Apple Store in Oklahoma City Becomes Second in U.S. to Unionize

[Sf844]

If a median home cost is roughly $400k should a McDonalds worker be paid to afford such a mortgage, (~$2100/month), After payroll taxes are taken out that McDonalds worker would need to make at least $30 an hour. Is that sustainable for the franchise owner?

Nobody’s problem but his.

There are human rights, but there is no “have a profitable McDonald’s” right

 

[bruinsrme]

When you (and I) were kids many of these jobs were seasonal and transitional. It was not uncommon for people from many different economic backgrounds to have "summer jobs" at fast-food or similar places. A high school kid could earn enough money to do useful things like buy a car or pay tuition at a state school. Now these jobs have become stratified and used to trap workers based on economics and education. There has become a stigma that paying a fast-food worker a living wage is somehow giving them something they don't deserve while white-collar workers sit in their cubicles all day, browsing social media and stuffing their 401Ks with a bare minimum of effort.

Fast food price increases outpaced labor costs (which remained static for years) by a significant factor. They became so egregious that even McDonalds had to reset their menu a few years ago because they were pricing themselves out of the market. This was purely profit maximizing and had very little correlation to rising costs.

One of the biggest triumphs of corporate America was successfully enlisting the public in the battle to defend their profits by pitting them against each other and vehemently insisting that the more physical the labor is the least worthy it is of compensation. We use words like "menial" and "unskilled' to denigrate the very resource that makes possible our society when we really should be saying "undervalued"

Food prices have out paced those salaries in the semiconductor industry.
My wife is in the medical field. Salaries have increased but benefits have decreased and/or employee contributions have increased.
Me, decent raise benefits saw about a 1% increase. But my pay has not kept up with food and cost of living.

Unskilled and menial. Interesting terms. I am sure there are some that see such terms as demeaning, however also somewhat applicable. What skill set is needed for starting off at McDonalds?

It has been interesting that stating "corporate" American is to blame for such terms. Having worked in biotech, pharma and medical devices I can attest that it doesn't just stem from corporate America but also academia.
Perhaps if just starting out in non-corporate America one can't be unskilled.
Then again when trying to punch into corporate America one can surely be under qualified or unqualified not to mention a certain level degree versus experience.

Maybe my perspective of job and career is somewhat skewed and everyone should be paid equal.

 

[bruinsrme]

Nobody’s problem but his.

There are human rights, but there is no “have a profitable McDonald’s” right

His?
What is their time and investment worth? Ever own a business? Knowing a couple of franchise owners they take in between $125 and $180k a year. They also work at least 50 hours in the store and at least another 30 outside of that and that is somewhat conservative.
Human rights? What rights are you referring to?

 

[icanhazmac]

Multiply the price of a budget meal by 90

There are human rights, but there is no “have a profitable McDonald’s” right

If McDs has to pay $30/hr minimum there will be no budget meals, don't you see how this works? It is a snake eating itself.

Higher wages = higher cost of goods = higher wages = higher cost of goods. Pretty basic math.

Entry level retail jobs are not supposed to be household supporting. If that is the only full time job you can get then you might need a part time job too, simple as that.

But, no worries because no one will work at McDs anymore, according to @visualseed high paying jobs are plentiful:

Retail stores that are having problems staffing today are competing in a tight labor market where better paying jobs are plentiful.

LOL!

 

[icanhazmac]

Human rights? What rights are you referring to?

I know right? When the solar flare comes see how fast these "human rights" folks last in a world where you need to work, fight, claw and scratch every single day for your very existence. There are no human rights other than the ones society chooses to support, when society crumbles......

 

[Sf844]

His?
What is their time and investment worth? Ever own a business? Knowing a couple of franchise owners they take in between $125 and $180k a year. They also work at least 50 hours in the store and at least another 30 outside of that and that is somewhat conservative.
Human rights? What rights are you referring to?

Actually several businesses, none of which would exist if I couldn’t afford to pay reasonable wages

I’m no slaver and any entrepreneur saying that his business needs to have homeless people (basically semi slavery and denying the right to live anything even remotely similar to a regular life) as employees is deplorable and, in my opinion, should be ashamed of himself

If they work 80 hours it’s their business, their employees aren’t LLC members/shareholders or whatever

https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf

 

[Sf844]

If McDs has to pay $30/hr minimum there will be no budget meals, don't you see how this works? It is a snake eating itself.

