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One2Grift

Cancelled
Jun 1, 2021
609
546
For those of us who don't live there: Is this "housing crisis" possible to solve?

E.g. there is something similar in Oslo (and AFAIK, many other attractive areas) which are experiencing population growth. However, as there aren't more areas to build on - and established housing areas obviously don't want high density buildings built where they life as this would diminish their own quality of life (infrastructure can't handle it, and also takes away things like sun and views) - it's a topic that everyone wants to fix, but aren't actually able to do much about.

As a result, prices keep on growing - and I'm sure happy I don't have to start from scratch now. I've got a decent house (145 sqm in a nice area), and that's worth about $1.5 million now - which is insane, as Norwegian top salaries just aren't that high. The pay scales are extremely compressed compared to e.g. US - much higher for low income, much lower for high income.

There is more area to build on. They choose not to build on it. I don't agree or disagree with that, per se, but they have for example green belts that were put in place.
Their other option is to stop making new home constructions so onerous. With this type of staggering imbalance of demand/need for housing versus the availability/supply of housing, a single acre that contains 3 older flattops can be turned into quite a few townhomes or condos. But the land is super expensive, leveling/disposal is expensive, rezoning, changed power hookups, water hookups, sewage hookups, many numerous code and regulation hurdles -- it makes the process one that can only be met by few builders.
They're either going to build out(onto greenbelts), build up(taller buildings), seriously reorg the process for existing land to be turned into denser housing, people have to move away(lower the demand) -----> or the cost of a 2bedroom/1bath apartment will continue it's march upward (3k to 4k per month?).
 
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One2Grift

Cancelled
Jun 1, 2021
609
546
Tax corporations. Is a tax a cost of doing business? What do businesses do when they're costs go up? Should we tax someone's wealth so that other people can keep more of theirs?

Tax corporations is the belief of the glib. You buy bread, you make the bread companies pay ten cents more per loaf, who actually believes the bread company doesn't raise their loaf of bread ten cents? They raise it ten cents or cut workforce/worker pay.

Raising corporate taxes is just a way to make consumers pay more taxes while making some believe the tax is egalitarian/not on you.
 

steve333

macrumors 65816
Dec 12, 2008
1,279
909
You can put all the billions in all the funds that you want. It will not solve the problem for the following reason. There are not enough houses for demand. As a result, buyers are forced to bid up prices on the houses that are available. Giving out billions of dollars simply will result in people using that money to bid up the prices of the same number of available houses to an even ***higher*** level.

The problem is not that Apple has failed to give away money in the past. So giving away money now will not solve the problem. Rather, the problem is a lack of available houses for sale. The solution -- and the ONLY solution -- is for (1) the state and the local municipalities to change zoning laws and issue way more building permits, and (2) eliminate taxes and regulations that prohibit, and drive up the cost of, construction.
Nope, building more just leads to overcrowding and overpopulation which is where we are right now.
The answer is to stop growing and to reduce immigration to replacement numbers which is around 400,000/year instead of the over 1 million.year we are allowing now.
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,953
25,934
Wait, what? They gave company's $1b to some random causes? What about returning those monies to SHAREHOLDERS who own the company. Capitalism isn't a charity case. Set up a not for profit if you want to do the social warrior bit but do it without spending money that should be returned to shareholders.

And the commitment is actually $2.5 billion.

If you don't like Apple's policies with respect to dealing with the housing crisis, sell your Apple shares and products. Stat!

Easy.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
12,852
6,892
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
For those of us who don't live there: Is this "housing crisis" possible to solve?

E.g. there is something similar in Oslo (and AFAIK, many other attractive areas) which are experiencing population growth. However, as there aren't more areas to build on - and established housing areas obviously don't want high density buildings built where they life as this would diminish their own quality of life (infrastructure can't handle it, and also takes away things like sun and views) - it's a topic that everyone wants to fix, but aren't actually able to do much about.

As a result, prices keep on growing - and I'm sure happy I don't have to start from scratch now. I've got a decent house (145 sqm in a nice area), and that's worth about $1.5 million now - which is insane, as Norwegian top salaries just aren't that high. The pay scales are extremely compressed compared to e.g. US - much higher for low income, much lower for high income.

I'm very curious how 'high density buildings built' ... 'would diminish their(anyones) own quality of life'???

Do you mean someone's own sense of worth, importance, ego, and ability to brag or exclusitivity? Sounds very similar to people living in suburbs or out of a metropolis do not want public transit as they feel the poor or rif-raf would destroy their homes/liveliness or sense of security.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,808
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
And the commitment is actually $2.5 billion.

If you don't like Apple's policies with respect to dealing with the housing crisis, sell your Apple shares and products. Stat!

Easy.
Why should I sell up? I'm here to maximize my profits not to see money mis-spent on something which is irrelevant to Apple Inc. This is a corporation where directors have a fiduciary requirement to maximize shareholder value. They should be investigated by the SEC for misuse of company profits.
 

mudflap

macrumors 6502a
Aug 24, 2007
532
983
Chicago
Build more houses. Simple solution.

