Apple CEO Tim Cook: 'I Will Fight Until My Toes Point Up' for DACA

[BootsWalking]

False equivalency. Who makes up the priorities of what should be dealt with? You?

Mr. Cook has spoken out in support of human rights and privacy protection in the USA. So where exactly is my false equivalency?

Are you ceasing all purchases in China due to political situation? And if you’re not, why should cook deal with them first before other important items?

I'm not the one proclaiming myself to be an outspoken advocate for such things. Mr. Cook is. That's where the hypocrisy thing comes in.

 

[I7guy]

Mr. Cook has spoken out in support of human rights and privacy protection in the USA. So where exactly is my false equivalency?

Is Apple a US company? He has also spoken out on a number of other different and important issues. Because he is not taking on every injustice in the world directly does not make him hypocritical.

I'm not the one proclaiming myself to be an outspoken advocate for such things. Mr. Cook is. That's where the hypocrisy thing comes in.

Cook is a person and CEO, not a god and certainly not hypocritical. Maybe hypocritical to you, but okay, that's the discussion.

 

[BootsWalking]

Is Apple a US company? He has also spoken out on a number of other different and important issues. Because he is not taking on every injustice in the world directly does not make him hypocritical.

Apple has enormous operations in China, so they're more of a Chinese company than an American one. And by operations I include all the third-party companies that exist almost exclusively to serve Apple's manufacturing ecosystem.

 

[I7guy]

Apple has enormous operations in China, so they're more of a Chinese company than an American one.

Exactly what assets does Apple own in China? It was my understanding they paid companies to manufacture their products, the same as many other companies in the world. Are you saying Apple owns companies in China?

And by operations I include all the third-party companies that exist almost exclusively to serve Apple's manufacturing ecosystem.

This is a deflection and has nothing to do the original assertion that Cook is hypocritical as much of the world has product manufactured in China. (In fact Apple does have guidelines for it's manufacturing partners)

But I hope you are doing your part since you believe it should be important for Cook, not having any information on how and what Cook may be doing, but just slinging criticism.

 

[BootsWalking]

Exactly what assets does Apple own in China? It was my understanding they paid companies to manufacture their products, the same as many other companies in the world. Are you saying Apple owns companies in China?


This is a deflection and has nothing to do the original assertion that Cook is hypocritical as much of the world has product manufactured in China. (In fact Apple does have guidelines for it's manufacturing partners)

But I hope you are doing your part since you believe it should be important for Cook, not having any information on how and what Cook may be doing, but just slinging criticism.

The fact most of their manufacturing in China is performed by separately owned entities is only a legal and political distinction (required to adhere to China's regulations). Apple has made enormous capital investments in these companies to build up their manufacturing capacity and expertise. It's about as meaningless a distinction as an employee vs contract worker in the USA - they both effectively work for the company.

But I hope you are doing your part since you believe it should be important for Cook, not having any information on how and what Cook may be doing, but just slinging criticism.

My part is not to pretend I care about such matters like Mr. Cook has. If he virtue signaled any stronger there would be a light beacon around his head.

 

[I7guy]

The fact most of their manufacturing in China is performed by separately owned entities is only a legal and political distinction (required to adhere to China's regulations). Apple has made enormous capital investments in these companies to build up their manufacturing capacity and expertise. It's about as meaningless a distinction as an employee vs contract worker in the USA - they both effectively work for the company.

You are trying to nuance this. Apple does not own Foxconn or any other partner. Apple does not control hiring or firing at these plants. That is different than a "typical tech" contractor in the US where the company does approve and can fire contractors and they operate as employees, without the benefits.

My part is not to pretend I care about such matters like Mr. Cook has. If he virtue signaled any stronger there would be a light beacon around his head.

It's certainly within your rights to have your own (negative) opinion of Cook, one I do not share. However, the above is just plain silly.

