Apple Retail Employee Concerns

[el gringo]

if true - this really sucks!

i think this corporate bull****...not considering the employees being a valuable asset - is real crap. the place where i work is almost the same...and the people working here under performs...mostly due to the exec's gives a **** about'em...

 

[corey]

Originally posted by laserbeahm
Whether the employees were getting paid $500 or $1,000, that is a crummy bonus for making $500,000 in sales. .1% really isn't good at all. As other people have said, I'm sure that kind of thing is going on a lot of other places.

if people signed a contract that promised nothing more than this, they agreed to have "crummy" bonuses. i am guessing apple is an at will employer - if the sales person is really that good, they an probably get a higher paying job somewwhere esle if they really want to.

 

[Applespider]

I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
From the appleinsider report:If the bonus should be proportional to the employee's sales, as this seems to imply, how, in principle, is that NOT working on commission?

Not really. Commissions are generally paid on all sales an individual or group makes during every reporting period.

A bonus is generally offered on performance or longevity. And may not be offered during all reporting periods.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Applespider
I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Having worked retail, I can say that sales is all about trying to close the sale. Commission really ratchets up the need to close. Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.

Bonuses also help in keeping a workforce motivated. Otherwise you end up with drones like those at the QwikiMart.

 

[Applespider]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.

When I'm making any major purchase (in the UK), I shop at John Lewis. They don't work on commission or individual bonus. They have performance related pay so those who work hardest (generally a combination of sales/support/advice) get paid more. The company as a whole have a bonus which is paid based on their results as a % of their salary (so again performance is rewarded)

And no, I don't pay more for my goods or services. I got an extra year's guarantee thrown in on my Powerbook, 5 years on my TV and they have a promise of 'never knowingly undersold' so if I did find it cheaper, they refund it.

 

[mrsebastian]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
But would you be willing to pay more for your goods and services? The $8 to $12 paid by Apple for retail employees is not even a livable wage for most areas that Apple has put their stores.

Having worked retail, I can say that sales is all about trying to close the sale. Commission really ratchets up the need to close. Bonuses do give a reason to at least try to close or to add on. Yet since the base salary remains the same, there is not a live or die attitude for the close.

Bonuses also help in keeping a workforce motivated. Otherwise you end up with drones like those at the QwikiMart.

i think we already pay enough for our apple goods and services. that said i agree completely that apple retail is obviously not a good place to work. my feeling is apple preys (for lack of a better term) on apple fanatics, who just love apple and are happy to just be a part of it. actually that reminds me of another company called disney, who's certainly not known for their employee friendliness.

guess the bottom line is, if the employees have a case about the bonus issues, then file a class action lawsuit and get what you deserve.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by mrsebastian
i think we already pay enough for our apple goods and services. that said i agree completely that apple retail is obviously not a good place to work. my feeling is apple preys (for lack of a better term) on apple fanatics, who just love apple and are happy to just be a part of it. actually that reminds me of another company called disney, who's certainly not known for their employee friendliness.

guess the bottom line is, if the employees have a case about the bonus issues, then file a class action lawsuit and get what you deserve.

My comments were more about commission shops and peoples feelings that they would prefer not to feel that pressure when shopping.

You know what I find funny is that people will get up in arms over what workers are paid by Walmart and others in China; but they don't think for a moment about the lack of living wages for the people who serve them in the USA.

Apple is not the only offender of not paying their employees what they are truly worth. Many retail jobs are like that. With a $12 hour wage, that means a full-time worker gets about $25,000 a year. That is before taxes and health insurance. Try living on that as a single person in the DC area. And then we see why we complain that we don't get the right help when we go shopping at various stores.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by Stella
From what I've heard, Apple is an awful employer, with this example and others:

There is also the case where Apple state in employees contracts that any software they write *IN THEIR OWN TIME* belongs to Apple...

There have been a few recent examples of Apple employees having to finish developing their shareware apps because of this.

Apple absolutely suck as an employer, some one should stand up to Apple and get them sorted out.

Unless the policy has changed from ON YOUR OWN TIME to this I call BS on this heresay.

Apple is not an awful employer. They weren't as good as NeXT but unless you've worked at both you can't understand my measurements.

Apple SQA was not thrilled with NeXT SQA who demanded much more skill levels, on all fronts, in order to be in SQA.

Whether that resulted in the newbie learning Cocoa or not --something an overwhelming majority in NeXT SQA learned in order to move up--is unknown.

Apple is no different with regards to Middle Management Mental Midgets than any other company. When a company scales beyond the level that everyone knows everyone on a first name basis you better get used to the fact that lower quality personnel do slip in and usually it is at Middle Management.

Another angle is that with such individuals the Upper Management can use Middle Management as a punching bag to determine if and where it is necessary to improve personnel.

