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incoherent_1

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2016
1,160
2,221
Not everyone does. But many people are not educated. Like the top post here - 'it'll lead to higher prices!'. of course if employees aren't making a decent living and that's the COST in real terms of cheap crap, that's. system that will fail anyway. How about the company makes a billion less in profits and cares more about employees than shareholders? Oh-oh..that will scare the folks who actually think a 'free market' exists outside of regulation. NO company provides of employees anymore than they are forced to. It is that simple.
My mother had a working class job for 20 years when I was growing up. She was required to pay union dues -- they were automatically deducted from her paycheck. She didn't make a lot, but she had no choice.

Her union did nothing. Literally, every time she contacted her union rep she got crickets in response, and the union never once stood up to a policy the employer was implementing. We slowly learned that the union leadership just treated their members as a cash machine to pay themselves high "leadership fees" while sitting back and doing nothing.

Yes, historically, unions have been great. Yes, they've done wonderful things. Yes, there are some still today that do great things and protect workers.

But if you think anti-union sentiment is due only to people "not being educated," then you're the one who needs to educate themself. In some cases, unions have become as corrupt and greedy as the people they claim to stand up to.
 

TVreporter

macrumors 68000
Mar 11, 2012
1,886
3,058
Near Toronto
I have a union leader whose regular line to us when we have grievances is “be thankful we have jobs.”

Leadership is key for a union to be successful- not simply caving to everything. I do wonder where my fees go - a bonus gift card at Christmas doesn’t quite cut it.

That Apple store union has a long road ahead - there is strength in numbers but Apple will do its best to curb the growth.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,117
8,060
There’s not an ocean of difference between $27k/year and $94k/year? Sure buddy.
There’s not an ocean of difference between where they want to be the (living wage) and $45 an hour in some parts of the country. Or are you saying that retail employees don’t deserve $45 an hour?
Agreed, retail employees should take advantage of those benefits.
Yes, retail union benefits. Not SPEEA benefits, not machinists benefits, retail benefits. Which, you will find, are quite far apart.
Retail and food service positions are typically filled by the same kind of people.
Foodservice is far more 1 to 1 than retail, especially for restaurants. I think folks don’t want to talk about retail because it’s harder to make a case for “just retail” unions, so they pull on ALL other unions except for retail.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,117
8,060
Tread carefully, Apple management. The NLRB is (hopefully) watching. Don’t want to get slapped like starbucks just did. Could it be that the folks actually working these jobs are finally seeing the advantages of collective bargaining?
Some of those Starbucks stores are closing due to “safety issues”, so I’d guess they’re not quite seeing those advantages quite yet.
 

profcutter

macrumors 65816
Mar 28, 2019
1,460
1,170
Some of those Starbucks stores are closing due to “safety issues”, so I’d guess they’re not quite seeing those advantages quite yet.
Yep I saw that. Typical old school union busting tactics. But seems like so far the NLRB is frowning on this heavy handed behavior. And the 9 who just got their jobs back.
 

ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
658
1,051
Ok.

And when you go in to get your iPhone looked at, feel free to wait in a very long line while the single person allowed to look at it is on lunch break. Yes, 5 other employees COULD help you, but union laws dictate that is NOT THEIR JOB.

Also hope that person is good and not just there a long time and got promoted for seniority and not actual job performance.
Wauv… you must have some weird unions in the US. We don’t see anything like that in my country - at least not caused by unions. More likely caused by poor management if it happens.
 
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ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
658
1,051
Good for you. Sucks you give up half your paycheck though…US gov taking a third is ****** enough.
And yet it’s very uncommon that people has to take two jobs to make a decent living. Many people can even make a decent living on a part time job where I live.