Instead of Supply / (Demand*10) try Supply / (Demand*1.5)

Apple throwing money in to a black box isn't going to do anything. Builders want to build. That's what they do. They aren't making money unless they are building. And they don't need incentives from Apple, or any other tech company to do their job. Unfortunately places like CA make it extremely difficult on them. Remove those restrictions and stand back.

Maybe one day CA will catch on before the last productive members of their state leave for better places like Texas and Florida.
I would rather stick needles in my eyes than to live in Florida or Texas.
 

TraceyS/FL

macrumors 601
Jan 11, 2007
4,173
313
North Central Florida
Maybe one day CA will catch on before the last productive members of their state leave for better places like Texas and Florida.
Florida housing has gone insane. I had 2 people texting me to buy my house, I threw a random price out and they were going for it. Yikes, so I looked around, more yikes, there was nothing I could by near my parents. Sooo, not selling guys.

FL wages aren’t in anyway keeping up with housing, and I feel horrid for a friend that is ready to buy and her price range went poof (and we already are an hour nw of Orlando). I don’t think this problem can fix itself, same as the affordable housing in the area.

We left CA for FL in 2003, and I didn’t think then it could get crazier… boy was I wrong. ?
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,953
25,934
Why should I sell up? I'm here to maximize my profits not to see money mis-spent on something which is irrelevant to Apple Inc. This is a corporation where directors have a fiduciary requirement to maximize shareholder value. They should be investigated by the SEC for misuse of company profits.

Ha! That's a real knee-slapper!

You may not be aware that corporations routinely give to charitable organizations, disaster (earthquake/flood/fire/etc) relief, and other types of aid. Without raising the eyebrows of the SEC.
 

VictorTango777

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2017
890
1,626
People like to blame zoning laws in California while this continues to go unnoticed:




One of the most naive, insensitive, disgusting, pandering interviews I have ever read:

"You’ve been buying a lot of rental housing. Is that because you think young adults aren’t as interested in buying their own homes?"
 
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dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,808
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
You may not be aware that corporations routinely give to charitable organizations, disaster (earthquake/flood/fire/etc) relief, and other types of aid. Without raising the eyebrows of the SEC.
I can't say what happens at other companies but I'm sure they don't give away $1b to something that is totally not connected to the company product line. AAPL is there to maximize shareholder VALUE. Nothing more.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,311
24,047
Gotta be in it to win it
I can't say what happens at other companies but I'm sure they don't give away $1b to something that is totally not connected to the company product line. AAPL is there to maximize shareholder VALUE. Nothing more.
 
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amartinez1660

macrumors 68000
Sep 22, 2014
1,587
1,622
This is nice and all but rather than relying on the largess of companies it would be nice if we just taxed corps and rich folks more and put the money to use directly...
It is my understanding that the vast majority of the total tax money collected is given by a tiny portion of people. I.e the richest ones. Something like 70% of the total absolute taxes collected come from the richest top 5% (or along those lines being lazy to find it back). Taxing even more those people will just continue an exodus.

In fact, you know what? I’ll join the train, I really hope that they increase the taxes even more in places like NY and CA, so much so that even more people will move to TX and FL. Let them go all in on this since I’m really curious what are they are going to do when that tax amount is slashed then.
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,953
25,934
I can't say what happens at other companies but I'm sure they don't give away $1b to something that is totally not connected to the company product line. AAPL is there to maximize shareholder VALUE. Nothing more.

As a percentage of pre-tax profit Apple's $1billion isn't unusual. Most large corporations have corporate philanthropy programs. Again, you might want to look into that.

If you don't like Apple's policy, give the Apple CEO and board of directors a piece of your mind by voting your shares to find replacements. Heh...
 
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xyz01

macrumors 6502
May 17, 2009
266
346
Oslo, Norway
I'm very curious how 'high density buildings built' ... 'would diminish their(anyones) own quality of life'???

Do you mean someone's own sense of worth, importance, ego, and ability to brag or exclusitivity? Sounds very similar to people living in suburbs or out of a metropolis do not want public transit as they feel the poor or rif-raf would destroy their homes/liveliness or sense of security.

In a couple of ways - the very small roads in these areas can't handle more traffic, parking will be harder, the public transport is already full (public transport is the most used means of communication in Oslo, not only among the hoi polloi, but also among the hoi oligoi), schools and kindergartens are full etc. Basically the infrastructure in large areas around the city was built to handle low density areas, and has already been stretched to the limit by the increased density as older houses are pulled down and replaced by 3-4 houses on the same area. Same thing applies in the areas where you have e.g 4 floor apartment buildings, and companies want to build e.g 8 floors next to that.

In addition to the infrastructure issue s, you obviously don't want a high, wide and massive wall where there once was green and sky.
 

xyz01

macrumors 6502
May 17, 2009
266
346
Oslo, Norway
Why should I sell up? I'm here to maximize my profits not to see money mis-spent on something which is irrelevant to Apple Inc. This is a corporation where directors have a fiduciary requirement to maximize shareholder value. They should be investigated by the SEC for misuse of company profits.