Higher wages = higher cost of goods = higher wages = higher cost of goods. Pretty basic math.

Entry level retail jobs are not supposed to be household supporting. If that is the only full time job you can get then you might need a part time job too, simple as that.

But, no worries because no one will work at McDs anymore, according to @visualseed high paying jobs are plentiful:



LOL!

It’s not, you simply would have less people eating cr4p and more people bringing food from home. If McDonald’s can’t pay a reasonable salary in a city it has no business in the said city.

Look, it’s factual: there are plenty of countries that despite having a lower GDP per capita than the US aren’t rife with tent towns, people living in vans, and mental illnesses. It’s not fantasy land, you just refuse to acknowledge there is an obvious problem afoot because it doesn’t affect you directly.

I would go as far as to say there is actually no other wealthy country where you can find those problems at that scale. It speak volumes too that the US is home to the largest corporations and wealthiest individuals on Earth. Join the dots.

 

[icanhazmac]

It’s not, you simply would have less people eating cr4p and more people bringing food from home.

While I would be all for a shift to more home cooking, something I have been doing much more of since Covid, where pray will folks get the money to shop fresh? If every single position (job) along the way from farm to table is 100% household supporting then fresh food from the supermarket will be more expensive.

Ever think that the US is "rife" with tent towns because the US enables them? Again, just about every single retail establishment I enter has a help wanted sign in the window. Perhaps it is not 100% household supporting but it is work and a path forward.

 

[Sf844]

While I would be all for a shift to more home cooking, something I have been doing much more of since Covid, where pray will folks get the money to shop fresh? If every single position (job) along the way from farm to table is 100% household supporting then fresh food from the supermarket will be more expensive.

Ever think that the US is "rife" with tent towns because the US enables them? Again, just about every single retail establishment I enter has a help wanted sign in the window. Perhaps it is not 100% household supporting but it is work and a path forward.

I was born in Europe, in a well-to-do family, and I studied in the US. I have employees in both Europe and the US, and live in both places depending on the season, although currently I spend more time in Europe.

Let me tell you something: every time I visit the US, the SP500 is more valuable, the richest top 10 in the country are wealthier, and I find more homelessness, invariably.

I was in DC some weeks ago and on Penn ave, at 7PM, you could find 10 tents together, just minutes away from the White House. Shame on a country that allows that to happen.

I remember in 2013 you couldn’t find a tent anywhere around there. I also remember Apple was worth 500bn, and the richest guys in the country were worth 80bn or less.

Now you are telling me that the company that went form 500bn to 2 plus trillions can’t afford living wages, that there is nothing to do about it while the richest are worth 200+bn. Seriously, get out of here, you have been taken for a f00l unless you’re a billionaire. There is an obvious and growing structural problem that will end up making the whole country blow up.

 

[bruinsrme]

Actually several businesses, none of which would exist if I couldn’t afford to pay reasonable wages

I’m no slaver and any entrepreneur saying that his business needs to have homeless people (basically semi slavery and denying the right to live anything even remotely similar to a regular life) as employees is deplorable and, in my opinion, should be ashamed of himself

If they work 80 hours it’s their business, their employees aren’t LLC members/shareholders or whatever

https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/udhr_booklet_en_web.pdf

Ever work in an apple store? I have and it was a blast. The environment was clean, safe and expectations reasonable for what they pay. Add the benefits they offer the total compensation is very reasonable. I think the workers unionizing may find out they lost more than they will have gained.

What vested interest does the person working the grill, drive thru or register have in the overall success and profitability of the franchise. They come in and do their job. They don't have to worry about hiring, accounting, ordering, health standards, tax compliance, coordinating service and maintenance, dealing with new town/city/state and federal compliance issues to run the business.

As far as McDonalds I see signs in my area for $17 - $19 more than what democrats are pushing for.

Who is homeless? Are these franchise owner dragging people off the street and forcing them to work they restaurants?

As a business owner yourself, do you value your time less than your highest paid employee?

You know if you can't find help then you need to increase the incentive. I am sure you also know that you need to keep your over head in check so your customers still see value in your products/services.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I think a couple of people in this thread should step outside of the US for a sec, and take a look at some of the solutions other countries have to offer. I think they would be surprised about how massive multibillion dollar corporations can actually afford to pay their workers a wage that enables a proper life, even if they’re deemed ‘unskilled’ [sic] workers.

