presented in a native 4K 24hz, so TVs will require you to manually determine what your upscaling settings will be.

Of course if your TV can't do 24Hz that's one thing, but to watch a movie that was mastered at 24Hz at 30Hz or 60Hz doesn't make much sense to me unless you transcoded it to be 30Hz, which doesn't make sense to me either.

Yes, it does make the UI painful. And also the ATV doesn't auto switch so depending on what you're watching you may find yourself switching the settings often. It's annoying for sure. A lot of TV's can compensate for not being in 24hz. Mine does and I don't see any issues at all. So 30hz for me.

 

[Novus John]

I have an elcheapo tv which I use with aTV. The whole "smart tv" interface is simply said atrocious, it's a crime against humanity to use it in place of the aTV, also I don't trust the TV to access the outside world.

And since I own a mbp and an iphone, I find that the aTV does add a lot to the whole "ecosystem experience" thingy. ymmv depending on how you use your tv, especially if you own an expensive tv set.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

The Apple TV interface is simply beautiful. It's very easy to forget how good it is, until you visit friend's with other brands, use the product for a few minutes and then you realise how incredible the user interface with its beautiful typography etc is on the Apple TV. It's a design dream and always has been lovely ever since ATV2 for me! Also explains why I'm a big fan of Apple CarPlay!

 

[fathergll]

Long term speaking this is going to be an issue for Apple TV. Having an add on unit simply isn't going to be a long term play because TVs like Samsungs and LGs will continue to improve with software and apps leaving a standalone unit like Apple TV obsolete in some ways. This isn't just singling out Apple TV but ALL units like Roku. TVs are just too advanced at this point and will continue to gain ground. It will be like streaming vs discs in some ways. It will be one less remote and one less device and once less cable that people need.


I am assuming Apple will actually release a TV that has all of this built in to create a more unified TV/Internet experience and shake up the TV market.

 

[Juicy Box]

Having an add on unit simply isn't going to be a long term play because TVs like Samsungs and LGs will continue to improve with software and apps leaving a standalone unit like Apple TV obsolete in some ways.

I don't think this will happen any time soon. Besides, Samsung and LG are not the only TV manufacturers.

It will be like streaming vs discs in some ways.

I don't see too many similarities. I think that streaming video was made popular for convenience, and have access to lots of content for a relatively low cost.

It will be one less remote and one less device and once less cable that people need.

Well, in this case it is similar.

 

[Outdoordude01]

Long term speaking this is going to be an issue for Apple TV. Having an add on unit simply isn't going to be a long term play because TVs like Samsungs and LGs will continue to improve with software and apps leaving a standalone unit like Apple TV obsolete in some ways. This isn't just singling out Apple TV but ALL units like Roku. TVs are just too advanced at this point and will continue to gain ground. It will be like streaming vs discs in some ways. It will be one less remote and one less device and once less cable that people need.


I am assuming Apple will actually release a TV that has all of this built in to create a more unified TV/Internet experience and shake up the TV market.

It's already sort of happening. A lot of the old crappy smart tv platforms are gone and replaced by major players. My Sony 4K TV uses Android TV as the smart TV software. Roku is the smart TV software for Hitachi, Insignia, TCL, Sharp and more.

 

[archer75]

WebOS on LG is actually really good. And for 2017 models they are releasing an updated to support Dolby TrueHD/atmos on the TV and ARC. Not the current DD+/Lossy atmos but true lossless atmos. That's huge.

 

[fathergll]

I don't think this will happen any time soon. Besides, Samsung and LG are not the only TV manufacturers.

It's happening as we speak. I'm not saying Apple TV will be obsolete next year but everytime someone buys a new TV the included software becomes more advance and to the point where less and less people will be buying Rokus and Apple TVs. This is evident by the thread starter.

I don't see too many similarities. I think that streaming video was made popular for convenience, and have access to lots of content for a relatively low cost.

Right its the same thing here. It's more convenient(and cheaper) to use your TVs built in smart functions than shell out money for a Apple TV, hook it up and have yet another device.

The software on smart tvs are closing the gap quickly.
[doublepost=1508867420][/doublepost]

It's already sort of happening. A lot of the old crappy smart tv platforms are gone and replaced by major players. My Sony 4K TV uses Android TV as the smart TV software. Roku is the smart TV software for Hitachi, Insignia, TCL, Sharp and more.

Agreed. People buying TVs in the last few years are the first round of users converting over to the smart tv apps. This is only going to get more common as people purchase the newer tv models.

 

[priitv8]

It's already sort of happening. A lot of the old crappy smart tv platforms are gone and replaced by major players. My Sony 4K TV uses Android TV as the smart TV software. Roku is the smart TV software for Hitachi, Insignia, TCL, Sharp and more.

Still, I would ask from sony just a dumb display, what for do I need that crappy AndroidTV?
Apparently, to get such dumb screen, you'd need to turn to professional panels, hence pay a lot more.
We can return to this very topic after 2 years - by then we can see when was the last time sony did update your old model's firmware.

 

[mmm1345]

I've been using an apple tv for the last few years very happily with my (now) dinosaur-ed old TV. Having bought a lovely new LG 2017 4k tv, the OS on it seems pretty damned good: Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, NAS streaming with Plex, BBC iplayer, etc all in fabulous resolution and the TV seamlessly picks the correct resolution without me having to guess or change settings.

So I'm just wondering since everyone talking on here about the Apple TV 4k must equally have a new TV with an equally good inbuilt OS, what are you all doing by adding an extra box? What is the value that you see, other than adding itunes as a subscription source which is no big deal given all the others out there, and adding some games which equally seems no big deal if you have a proper gaming machine under the telly.

Am I missing something? Genuinely, I expected to hop out and buy a new apple 4k box to fit underneath the new tv and am struggling to see a reason why. Plus I see all these complaints about it not really handling the resolution or the colour stream or the sound particularly well...

TV OSs generally have a really limited selection of Apps and honestly I loathe Sony's implementation of AndroidTV, Samsung's Tsing Interface is really good and I love WebOS, but the common denominator for all of these services is Unless all you want are the big 3 Hulu, Amazon and Netflix (and YouTube 4K), TVOs' have a very limited selection of Apps.
[doublepost=1508869531][/doublepost]

Still, I would ask from sony just a dumb display, what for do I need that crappy AndroidTV?
Apparently, to get such dumb screen, you'd need to turn to professional panels, hence pay a lot more.
We can return to this very topic after 2 years - by then we can see when was the last time sony did update your old model's firmware.

Android TV is a free OS, it doesn't aad much, if anything to the cost of a TV.

 

[Juicy Box]

This is evident by the thread starter.

People have been asking this question for years. This thread isn't the first time someone has brought this up.

It's happening as we speak. I'm not saying Apple TV will be obsolete next year but everytime someone buys a new TV the included software becomes more advance and to the point where less and less people will be buying Rokus and Apple TVs.

It's more convenient

I can agree with this, but it isn't nearly the level of convenience, or as cheap that switching to streaming from physical media.

Again, I am not disagreeing with a lot of the stuff you said, but just like you, I doubt in the next year that much will change. Probably not in the next few years either.

Just my opinion....