Gonna let you in on a big secret. Don’t tell anyone else: That half of my paycheck the government takes is actually returned to us in some form or shape. They don’t just put into a big hole. Free hospitals and education for instance…
 

steve09090

macrumors 68020
Aug 12, 2008
2,166
4,150
What are you going to do Apple? Can you keep your leftist virtue signaling while practicing rightist capitalism?
This has nothing to do with Left v Right. Unless you're saying the Lefties can't practice capitalism and Rights have no virtue?
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,636
Indonesia
This has nothing to do with Left v Right. Unless you're saying the Lefties can't practice capitalism and Rights have no virtue?
Workers union is a left leaning concept. Power to the workers? Check out the history of Russian communism for the extreme example.

With Apple’s left leaning virtue signaling, they should be embracing unions. But clearly profit and capitalism take precedent. Just a note when Apple do their next virtue signaling.
 
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ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
658
1,051
This has nothing to do with Left v Right. Unless you're saying the Lefties can't practice capitalism and Rights have no virtue?
I think you’ll find that there is more than one dimension here. But generally yes: Lefties are normally not pro capitalism. And right wing are more like: as long as I get whatever I need I care less about the rest. I dont know where that’s on the “virtue” scale. But that’s very general

Edit: And virtue is just such a poor word. I’m pretty sure Taliban war lords consider them self to have plenty of virtue. And so do lefties, antifa, BLM and Trump supporters.
 
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BBCWatcher

macrumors regular
Jan 28, 2008
139
153
Maine
1) All one needs to do is web search on union corruption to see the 'why'.
Please let's stick to FACTS, OK?

Unions are groups of humans, and sometimes a few humans act corruptly. Store and corporate managers are also fully capable of acting corruptly, and sometimes they do. There's an important difference, though: if a union leader acts corruptly then the members themselves (without any permission from their employer) can remove her/him and choose their new leader. If your manager (or some other manager in the chain) acts corruptly you don't have that right. You're also free to use your favorite search engine to look for "corrupt manager" and see what you get. Have fun.
2) No one should be forced to join a union and pay dues to be employed. Right to work FTW! If you like the idea of unions, pay your dues, if you don't, don't.
You aren't ever forced to join a union in the United States. That's been illegal since 1947 as many posters upthread have pointed out. You can join or leave the union whenever you wish. In many states you may be required to pay partial dues for the common, legitimate employment-related services that the union provides (on a pro-rata actual cost basis). Your total net compensation will still be materially higher than otherwise (almost certainly). And of course slavery isn't legal, so you can always choose whether to work for a particular employer or not.
3) Unions also tend to support only one political party leaving some percentage of members paying to support a party they don't want to support.
Unions may engage in certain permitted political activities, but they don't support only one political party. (Maybe/probably unfortunately.) You're never required to pay for a union's political activities (if there are any). That's illegal, too. So far there's only one Apple Store in the U.S. with a new union, and it has not spent even one penny on external political activities to my knowledge.

Apple (the corporation) engages in many political activities and spends millions of dollars each year in that way. As a rank and file Apple employee you have no influence over Apple's political spending. Apple may (and probably does) support many politicians and political causes that you disagree with. If many more Apple employees unionize then employees may have some actual input into Apple's political spending decisions.
4) Seniority based system for preferred shifts and overtime. How about a skill/performance based system?
Union and non-union employers offer seniority-based systems, and union and non-union employers offer performance-based systems. The only difference is that with a union the members have much more say in which system (or hybrid system) there ought to be. If you want more power (note: not anywhere near infinite power) to choose the type of system then you want a union.
5) Look at any major democrat run city and see how the city is overburdened by retirement benefits awarded to unions instead of salary increases. Kicking the can down the road at its finest. Then when the cities increase taxes to pay for these Cadillac retirement programs the people of that city freak out and leave.... in droves.
I have literally no idea what this observation (if it's even partially correct) has to do with whether Apple Store employees choose to unionize or not. Apple Stores are not municipal governments with taxation powers. Although some people talk about the "Apple Tax." (Joke.)
6) General thuggery when construction contracts are won by non-union companies. Web search 'scabby the union rat' and how those construction sites suffer 'unfortunate acts of vandalism'.
Same as #5. This is a non sequitur.

