Apple.com blocked in China?

[iris_failsafe]

Every country screws up, the US did it, punish the guilty and move on.


As for this China thing, it is a dictatorship, buying a mac doesn't compensate for freedom and access whatever page you want to

 

[mhar4]

For what it's worth, I don't think many countries look up to America.
Most people in the UK are becoming aware of Americas dreadful foreign policies that have angered so many people around the world. I just wish I was exposed to less US culture (it's hard to avoid) and more from other places (such as China).

Do we really want perfect hollywood smiles masking poor educational standards?.. and as for the fast food!

Ahem... I hate to point this out, but the UK is the US's number 1 ally and has followed US foreign policy lock-step for years.

And as for the food! Have you eaten food in the UK???!!! The worst food in the world.

 

[mhar4]

I've been living and working in Southern China for more than six months now, and from what I can ascertain, these people are not ready for liberal democracy. Much as I admire their culture and social resilience, I don't see the Chinese population as an aggregate whole possessing the necessary forebearance, altruism, education and civic sense to institute self-governance.

Well, people said that about the Taiwanese for years. Including many Taiwanese themselves. Same goes for China, and you'll hear many Chinese saying that 'the people' aren't ready for democracy. But hey, look at India. Less educated population overall, but with a democracy that just about works. It's communism followed by robber-baron capitalism that has attenuated civil society in China.

Note: I am not an anthropologist nor a sociologist, and I'm not yet a political analyst - but I am an economist. So take my comments or leave them.

I *am* a sociologist specializing in China and Taiwan.

 

[iMan]

It's communism followed by robber-baron capitalism that has attenuated civil society in China.

With a good deal of help from western opportunists, I might add...

Still; why do we in the west always want things to change right away (to what we see as right) - MTV like action? Why can't we let this process in China just follow it's course - it will be a rightful democracy in time, and no good will come of overturning the system in a vast continent like this.
What the coalition wants to achieve in Iraq would most certainly have been solved with less pain, loss of innocent lifes and time letting the diplomacy and course of history do the work.
War and violence has rarely solved any issue through history - much less been the successful road to build nations from the outside.

Even if things take 10, 20 or even 50 years, that is just minutes in the 5000 years of human civilisation. Patience is a virtue... (and one that Mac-lovers should have learned quite well )

 

[SoGood]

At the moment, as far as I can see it, the PRC Central Government is pretty much the glue holding the country together, rather than the Universal Subjugator some here have mentioned. I'm not a fan of many of their policies - far from it - but running a country such as China is a truly hapless task.

America is working for the good of the Chinese people? No! It's working for the interest of the US. And splitting up and weaking of China is to its benefit. Simple as that. The Iraq war has quite simply unmasked the true driving force of US foreign policies.

 

[SoGood]

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic - which could prove embarrassing in two weeks when my boss and I have dinner with Ambassador Yang at his residence.

Holy ****! Without knowledge of the cultural background, how can you ever start to understand the intricacies of a society, a country? Maybe you and your boss should uncap the cold-war mentality cap first. You know... Think Different!

 

[mhar4]

America is working for the good of the Chinese people? No! It's working for the interest of the US. And splitting up and weaking of China is to its benefit. Simple as that. The Iraq war has quite simply unmasked the true driving force of US foreign policies.

Huh? What is America doing to split and weaken China? A weakened and divided China is the last thing the US wants.

 

[mhar4]

With a good deal of help from western opportunists, I might add...

Still; why do we in the west always want things to change right away (to what we see as right) - MTV like action?

Even if things take 10, 20 or even 50 years, that is just minutes in the 5000 years of human civilisation. Patience is a virtue... (and one that Mac-lovers should have learned quite well )

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.

 

[iMan]

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.

Oh, well... that would be quite understandable, no.. ?

If the people needs change, the people should change it. Besides - a minority, as Hong Kong represents, could hardly dictate the fate of all of China. That would not be democracy now, would it?

 

[mhar4]

If the people needs change, the people should change it. Besides - a minority, as Hong Kong represents, could hardly dictate the fate of all of China. That would not be democracy now, would it?

Yikes. Are you a party member? That's real Maoist logic!

 

[meta-ghost]

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.

hey mate, there were plenty who were also in a "hurry" during the british colonial period. only back then, the queen surely wouldn't allow 500,000 to gather.

relax, the reference to a long chinese history isn't an apology. just a reference point to the west.

 

[ergman]

just a confirmation. my access to apple & more importantly all blogspots (including my own) have been blocked for almost 3 weeks as well. being in china for a few years, i can tell you there's definitely IP/internet censorship but you didn't hear that from me.. you can try a proxy server(i find s.korea's effective) but you will have to keep switching. keep the faith

 

[mhar4]

As we get closer to the fifteenth anniversary of June 4 1989, the government is blocking more and more sites.

 

[iMan]

Yikes. Are you a party member? That's real Maoist logic!