Most Middle Management get too power envious and try to block more skilled talent from moving up by becoming gateways of information exchange between their superiors and their inferiors, as viewed on the hierarchy depth chart.

The result is tech turnover.

If this didn't happen and everyone was living in la-la land we wouldn't see so many new startups and innovation would come from a select group of pre-existing companies.

Expect change often and innovation thrives.

Introduce yourself to executives and upper management around the coffee bars and watch how you become the envy of your immediate Manager who is a yes person too afraid to do what you just did.

Very few companies operate on a complete two-way open communication. NeXT did and it worked about half the time. Apple still isn't where it wants to be from what it planned back in 1997.

Most highly skilled engineers do not want to become managers but act as if they understand people better than most managers. One of the reasons Steve Jobs is so successful is he knows his own talents and limitations.

Most people have place a much higher value on their talents than Reality shows.

If they didn't you wouldn't see so many people seeking counselors to let out their fears of inadequacies.

Grow up folks you're in freaking Retail. Whether you sell Cosmetics or Computers it is still Retail.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Grow up folks you're in freaking Retail. Whether you sell Cosmetics or Computers it is still Retail. [/B]

You make Retail sound like we that serve the public do not deserve respect (both from customers and employers), what is promised by our employers, and decent wages.

Having worked in shops that low-ball wages, and those that feel living wages are important; you get what you pay for. I am not sure about yourself, but I generally can tell when i shop at a place that is fairly compensating their employees.

 

[tibor]

Originally posted by arn
I don't claim to know the law... so I can't really comment.... but I'm just pointing out it's not unique to Apple.

arn

/. just had a piece on this. Note that some employer contracts are actually MORE restrictive. My favorite was the Canadian company that claimed rights to anything you did in your spare time, even if it wasn't related.

See:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/06/2329209

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by tibor
/. just had a piece on this. Note that some employer contracts are actually MORE restrictive. My favorite was the Canadian company that claimed rights to anything you did in your spare time, even if it wasn't related.

See:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/06/2329209

In the US the courts have been mixed. In my case (never to court) MicroCenter tried to limit you r employment within the same county and and adjoining counties at the time . Courts in other cases found that to a restriction of trade and employment.

 

[rdowns]

Originally posted by Applespider
I'd much rather have a salesperson not working on commission helping me. Otherwise how do I know that he's not trying to sell me something I don't need, just to help out his bonus? (in the UK, many electrical salesstaff get a bonus for the number of extended warranties they can sell)

Non-commissioned salespeople get you unknowledgable folks like you find at Best Buy and Circuit City. Good non-commissioned salespeople end up leaving to make a livable wage elsewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

 

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by rdowns
As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

Ideally, I'd say that money should in no way be a motivating factor, either for sales people, or, and especially not, for elected officials. The best sales people that I've ever dealt with don't try to sell. They try to help, to educate, etc. Then, once I'm smart enough to know what I want, I can buy whatever that is.

Now, if I what I wanted/needed was a $10 adaptor to make my old whatsit work, but I was trying to decide between that and a $250 new top-of-the-line whatsit, if a sales person is working on commision, which will he try to talk me into? Probably the more expensive thing that I don't need. That's not the kind of sales person that I want to have...

Also, saying an elected official should work on commision is about the same as saying that they should make policy decisions based on poll results. No. History is the best judge of when an official has done a good job. Frequently the best officials are poorly regarded when they are in office...

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by rdowns
Non-commissioned salespeople get you unknowledgable folks like you find at Best Buy and Circuit City. Good non-commissioned salespeople end up leaving to make a livable wage elsewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole world should work on commission, especially our elected officials. Do a good job, make more. Be a slacker, make less and lose your job.

I will speak only from the DC area. How many people under 35 do you see working the floors of Best Buy? This was brought up by a friend that is 55 years old. His local best Buy was looking for sales staff during the Holidays.

He has Photo, Video, and Audio experience. He did an early retirement. He was looking only for seasonal employment (just what Best Buy was looking for). He knows computers so the cash register would not have been a problem. He was a White House Photographer/Videographer up till the last 1 1/2 years. Sure he could have aided in WMD, or helping Bin Laden. Yet how serious can we take that from someone just a year and half ago passed White House security?

Retail workers are looked down upon by many. Having worked in the Northern Virginia area for a number of years, i will say that we are looked upon as servants by [/b]SOME.

Just because they could not manage their time better we are asked to allow them to the head of the line. Just becuase they bought something that was $500 in the last 12months, they should be considered ABOVE those that have spent $10,000 in the last 12 months.

Despite these few, there are exceptions. The person that patiently waited thru 3 warranty repairs for the same thing. the person that came in thinking that they needed to spend 4 time's what they did to get the results they wanted, and them bringing in their friends or relatives. Or even more the couple that comes in to share that their purchase (one of your smallest), met all their expectations and they just simply wanted to share with you the joy of their moment.