They might even be disgusted if they look; as these companies can get away with all sorts of abuses in their home country of the USA, but are completely able to treat their workers as human beings worthy of a proper income in virtually all other developed western countries.

Wouldn’t that warrant some questions rather than blythely toeing the party line?

 

[mzeb]

Understood. As far as I know, it appears that they are at the upper bound of where retail jobs are in the area. Comparatively speaking, Apple likely offers comparable or better benefits as well. Could be that this all comes down to “we want a say into how our managers act” in which case, it’s not really about pay or benefits at the core of it.


Yes, but, many people, understanding that they want to live a reasonably comfortable life, aren’t trying to have that life revolve primarily around a retail job. If they can get 60k for a retail job, then good on the union if they’re able to get that out of Apple. And, I’d be happy for them to do so. Heck, if they can get 200k a year for a retail job, THAT would be SWEET for them. It might not be likely, but I wouldn’t bemoan them getting it.


Very likely, these stores have had a history of bad management, the employees have done all they feel they are able to within the system to effect change and formed the union because:
1. They plan to be working at Apple for awhile as the pay and benefits are good and they’re not interested in working anywhere else, and
2. They don’t want to have to deal with bosses that are not focused on their personal well being.

They want to like going to work and doing what they do, and they can’t do that if the manager is making it a bad place to be. “Quit and go work somewhere else” isn’t really an option because they’d have to take a pay/benefits cut to go ANYWHERE else (and who knows, maybe that’s why the management was not listening to the employees. They’re thinking, “You’re already working the best job in the mall, do you know how many folks are asking for applications ALL the time? What more do you want?” And, those managers, I believe are what may cause unions to continue to spread within Apple.

I could be poor managers but that isn’t what the unions said upon organization. “To secure rights we previously didn’t have” was expressed in the AppleCORE open letter to Tim Cook and what IAMAW that helped the Maryland store organize reiterated. That sounds like bargaining power to me. We don’t have a statement from the OK store yet so we’ll have to wait and see.
I agree with you that they feel they don’t have a good option to quit and go elsewhere but that also doesn’t mean they are getting compensated as they should. Just because it is the best doesn’t mean it is good enough.

 

[bruinsrme]

I was born in Europe, in a well-to-do family, and I studied in the US. I have employees in both Europe and the US, and live in both places depending on the season, although currently I spend more time in Europe.

Let me tell you something: every time I visit the US, the SP500 is more valuable, the richest top 10 in the country are wealthier, and I find more homelessness, invariably.

I was in DC some weeks ago and on Penn ave, at 7PM, you could find 10 tents together, just minutes away from the White House. Shame on a country that allows that to happen.

I remember in 2013 you couldn’t find a tent anywhere around there. I also remember Apple was worth 500bn, and the richest guys in the country were worth 80bn or less.

Now you are telling me that the company that went form 500bn to 2 plus trillions can’t afford living wages, that there is nothing to do about it while the richest are worth 200+bn. Seriously, get out of here, you have been taken for a f00l unless you’re a billionaire. There is an obvious and growing structural problem that will end up making the whole country blow up.

You were also just mites away from the decision makers that could very well help those living in tents.

I just went through an interview process with Apple again. They had 4 job openings and well over 200 applicants. Until apple has 4 open positions and 0 applicants they will offer slightly more than area market wages.

I am betting the union leadership will be more self serving through after hour negotiations than what its members will ever know.

 

[icanhazmac]

I was in DC some weeks ago and on Penn ave, at 7PM, you could find 10 tents together, just minutes away from the White House. Shame on a country that allows that to happen.

So this data seems to indicate that the US is at least on par with the EU as an average in terms of homeless per capita so where are the EU's homeless? Do you hide the tents better?

List of sovereign states by homeless population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[visualseed]

If McDs has to pay $30/hr minimum there will be no budget meals, don't you see how this works? It is a snake eating itself.

Higher wages = higher cost of goods = higher wages = higher cost of goods. Pretty basic math.