So you favour a selected few to do the change? Or even a foreign power?
Well, if that is the american logic bless you, but it sounds a lot more like someone feels a little more equal than others...

Like it or not, but it just might happen that the west does not have the optimum solution for everything all the time... Remember also that if China for instance should instantly move to our "standards" - which also requires a surge in living standards - it might well prove that they also inherit some of our lesser sides; the pollution, traffic congestion, overly consumer focusing and such... when we have not solved these issues, we certainly can't expect others to just by following us...

 

[mhar4]

Again, huh??

This is nothing to do with Western hegemony over China, quite the reverse. It is suggesting that cultural relativism not be an excuse for political reform. Chinese civilization has been "ahead" of the West for centuries, but being dragged out of your home in the middle of the night, as recently happened to three members of Mothers of Tiananmen, is just not right and not Chinese, either.

 

[reyesmac]

There is a Powerbook that says "Tokyo" on it on the front page of Apple.com. Maybe the chicoms have a problem with that.
Its ok for the government there to allow people to manufacture american goods of all kinds there but when it comes to the peoples choice of where they want to go on the internet they get all repressive?

 

[qubex]

Well, people said that about the Taiwanese for years. Including many Taiwanese themselves. Same goes for China, and you'll hear many Chinese saying that 'the people' aren't ready for democracy.

Hrm... funny you should bring up Taiwan. Tell me, exactly how much mutual forebearance is implicit in refusing to acknowledge a newly-re-elected President? Is that indicative of a mature and functional system of democratic government?

Perhaps the Taiwanese naysayers were right?

Anyway, thank you for bolstering my case with evidence I hadn't considered yet.

And allow me to pre-empt the obvious Bush-vs.-Gore analogy: in the end, albeit reluctantly, Gore and the whole Democratic Party did acknowledge George W. Bush as President, despite their reservations. Forebearance and sound compromise are vital ingredients of a democratic system. Gratuitous polarisation will only result in complete chaos: at the end of the day, any President is better than no President at all.

 

[SignTist]

I've been a member here for quite some time... just post very rarely. I gotta say this has been the best thread I've read in a long time... I've yet to see the contentions gathered here arise in another forum elsewhere, be it political, amusement, or computer related. I have to aplaud all the people who replied and made their case/ presence known about how things are with their side of the world through experience either in life or because of business. Absolutely amazing.


BTW, I'd just like to point out one small factor: I see so many here that have made their choice about what US foreign policy is doing to nations across the world, not just one's that we chose to go to war with. I have a small thought about this, and it's that the entire world has changed since 9-11. And it may be due to foreign policy, but it is entirely possible that it's also because of the censorship that others (think middle east) feel they should have the control over others and thier "school of thought" (think muslim extremists). I don't believe people are born evil, or bad or however you want to explain it... but I do believe it is instilled through some culture, through poverty and the need to do something about it. Is the Muslim world so pissed at the US because we went to war? Yes, but I believe tha'ts a small factor compared to the bigger picture. For decades many were suffering under oppresive rule, witnessing murder, executions, brutality, and torture. These are all ways to instill how people think and understand how humanity and respect for others is handled. A cheating spouse is stoned... a thief has his hands cut off, and standing up for a political belief is execution. The middle east is more pissed by the fact that it took the US THIS long to come in and do something about it... but now there are so many extremists, that the one's that do appreciate what has been done are probably too old to do anything about it, and you all know that nothing major is done by the old... it's done with the new and the young.

I cried like a baby watching that poor bastard in the beheading video. I was thrown with nausea, and couldn't believe that this is the Modern world. But truth be told, the world is not that modern for some other countries, and they are content with that. They want to be able to carry weapons, and stone, and torture, and the list goes on... I"m sure you've had feeling of " I'd kill him for doing this to me"... but do you? of course not... having several muslim friends, and talking to them about life there, severe punishment for some type of betrayal, or even a remark doesn't go without punishment! I and possible many of you consider that completely rediculous, but without a fair judicial system, without some type of representation which holds some responsibility to itself and regard for the law, things won't change for the different... they'll just remain moderately adjusted so that all this information is kept inside and not visible to people like you and I, and once again... we return to oppressed information which leads me back to the beginning of my point. Hope you all take care, it'll probably be another year or two before I post again.

 

[fixyourthinking]

The Discovery Channel...

... (think muslim extremists). I don't believe people are born evil, or bad or however you want to explain it... but I do believe it is instilled through some culture, through poverty and the need to do something about it.... possible many of you consider that completely rediculous, but without a fair judicial system, without some type of representation which holds some responsibility to itself and regard for the law, things won't change for the different... they'll just remain moderately adjusted so that all this information is kept inside and not visible to people like you and I, and once again... we return to oppressed information which leads me back to the beginning of my point. Hope you all take care, it'll probably be another year or two before I post again.