 

[BootsWalking]

You are trying to nuance this. Apple does not own Foxconn or any other partner. Apple does not control hiring or firing at these plants. That is different than a "typical tech" contractor in the US where the company does approve and can fire contractors and they operate as employees, without the benefits.

Apple didn't get involved in Foxconn's employment practices after the spate of suicides at their factories in China? They perform regular inspections and audits of labor practices at these plants. There certainly is nuancing going on here but I'm not the one partaking in it. Apple made direct capital investments in these companies. You think Apple just gives away billions of dollars without any effective/implied ownership stake in them?

 

[I7guy]

Apple didn't get involved in Foxconn's employment practices after the spate of suicides at their factories in China? They perform regular inspections and audits of labor practices at these plants.

Does Apple hire or fire or just insist on a safe working environment? It's the latter and great that Apple does that.

There certainly is nuancing going on here but I'm not the one partaking in it. Apple made direct capital investments in these companies. You think Apple just gives away billions of dollars without any effective/implied ownership stake in them?

I'm not the one partaking in the nuancing. Apple does not own any manufacturing assets. They don't hire and fire. Cook is under no obligation to have has his priority of supported causes your priority list and that doesn't make him hypocritical because you don't like the order of the list.

 

[dan110]

Indians (and more so the Chinese) flooding American computer science programs is not pro-America. Just means one less American with a college degree, and additionally these people trying enter the job market in mass numbers after through H1B programs displaces American engineers because H1B hires are often cheaper longterm (they have less leverage to move around). The tech industry here is extremely saturated right now due to this reason.

Universities are eager to accept these foreign students because they can (and do) legally charge them significantly higher tuition, and foreigners studying in the US are not eligible for federal financial aid. This means the college aged portion of the combined 3 billion Indian and Chinese people in the world are seen as a HUGE profit source by college administrators here in America. At UC schools, foreign students pay triple the tuition rate of Americans, and the schools are taking so many of them that UC Berkeley had to be capped at "only" 20% foreign. It's absolutely ridiculous and amoral. Keep American colleges American, put Americans first, and stop exploiting these people who are so desperate to get a western degree.

That might be true for west coast schools, but I wouldn't say it hold true nation-wide.

Plus, you left out the fact that, nationally, "American" born college students are not choosing to pursue the difficult majors that foreign-born students don't shy away from. These include many of the engineering and mathematics based programs.

Finally, it's a verifiable fact that foreign-born students go on to start most businesses when compared to their native-born peers. Why would we block individuals that are fueling the nation's innovation engine?
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Get your facts straight re #3: Children born in the US are US Citizens from birth. The US is one of the only countries left on the planet that still allows this. Even the beloved New Zealand got rid of "anchor baby" citizenship years ago.

RE #1: The H-1B program has NEVER required that employment markets show a shortage of labor supply before visa are issued for jobs in those markets(look it up). The lack of such protection caused an oversupply of (mainly tech) workers, and a reduction of salary levels. We need a guest worker program, but not one that damages labor markets by scuttling wages. In a capitalist democracy, congress has the power and duty to enact legislation to allow proper function of free markets - including immigration policy. But congress should NOT be able to damage markets by killing wages. The H-1B visa program has been abused and needs to be repealed and replaced with a system that protects U.S. workers. But to many powerful people (specifically in tech) have members of congress in their pockets for that to happen.

The issue with DACA relates to their eligibility to work legally. That eligibility was granted by bureaucrats within the USCIS, not by enacting proper legislation. The same issue also applies to granting spouses of H-1B visa holders the employment eligibility. This has become a free ticket to work in the US via arranged marriages. This issue was heard by SCOTUS last week, and its decision is pending. Like the H-1B problems, this is also a money = power problem.

#2 Will not work if it is fine based. Imposition of a higher tax rates on aliens over (at least) 10 years is the only way to vet them properly. Some taxation of employers hiring aliens should also occur.

Totally agree on #4. Spend extra taxes collected from aliens to build it.