Why won't there be budget meals? McDonalds gross profit margins have increased from 38% to 56% over the last decade. There is more than enough room in there to increase wages dramatically without a noticeable increase in prices. McDonalds had value menu items when labor was a significantly much higher percentage of their COGS than it is now. Not just pretty basic math. Pretty basic economics.

McDonalds is already planning to accommodate a nationwide base $15 an hour wage by 2024 for their corporate stores with some locations paying more than $20. They expect this to only require a 4-5% increase in overall prices to maintain their margins.

Franchisees are probably not going to be able to hold it at $7.25 much longer after that.

Entry level retail jobs are not supposed to be household supporting. If that is the only full time job you can get then you might need a part time job too, simple as that.

Household supporting? These jobs are not even individual supporting and it's taxpayers that are footing the bill to make up the gap not a second part time job for the worker. Simple as that.

But, no worries because no one will work at McDs anymore, according to @visualseed high paying jobs are plentiful:



LOL!

Not my opinion. Reality. The high job vacancy rates and perpetual "we're hiring" signs in fast-food restaurants and retail stores around the country speak for themselves. Most places around me only have enough staff to keep their drive thrus open.

 

[Sf844]

So this data seems to indicate that the US is at least on par with the EU as an average in terms of homeless per capita so where are the EU's homeless? Do you hide the tents better?

List of sovereign states by homeless population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Homeless people in Europe have the right to the same medical attention as the richest guy in town.

The minimum salary in Germany is around 50% the average salary and even more in France, Spain and so on.

People don’t have to ask for food because the state provides the food if necessary.

Being homeless in Europe is not the same as being homeless in the US.

Are there problems? Yes, unfortunately. Can you feel an increasingly dystopian progression like in the US? Not at all.

I love the US, I really do. That’s the point. I studied there, I have many American friends and so on. And that’s very precisely the reason I feel anger when I see the country progressively destroying itself. Political extremism, personality cults, anger… those don’t come out of nowhere, not in a country awash with money

 

[icanhazmac]

Not my opinion. Reality. The high job vacancy rates and perpetual "we're hiring" signs in fast-food restaurants and retail stores around the country speak for themselves. Most places around me only have enough staff to keep their drive thrus open.

Sounds to me like homeless folks could easily get jobs then, wonder why they haven't? Again, might not be wholly sustaining but it is work and a path forward. Maybe they could afford housing with public assistance for food only until they are back on their feet?

 

[icanhazmac]

Homeless people in Europe have the right to the same medical attention as the richest guy in town.

In the US no one can be denied healthcare at a hospital. I understand that is not preventative care at a primary care physician but you cannot be denied healthcare. Also, aren't Europeans often subjected to lengthy wait times for care? Seems it takes a long time to see a specialist in most of Europe. I don't think I have ever waited more than 2-3 weeks, often way less.

Patients wait longest in Canada, Sweden and Norway

Wait times are the boogeyman of public health systems all...

expathealth.org

The minimum salary in Germany is around 50% the average salary and even more in France, Spain and so on.

/yawn, only 1.9% of workers in the US are making the actual minimum wage. As @visualseed said "high paying jobs are plentiful"

People don’t have to ask for food because the state provides the food if necessary.

Same here, assistance is given to those that need it, and quite a few who don't.

 

[Sf844]

In the US no one can be denied healthcare at a hospital. I understand that is not preventative care at a primary care physician but you cannot be denied healthcare. Also, aren't Europeans often subjected to lengthy wait times for care? Seems it takes a long time to see a specialist in most of Europe. I don't think I have ever waited more than 2-3 weeks, often way less.



/yawn, only 1.9% of workers in the US are making the actual minimum wage. As @visualseed said "high paying jobs are plentiful"



Same here, assistance is given to those that need it, and quite a few who don't.

But you can’t have shorter times because of your wealth. Have you ever thought what people feel if you get a better treatment because you’re richer? Of course not.

Yeah people can’t be denied (despised) healthcare at a hospital in case of emergency/immediate mortal danger (only to bankrupt them afterward of course). Don’t make me laugh. If you think that’s healthcare you don’t even know what proper healthcare means.

How many people are making less than 60% the average salary in America?

I guess the guy standing in front of the Starbucks at 95 Wall St didn’t get the memo regarding those sufficient meals provided by the state.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I could be poor managers but that isn’t what the unions said upon organization. “To secure rights we previously didn’t have” was expressed in the AppleCORE open letter to Tim Cook and what IAMAW that helped the Maryland store organize reiterated. That sounds like bargaining power to me. We don’t have a statement from the OK store yet so we’ll have to wait and see.