These are just some of the reason I choose to work retail. I know that I will never get rich. But as long as the company i work for allows me a living wage and job satisfaction, I will stay with them. there are more important things than money. Don't get me wrong, i will not work for free. Yet they pay and reward me well for what i provide to the family owned business.

(For full disclosure: I no longer work on the Retail floor in a full-time capacity. I work in their advertising and marketing department. I now primarily provide them with the printed and radio ads. They do ask me to work the retail floor when possible to better understand the needs of our customers. Some of what i have stated is from 20+ years in t\he Retail environment).

It is my personal observation that many that interact with Retail employees never have worked in the service industry. Otherwise they would understand when we say that the {i]printed{/i] policy does not allow for that. To rant and rave at a restaurant server or retail worker does not do anything. We are required[/in] in most instances to state corporate policy. whether we agree e with it or not. Politely ask for a store/restaurant manager will go a long way in getting you policy point across.

Not every business is not to screw you. there are many that support the idea that the positive word is much more important then any advertising that the company will do. Studies have shown that a negative reaction will result in a 10 fold increase of negative impact.

On the flip side there is only a 2x or 3x increase from positive comment. Lucky for me my company realizes the benefit of the positive verse the negative. Maybe that is why many of us earn a living wage.

I say all of this since some of you out there consider us lower than slime.

My point being is that if you raise the wages you will see an increase in the level of customer service. In some cases it may require an increase in what you pay.

You pay cheap, you get cheap is my opinion.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Ideally, I'd say that money should in no way be a motivating factor, either for sales people, or, and especially not, for elected officials. The best sales people that I've ever dealt with don't try to sell. They try to help, to educate, etc. Then, once I'm smart enough to know what I want, I can buy whatever that is.

Now, if I what I wanted/needed was a $10 adaptor to make my old whatsit work, but I was trying to decide between that and a $250 new top-of-the-line whatsit, if a sales person is working on commision, which will he try to talk me into? Probably the more expensive thing that I don't need. That's not the kind of sales person that I want to have...

Also, saying an elected official should work on commision is about the same as saying that they should make policy decisions based on poll results. No. History is the best judge of when an official has done a good job. Frequently the best officials are poorly regarded when they are in office...

In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

 

[26139]

Bonus..

If you don't like the wage, don't work for apple. Last time I checked, a bonus was unpromised, unearned (kinda) reward that is given without any guarantee. To me, it constitutes free money, why should I expect anything more than the hourly wage and computer discount I was promised when I was hired?

 

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

That was my point. The sales people weren't on commision.

At the opposite extreme, I once faced the classic used car salesman. He tried everyway to Sunday to get me to buy the car. He kept coming down on the price. He told me he could make me a special deal. But I insisted that I would only buy a car once I had walked away and thought about it. When I left, he called after me in a mildly threatening tone "the deal is only good to the end of the day! After that, forget it!"

Now that's high pressure sales. I can't stand it.

(It really was a pretty good deal on the car. Perhaps I should have taken it, but I couldn't stomach the idea of buying from that guy after that...)

 

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac

I say all of this since some of you out there consider us lower than slime.

For what it's worth, I don't know anyone who considers sales people slime...

My point being is that if you raise the wages you will see an increase in the level of customer service. In some cases it may require an increase in what you pay.

You pay cheap, you get cheap is my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. The best sales people are the ones who are there because they love and believe in the product, not the sale. Give them enough money to live on and they'll bend over backward for you...

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Re: Bonus..

Originally posted by appleretailguy
If you don't like the wage, don't work for apple. Last time I checked, a bonus was unpromised, unearned (kinda) reward that is given without any guarantee. To me, it constitutes free money, why should I expect anything more than the hourly wage and computer discount I was promised when I was hired?

In some courts the verbal promise of a bonus is enough. In some other courts a posting on the bulletin board is enough.

I am not sure about the discounts. Unless someone tells me otherwise I can't see the discounts being any lower then the Government or EDU discounts.

I can only assume from your comments that you have never worked long-term in the service industry. This goes beyond Apple. They are only the tip of the iceberg.

Though I have no hard facts to back this up at this time, I would venture to guess only less than 20% of the Retail workers earn what would be a "living wage" (a wage that would allow a single individual to live on their own with out support of others).

There is a difference in living with others to support a lifestyle, and living with others just to live.

If an employer states that performing to sustain goals would give a bonus - then that employer should give that bonus period. Maybe no different in your company, if you were able to curtain overtime cost by 25% to be promised a $100 bonus.

From what i got from your post since they are retail workers, they should accept what they get. I would be just as upset if you worked for Apple SW Development, or EDU markets.

What ticks me of is how many view Retail workers are viewed.