Also, the US should heavily tax ALL funds sent out of the US that are earned by alien work visa holders. More to spend on the wall.

The goal of ALL immigration policy should be to enable proper functioning of free markets.

The main problem now is how to fix the damage to employment supply caused by these reckless immigration policies. The US education system generates less STEM graduates than it did decades ago, and the number continues to plummet. Why go into tech if your wages will be suppressed and you'll be screwed out of a job after you turn 40?

Now the US is in a panic because there is no 5G telecom equipment vendor. Duh, why would anyone invest in a 5G startup when there's no one to hire, or your IP will be stolen by the Chinese?

Timmy's emotional "until my toes point up" platitude only demonstrates how immigration policy can be spun into emotional manipulation. This is how common sense goes out the window.

Power of government should be limited and not driven by emotions.

#1 typo.... CORRECTION: it should read .."were *NOT* born in the US" per the 14th Amendment. (BTW: No need to be hostile.)

#2 I never said the H-1B Visa needed to show a supply shortage to make a requirement?

#3 Taxation = Fine = Taxation

 

[BootsWalking]

Does Apple hire or fire or just insist on a safe working environment? It's the latter and great that Apple does that.


I'm not the one partaking in the nuancing. Apple does not own any manufacturing assets. They don't hire and fire. Cook is under no obligation to have has his priority of supported causes your priority list and that doesn't make him hypocritical because you don't like the order of the list.

The fact Apple has a say in how Foxconn runs their factory and their labor should be a clue to you that Apple is not just an arms-length customer. And you still keep ignoring the fact that Apple has invested capital in the company, which is another clue that they're not just a customer. You can keep your head in the sand if you want - that's your choice - but it doesn't change the reality of the situation that Apple has a huge presence in China and it's not just as a "customer". And the reason why Mr Cook's ignoring of the human rights and privacy violations in that country makes him a hypocrite when he crows about the same thing inside the USA.

 

[I7guy]

The fact Apple has a say in how Foxconn runs their factory and their labor should be a clue to you that Apple is not just an arms-length customer.

There is no clue. This is the way business works all over the world.

And you still keep ignoring the fact that Apple has invested capital in the company, which is another clue that they're not just a customer.

Yes and sometimes these capital improvements don't work out, such as in the sapphire glass factory in Arizona that went belly up. This is the way business works with these types of things.

You can keep your head in the sand if you want - that's your choice - but it doesn't change the reality of the situation that Apple has a huge presence in China and it's not just as a "customer".

A bit of snark followed by a factually incorrect statement.

And the reason why Mr Cook's ignoring of the human rights and privacy violations in that country makes him a hypocrite when he crows about the same thing inside the USA.

Basically, it seems you invented some rational in order to place a label on Mr. Cook. You're entitled to your "opinion", I disagree with it and the rational behind it.

 

[BootsWalking]

There is no clue. This is the way business works all over the world.


Yes and sometimes these capital improvements don't work out, such as in the sapphire glass factory in Arizona that went belly up. This is the way business works with these types of things.


A bit of snark followed by a factually incorrect statement.


Basically, it seems you invented some rational in order to place a label on Mr. Cook. You're entitled to your "opinion", I disagree with it and the rational behind it.

Apple has invested billions in China, relies on tens of thousands of workers in that country for their supply chain, yet you somehow think Mr. Cook looking the other way at China's human rights and privacy abuses while complaining about those here is somehow not hypocritical. And I'm the one inventing rationale for my opinion? Like I said, head in the sand.

 

[I7guy]

Apple has invested billions in China, relies on tens of thousands of workers in that country for their supply chain, yet you somehow think Mr. Cook looking the other way at China's human rights and privacy abuses while complaining about those here is somehow not hypocritical. And I'm the one inventing rationale for my opinion? Like I said, head in the sand.