Of course not.

If shareholders aren't happy, they replace the board which are the ones that oversee how the company is run. Projecting good values and having a good corporate image is one way of increasing profits, BTW.
 
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Synchromesh

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2009
619
121
SF
Apple recognizes the demand is far outpacing the supply in CA. The exact same thing is happening all the way over here in MA. It‘s terrifying to see as someone who knows he’ll buy a house sometime in the next 10+ years.
My apologies, are you comparing an ugly cold rust-infested hell hole like MA with California? I've lived in both and let me tell you - they're not even in the same league. MA is small, full of m*$$holes and doesn't have 1/10 issues with housing that CA does. Nobody in their right mind would move to CA in the same amounts that they used to move to CA. If anything people were leaving. Hell, I left and it was the happiest day of my life.
 

IllinoisCorn

Suspended
Jan 15, 2021
1,217
1,652
Did any of the naysayers here even read the article?



Apple recognizes the demand is far outpacing the supply in CA. The exact same thing is happening all the way over here in MA. It‘s terrifying to see as someone who knows he’ll buy a house sometime in the next 10+ years.

Obviously, the people who build homes want to…do their job? Put food on the table? I know, I’m talking crazy. Alas, the solution isn’t to just lift all construction regulation and let them at it. One can have the best of faith in any company in the trades but they will always find ways to cut corners (no pun intended) if they can. Look at what happened in Florida. That is the kind of tragic thing that happens constantly in countries with little-to-no construction regulation. (Before anyone asks if I even know anyone in the trades, my aunt and uncle founded/have continued to run one of the most respectable wood finishing companies in all of New England for the last four decades. I’ve had more than my fair share of conversations about this topic.)

One more thing. I can’t imagine land itself is too cheap in CA…



This is incredibly laudable on Apple’s part. Full stop.
Always the evil corporations causing the problems and they cannot be trusted. The government, on the other hand, totally benevolent and trust worthy. Got it. Lol.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
12,852
6,892
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
In a couple of ways - the very small roads in these areas can't handle more traffic, parking will be harder, the public transport is already full (public transport is the most used means of communication in Oslo, not only among the hoi polloi, but also among the hoi oligoi), schools and kindergartens are full etc. Basically the infrastructure in large areas around the city was built to handle low density areas, and has already been stretched to the limit by the increased density as older houses are pulled down and replaced by 3-4 houses on the same area. Same thing applies in the areas where you have e.g 4 floor apartment buildings, and companies want to build e.g 8 floors next to that.

In addition to the infrastructure issue s, you obviously don't want a high, wide and massive wall where there once was green and sky.

Hmm. I’m not sure how old the city you mentioned is, and how infrastructure was built up over time.

Toronto over 100 yrs you can tell there are pockets or areas where roads are just terrible, and not through erosion alone, just poorly designed as an infrastructure due to now vision for increased citizen and travel capacity - and still today doing the same terrible mistakes like light rail (LRT) to connect a considerable hilly terrain - splitting street level with underground level public commute. Just adding more congestion, delays during a 4yr contruction that has NoT completed.

LRT = Metrolinx Eglinton East & West.

Now Toronto does have areas or buroughs that are a lot newer were their infrastructure is better suited for growth in population: Scarborough, Ajax, Oshawa, Mississauga and Brampton especially well designed. The latter two don’t have many tall buildings or condos - Mississauga has drastically changed in this area since when I lived there in 2004-2006. However the design still allows for longer street lights, better placed emergency services for greater coverage with some overlap, and probably THE best water filtration and treatment in the entire TheSix (6 burroughs make up the GTA greater Toronto area).

Older Towns or cities expanded to handle increased population does have it’s advantages.
More land and if better planned to handle a future increase of 3x in 10 yrs stretching that out you’d have a much better planned infrastructure (roads, traffic lights, emergency & public services and their coverage, Schools, housing, water treatment, etc).

Public transit have better more efficient designed buses (electric or natural gas), better capacity - I loathe people that use those gargantuan wheel sized strollers! They don’t carry more than the older traditional strollers from 21yrs ago and if you’re not using it for running I or jogging with your child don’t bother. Having 5yr olds in strollers - screams of laziness breeding laziness. Building subways is not a good idea - as it will limit or disrupt water mains, sewage mains, fibre optic, cable networks, and some electrical (not all are above ground on poles).

When a city is better planned for stages of growth and done right - in NO WAY does increased population reduce quality of life. nothing you’ve explained hard wires that, you’re just focusing on the here and now. It doesn’t prove reduced quality of life.

yesterday just yesterday South Barrie, ON had a tornado … I’ve never seen nor heard of this! 50 families homes had roofs lifted right off brand new <10yr homes. It was not a strong tornado that many have seen in the USA not even close, but it was a surprise for us living in Toronto. Barrie has VERY VERY minimal buildings above 5-10 floors and they don‘t cover a very large area/block. I’m curious if such a tornado would’ve even landed in Toronto due to our very high number of skyscrapers (condos and office buildings).

 

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