There was NOTHING modern or even regressive to caveman about that beheading - it was ANIMAL - not human - whether instilled, inherently evil, or vengeful.

The last time I saw something as brutal and gruesome I was watching the Discovery Channel - Tigers were fighting over territory.

Please don't say that the people in "that video" were human or give them ANY defense . (Which I realize you were not doing - but nothing is to blame for that!)

 

[iMan]

I cried like a baby watching that poor bastard in the beheading video. I was thrown with nausea, and couldn't believe that this is the Modern world. But truth be told, the world is not that modern for some other countries, and they are content with that. They want to be able to carry weapons, and stone, and torture, and the list goes on... I"m sure you've had feeling of " I'd kill him for doing this to me"... but do you? of course not... having several muslim friends, and talking to them about life there, severe punishment for some type of betrayal, or even a remark doesn't go without punishment!

Oh well. I feel like I am about to appear anti-american - but I am certainly not! I admire a lot about the american heritage - and maybe that is why I am so disappointed with the americans now involved in things like the Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the wedding party killings, the support of the israelis killing innocent demonstrants/refugees with rockets... all of these are things that make me cry. And get real angry! This is torture and suppression at its worst and most ugly - and a lot of why other terrorists (Bush is no less in my opinion) is on the rise; violence gives birth to more violence. I am sorry, but I believe that the rage in muslim societies and the attacks the US har experienced they have brought upon themselves with the arrogance they have acted towards certain populations - lately also the european. I really feel sad about it, because I really believe the road for a better world is of tolerance, understanding and mutual respect for those not alike - and not forcing our ways onto others.

I should probably leave this discussion now too...

 

[SignTist]

There was NOTHING modern or even regressive to caveman about that beheading - it was ANIMAL - not human - whether instilled, inherently evil, or vengeful.

The last time I saw something as brutal and gruesome I was watching the Discovery Channel - Tigers were fighting over territory.

Please don't say that the people in "that video" were human or give them ANY defense . (Which I realize you were not doing - but nothing is to blame for that!)

Good point... but I didn't make an excuse, I was merely trying to point out that it isn't just American foreign policy that is the culprit for all this... it's also soemthing that is bred into people in places that believe in sun gods and the likes or think that everything that falls upon them is an attack on their religion. Sheesh... why are people not reading?

 

[qubex]

Good point... but I didn't make an excuse, I was merely trying to point out that it isn't just American foreign policy that is the culprit for all this... it's also soemthing that is bred into people in places that believe in sun gods and the likes or think that everything that falls upon them is an attack on their religion. Sheesh... why are people not reading?

As a non-American, I can reliably inform you that this is exactly the kind of attiutude that infuriates the rest of the world. It's not that other peoples percieve the USA to be out to get them, or that they consider everything to be an attack on their religion. It's the condescending tone and the belitteling that Americans so successfully engage in whenever they discuss other people's beleifs, cultures and religions. "Sun Gods"?! WTF? Islam is one of the great monotheistic religions and has in the past (and does in the present) inspire great learning, great tollerance and humanity.

Have Muslim fundamentalists ever come forth and told the American people how they should run the internal affairs of America? Not to my knowledge! No: they've been making demands relating to the Middle East, their own homelands. It is America that continually intervenes (clumsily, I may add) in the affairs of other nations. The methods of the terrorists are despicable, to be sure, but to ignore this crucial distinction is tantramount to intellectual dishonesty. People are sick and tired of being looked down on. The world is rebelling against America's holier-than-thou attitude.

That said, the violence is inexcusable. When I saw that video I was physically sick to my stomach. I still see it in my nightmare sometimes. The barbarity is beyond compare. Those who did this are truly animals. My civility does not permit me to entertain the punishment that should be metered out to them - suffice it to say that at the end of it, they'd be begging for death.

 

[herrmill]

Apple.com blocked in China

As of yesterday afternoon, I've been able to access Apple.com again here in Shanghai

 

[qubex]

As of yesterday afternoon, I've been able to access Apple.com again here in Shanghai

I confirm. It works from here in Guangzhou (Canton) too.

 

[SignTist]

Did you notice me saying something negative about anything muslim? I don't recall saying it.. and I didn't read it. I wrote about the "extremists"... which is what they do. They have their fairy tale beliefs which is why I compared it to sun gods. What you need to do is get off the high horse, and start to see that everything is there in plain english, but you want to see it another way. Don't know why... mb it's because you live in another culture, well that's great... I hope you enjoy that lifestyle and it benefits you and your loved ones as much as you wish it to. But understand that this is why so many people feel so indifferently about us as americans and as a culture. Because we don't want to see stupid fairy tale crap...we want to work hard at something and turn it itno some type of a fruit that will blossom. I myself don't have much respect for these brain washed nutcases, but I do pity them. They are the product of a society that you so desperately are trying to defend, for unknown purposes.