The world has invested billions in China, this somehow should not be news to anyone. Investments from China into foreign countries have been allowed for a while and investments from China have been allowed to buy up (most of) every type of thing in the US. Is the US Govt being hypocritical? Do you know for 100% sure what Cook has said or done that is not reported on, that actually renders your "opinion" incorrect?

This type of, "hypocrisy", apparently is a big issue for you. Do you or your family have any products at all where the country of manufacture is partially or fully China, or for that matter any country including the US where government has proven to abuse it's citizens and/or visitors? Are you a type of personna that is "do as I say, but not as I do"?

Has this conversation about DACA totally run its' course?

 

[BootsWalking]

The world has invested billions in China, this somehow should not be news to anyone. Investments from China into foreign countries have been allowed for a while and investments from China have been allowed to buy up (most of) every type of thing in the US. Is the US Govt being hypocritical? Do you know for 100% sure what Cook has said or done that is not reported on, that actually renders your "opinion" incorrect?

This type of, "hypocrisy", apparently is a big issue for you. Do you or your family have any products at all where the country of manufacture is partially or fully China, or for that matter any country including the US where government has proven to abuse it's citizens and/or visitors? Are you a type of personna that is "do as I say, but not as I do"?

Has this conversation about DACA totally run its' course?

You're asking the same questions you've already asked and answered - I'm not the one virtue signaling about human rights and privacy - Mr. Cook is. But he only talks about it when it doesn't affect his own financial interest, ie doesn't comment on one of the worst offenders of these rights in the world. Hence the hypocrisy. I guess the tens of thousands of people in China are worthy enough to put together his company's products but aren't worthy enough to have their human rights spoken about or protected. What an outstanding champion of humanity.

 

[I7guy]

You're asking the same questions you've already asked and answered -

Because the same circular reasoning is being posted again?

I'm not the one virtue signaling about human rights and privacy - Mr. Cook is.

Correct. And Mr. Cook is under no obligation to take on your list in your priority.

But he only talks about it when it doesn't affect his own financial interest, ie doesn't comment on one of the worst offenders of these rights in the world.

Hence my question to you about “do as I say and not as i do.

Hence the hypocrisy.

It would be hypocritical calling Mr. Cook out for the same thing one is also doing. Hence, “do as I say and not as I do”.

I guess the tens of thousands of people in China are worthy enough to put together his company's products but aren't worthy enough to have their human rights spoken about or protected. What an outstanding champion of humanity.

This is not clearly apples issue as Products originating in China are a large part of the worlds inventory. But let’s place the burden on Apple and then hypocritically blame Apple for not solving it. Charity starts at home as the saying goes.

 

[BootsWalking]

Because the same circular reasoning is being posted again?


Correct. And Mr. Cook is under no obligation to take on your list in your priority.



Hence my question to you about “do as I say and not as i do.


It would be hypocritical calling Mr. Cook out for the same thing one is also doing. Hence, “do as I say and not as I do”.


This is not clearly apples issue as Products originating in China are a large part of the worlds inventory. But let’s place the burden on Apple and then hypocritically blame Apple for not solving it. Charity starts at home as the saying goes.

And how exactly is it circular logic? I called Mr. Cook a hypocrite for saying he's a defender of human rights and privacy but ignoring such things in the country that he relies on to manufacture his products. I did not claim myself to be a defender of such things so how does "do as I say not as I do" have any meaning or relevance to this discussion?

 

[I7guy]

And how exactly is it circular logic? I called Mr. Cook a hypocrite for saying he's a defender of human rights and privacy but ignoring such things in the country that he relies on to manufacture his products. I did not claim myself to be a defender of such things so how does "do as I say not as I do" have any meaning or relevance to this discussion?

We've each made our points in the last 30 or so posts, with not surprisingly no one's mind being changed. The world will decide and if history means anything this little internet sidebar conversation, doesn't mean much in the totality of changing the worlds' opinion. Whatever that may be.

 

[amegicfox]

he is disgusting

 

[I7guy]

he is disgusting

Who is disgusting?