Yeah, but we’ve seen the questionnaire they’ve sent to members asking about what to focus on.

The Towson Union actually sent a survey to their members to identify up to three of these as the most important improvements to them. I’m assuming if there are truly horrific conditions at Apple, we’d see that indicated here as the horrible things and practices that EVERYONE has experienced and that those union employees would like to see ended.

• Wage increases
• Improvements to health and welfare benefits
• medical costs containment
• Retirement (pension)
• Scheduling issues
• Improve paid time off (vacation, holidays, sick leave)
• Respect from employer
• increase staffing
• Other (I guess human rights violations COULD fit under “other”, but one would think they’d call them out specifically)

Other questions on the survey asked members to rate areas of improvement as not important, slightly important, very important, or essential.

• General wage increases
• Transparency on wages/pay brackets
• Premium pay for special skills (e.g., non-English-speaking employees)
• Reduce time it takes to reach maximum rate of pay
• Add cost-of-living adjustment
• Add pension plan (see attached)
• Add profit sharing
• Improve 401(k) savings plan
• Improve medical coverage
• Improve dental coverage
• Improve vision coverage
• Improve mental health coverage
• Improve pet insurance coverage
• Improve accident and sickness coverage
• Improve life insurance coverage
• Medical costs containment
• Overtime procedures
• Increase paid holidays
• More vacation time
• Improve sick leave benefits
• Improve policies/procedures for approval of paid time off
• Improve bereavement pay and/or policy/ies

So, it’s more like “the working conditions are pretty much fine, we just want to actually have to work less, and get more stuff”. What you won’t see here… Coursera and tuition reimbursement.

Waiting to see what comes out of Oklahoma. I’d be willing to bet it’ll be much the same because the “working conditions” at the Apple Store won’t be bad enough for them to have them on a list of demands.

… and it’s effectively the “right” to make more money while working less.

I agree with you that they feel they don’t have a good option to quit and go elsewhere but that also doesn’t mean they are getting compensated as they should.

So, upon further thinking, it’s actually NOT right that they don’t have ANY good option to quit and go elsewhere. While other retail jobs might not pay more there are non-retail jobs that not only pay more, pay SIGNIFICANTLY more. Their desire to limit themselves to working ONLY retail jobs, though, will certainly affect their future wage ranges.

 

[visualseed]

Sounds to me like homeless folks could easily get jobs then, wonder why they haven't? Again, might not be wholly sustaining but it is work and a path forward. Maybe they could afford housing with public assistance for food only until they are back on their feet?

A few facts to help dispel the "homeless are just lazy and don't want to work" myth that you seem to be hinting at: 44% of the homeless population in the US is formally employed. Another 30% are day laborers. 20% are underage children. It is estimated that nearly 25% of the homeless population suffer from some form of physical disability or mental impairment and the fastest growing segment of the homeless population are those over 55. 90% of those in shelters and 80% of those on the streets are already receiving public assistance.... But, yeah, I guess it's good McDonald's is hiring...

The unemployment rate among the homeless is not much different that of the general population.

 

[mrjayviper]

That would be illegal

what if the store is not making enough money to make it worthwhile? (does not have to be apple as this can apply to any retail outlet)

 

[visualseed]

what if the store is not making enough money to make it worthwhile? (does not have to be apple as this can apply to any retail outlet)

They can't close the location simply because it unionized, but depending on the language of their agreement with the union they may be able to close it due to performance or reorganization. Again, depending on the contract they may be able to do this unilaterally or it may require them to buyout the contracts of the union workers (i.e. provide acceptable severance.) On the other hand, a business can close entirely without doing any of that.

 

[bruinsrme]

I guess if they want people to live and work there, companies will have to pay more

And people who already live there will have to find ways to get paid more, like unionizing

Boston has over 120k college students in the area with over another 400k within a short MBTA commute for potential employees. The commonwealth ave store is pretty nice. Sister stores nice as well.

 

[cupcakes2000]

what if the store is not making enough money to make it worthwhile? (does not have to be apple as this can apply to any retail outlet)

You can lay staff off, but you need to provide severance pay or an alternative employment.