Do you honestly think unionized Apple Store employees are going to (I don't know...) throw staplers at Staples store windows? Of course they won't, but if anyone ever did that you should just do something else, like stay at home and watch a football game. And/or contact the police to report a crime if you see one.

Vandalism is a crime and ought to be prosecuted. And it's easier than ever to catch vandals at construction and other sites thanks to inexpensive closed circuit television recording and...iPhone cameras. This isn't the 1950s any more, and even that was overblown.
7) No ability to negotiate for yourself, you get what the union has negotiated.
Again, not true. There will be nothing stopping you from starting as a union represented Apple Store employee and becoming Tim Cook's successor if that's where your talents and efforts take you. The only material difference is you'll almost always have better total compensation (and working conditions) with union representation, so you'll be in better condition once you do take over for Tim Cook.
8) Protection of problematic employees. I have personally seen union employees protected even though they were caught stealing, sleeping, masturbating and sexually harassing other employees. In one instance, the sexual harassment one, the employee was fired but filed a grievance and won, was brought back after a year, seniority intact, back pay, etc. No consequences at all even though 10 people all saw and heard the harassment.
And I've seen non-union employees protected despite their horrible behaviors. (See #1.) The difference with union representation is that you have the option (not obligation) to ask the union to defend you when there's a dispute, and the union may or may not represent you. (That Internet search engine you like? Look for "my union won't represent me.") Another difference: many unions help to remove bad employees. (Yes, seriously.) No union, no such efforts. If for example there's a jerk sexually harassing women and 58% of the union membership is women then that jerk isn't going to last very long. The union is most probably going to represent the jerk's victims and help them convince the employer to fire the jerk. (This is particularly true if the jerk happens to be the owner's nephew, as an example.)

You're basically arguing that criminal defendants without defense lawyers, including innocent criminal defendants, are more likely to end up in prison. Yes, that's undoubtedly true. That doesn't mean criminal defendants shouldn't have competent legal representation. They should! The union members decide what sort of representation there ought to be (if any) in disputes.

You're perfectly free not to seek any help from the union if/when there's a dispute with your employer. Indeed, you may not even be a member of the union. (That's your choice, too, as noted above.)

Union membership in the United States is near an all-time low, but it might be starting to increase. I don't see any problem with union expansion in the United States and a lot to like. There's absolutely no danger that you'll be prevented from finding lots of jobs without union representation if that's your preference. Heck, right now there's only one Apple Store in the United States where you can work with union representation. Only one! So there's a real danger that you won't be able to find a unionized job. For a while at least it'd be better to see some union expansion to provide more and better choices to workers. Let them compete fairly and see what happens. If unions are as terrible as you think they are then that'll be self-correcting in the huge U.S. labor market.
 

laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,600
4,005
Earth
One of the things you will persistantly hear during your working life is the the line 'if you don't like it, leave'. The thing is many people do like their job just that there are some things they would like improved and it's not always about wages because a lot of the time it's about safe working conditions, pensions, holiday entitlements and working hours. There are employment laws, health and safety laws and other employment related laws that employers should adhere to but many do not and thus ride rough shot over their employees and the only recourse the employee has is to leave because they do not have the resources to go after the employer whereas a union does.

Unions are not perfect by any means, they do have there own problems and do create many unnecessary problems but for the most part they have done a lot of good for employees, especially for women.

A good example of unions in action is what is happening in the UK right now with regards to the Unite union. It would appear the union is trying to change the way company CEO's and directors think because they are going after companies who have made huge profits during the past 2 years (2 years where life has been very difficult for all, mainly the pandemic and now the issue with Ukraine which is putting a strain on nealry everyones lives) but yet these companies who have made huge profits during the 2 years of struggle have given it all to their shareholders and CEO's/directors in forms of increased wages, bonsuses and increases in their pensions whilst nothing is being given back to the employees. If there was no union for these employee's they would all have suck it up and live with it or 'if you don't like it, leave'. All the union is doing is saying that some of the profits should be going towards the employees to help them with the cost of living crisis that is hitting them and everyone else in the UK. company employees are struggling at the moment so is it not right that the employer should do what they can to help out rather than say 'sorry, your not allowed to see any of the profits you help make for the company'.