In the DC area (again), some retail workers are viewed just above "slaves' in my mind. Just in my few short months here I have yet to see a post about the Apple Retail Store that was positive (other than they are opening a store in your area). To be honest maybe I missed the kudos to a particular store, or an employee that went that extra mile.

Everyone wants service but is not willing to pay for it. I look at some forums that complain that Dell has moved their tech support off-shore. These same people will complain that Dell stock went down by 1/2 point be cause they couldn't contain their costs. Same way they want to order from the internet. Same way people want to order from the internet and not pay any taxes. These same people will complain that the police weren't there to prevent the break-in to their home or car. Or that the trash has not been collected when it was supposed to, or that the pot-hole was not fixed and they had a $200 repair job?

WAKE UP PEOPLE! THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY DOLLARS TO GO AROUND!

 

[numediaman]

You pay cheap, you get cheap in my opinion.

I agree, as well.

Americans are so hooked on paying cheaper and cheaper. Don't we realize that is driving jobs out of the country, and eliminating real consumer choice?

I would rather pay a few bucks more for better service, and better quality. The price is only one of the issues I consider. Otherwise, why would I buy from Apple? -- they're never the cheapest, and that's OK.

(But I will add, the fact that Apple is never the cheapest is one of the reasons it bothers me that quality control seems to be declining for both Apple hardware and software.)

EDIT: By the way, Chip NoVaMac, nice post.

 

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
In reference to salespeople. They probably were not on commission. And since you knew what you wanted you were better off. But you can't say that you were never pressured, or bought from pressure something that you didn't want. If you haven't you are better then most of the population.

I had thought that employees at Apple received a commission. So I made sure that I used the same person. He told me that he appreciated the thought. Wish that we did receive a commission. He said, None of our employees get a commission."

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
That was my point. The sales people weren't on commision.

At the opposite extreme, I once faced the classic used car salesman. He tried everyway to Sunday to get me to buy the car. He kept coming down on the price. He told me he could make me a special deal. But I insisted that I would only buy a car once I had walked away and thought about it. When I left, he called after me in a mildly threatening tone "the deal is only good to the end of the day! After that, forget it!"

Now that's high pressure sales. I can't stand it.

(It really was a pretty good deal on the car. Perhaps I should have taken it, but I couldn't stomach the idea of buying from that guy after that...)

Fortunately some car dealerships have realized that that. My other half a week ago went to a Buick dealership to look at at a car. He told the rep that he was there only to look. the rep respected that. He came back a couple days later armed with the Edmund's dealer pricing. He accepted that the dealer "invoice' did not reflect the dealers final cost. His rep also accepted that he did his homework and took the deal from "dealer invoice". Could he have gotten better, maybe ; but at what cost. He was treated with respect and he got a deal that he could live with, and so did the dealer.

It gets down to the Retailer i work for, "treat everyone fairly".

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by numediaman


EDIT: By the way, Chip NoVaMac, nice post.

Well thanks, but having spent most of my 45 years on this earth as a {i]Retail[/i] employee, I have seen a lot. Particularly in the Northern Virginia area.

I have always felt that everyone should work in a Retail position for two years. maybe then the class system that is developing in this nation will end. Believe it or not we are becoming a nation of the "haves' and Have-nots". And not to try to inject politics into this, the Administrations efforts to redefine overtime and it's efforts to redefine immigration are setting the workforce back to the before the industrial revolution.

Sorry for the political rant. But the Administration is stating 2million+ jobs by the end of the year. But what sort of jobs are these? Are they the basis of the immigration changes that the Administration proposes?

I look at a number of sites that complain constantly[/i[] about being shuttled to overseas support sites. Where English is far "far distant" language.
Keep in mind my comments are not some Xenophobic rant. I my mind there are many people given the chance would like to improve their lot with the proper training. and proper wages.

Would you buy a MB from someone that got only $12 an hour and a "promise" of a $1,000 bonus? Would you buy a house from someone that would get only $500 AFTER spending 10 hours showing you houses ands getting the contract that you wanted?

Looking to the Valentines Holiday, who would you trust, someone that is able to live close to your standard of living o someone that made half of what you earned.

In the US everyone wants something for nothing. No matter who pays for it in the end.

We want the service and support at no additional cost. I have learned through the years those come at a cost. And even given my limited budget i am willing to pay for that.

Sorry for the rant, but even with your positive comments, it struck a nerve.

 

[clonenode]

Apple retail employees DO NOT work on commission. It fosters an atmosphere of cooperation (not competiton) between the sales people. They attempt to find the right solution for each customer (honestly), working off of eachothers strenghts when needed to answer customer questions. Apple truley wants peolpe to walk away happy... not feeling "sold" on something they didn't need.

The sales goal bonuses are given to everyone in the store, regardless of individual performance.