Take the recent court case with Apple regarding employee security bag checks. Employees persistantly complained to Apple about the practice but Apple did nothing so employees were forced to take Apple to court to exercise their legal rights. This is why people need unions, Instead of Apple doing the right thing by their employees, Apple couldn't give a toss about their employees legal employment rights which forced the employees to take Apple to court. It should not have to be this way because Apple should have been doing the right thing in the first place but they weren't. A union would force a company to do the right thing and they know it.

In my opinion, any company that complains about a union is a company who does not want to follow the rules and thus treat their employees badly.
 
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steve09090

macrumors 68020
Aug 12, 2008
2,166
4,150
Workers union is a left leaning concept. Power to the workers? Check out the history of Russian communism for the extreme example.

With Apple’s left leaning virtue signaling, they should be embracing unions. But clearly profit and capitalism take precedent. Just a note when Apple do their next virtue signaling.
Unionism has zero to do with Left Wing. It’s about a collective speaking for the masses. And with regard to Russia, I’m pretty sure you're talking about Socialism, which of course is no longer socialist or communist.

Notwithstanding, what do you even think "left leaning virtues" exactly is? I’ll wait….
 

ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
658
1,051
Unionism has zero to do with Left Wing. It’s about a collective speaking for the masses. And with regard to Russia, I’m pretty sure you're talking about Socialism, which of course is no longer socialist or communist.

Notwithstanding, what do you even think "left leaning virtues" exactly is? I’ll wait….

Edit: In addition - at least where I live unions will typically support/donate to political parties on the left wing whereas big companies/employers will donate to political parties on the right wing.

As mentioned earlier it’s not one dimensional anymore. It’s more like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart and this

Which explains why a guy like Donald Trump could get so much support from the classic working class.
 
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macdisciple

macrumors 6502
Feb 27, 2016
269
401
USA
Why does the US have such an aversion to unions?
The decline of the American automotive industry beginning in the 1970s raises a red flag for me. Plus too many anecdotal stories about infighting between unions on job sites.
 

ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
658
1,051
The decline of the American automotive industry beginning in the 1970s raises a red flag for me. Plus too many anecdotal stories about infighting between unions on job sites.
That could also have been caused by poor management not seeing what the car industry in Japan was working on. But I guess it’s easier to blame it on unions.

 
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vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,359
9,710
Columbus, OH
There’s not an ocean of difference between where they want to be the (living wage) and $45 an hour in some parts of the country. Or are you saying that retail employees don’t deserve $45 an hour?
Even in the most expensive areas of the country, $25-30/hr would get these workers to a living wage. Of course the question is also, why the misdirection of looking at the extreme outliers? For the vast majority of the country, a wage quite south of those figures would get them a living wage. But I guess folks in Iowa, Alabama, and Ohio shouldn’t bother because employees in NYC and San Francisco need a higher wage than them to make a living wage. :rolleyes:

Foodservice is far more 1 to 1 than retail, especially for restaurants. I think folks don’t want to talk about retail because it’s harder to make a case for “just retail” unions, so they pull on ALL other unions except for retail.
I didn’t say anything about fast food or other unions on this point. I simply noted that retail employees are not as easily replaceable as you claim.

“For example, durable goods manufacturing, wholesale and retail trade, and education and health services have a labor shortage—these industries have more unfilled job openings than unemployed workers with experience in their respective industry.”

 

Unami

macrumors 65816
Jul 27, 2010
1,359
1,564
Austria
Sounds like these efforts will make a lot of employees suspicious and drive them towards unions. Way to go Apple! Good counterpoint against google's old "Don't be evil"-motto.
 
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