Apple Store in Oklahoma City Becomes Second in U.S. to Unionize

[visualseed]

I'm sick of the word "trope" it is usually used when facts disrupt your desired narrative.

I am telling you for a fact that retailers (from mom and pop to regional chains) in my field cannot find people to work and when they do hire someone (usually teens through early twenties):

• They work for 2 days and then never come back
• Are fired for never putting their phones down
• Refuse to work the required shifts
• Refuse to actually work, like sweep the floors, merchandise goods, clean bathrooms, etc.

I have one retailer who reported that a teen employees therapist called on their behalf to quit, this is the world we live in.

This is absolute fact in my industry right now and it has nothing to do with higher paying jobs being available. If a massive number of higher paying jobs are available then what is all this union nonsense about?

It is a trope. It's been a trope and not liking the word doesn't make it not a trope.

Honestly, If I were working for minimum wage there would only be so much BS I would put up with before I would quit and not come back either. Especially the games some employers play with shifts and scheduling. Anecdotes aside because none of what you're listed are statically significant facts, you get the level of work you are willing to pay for. You mentioned sweeping floors and cleaning bathrooms as if it is work only worthy of low pay. I pay a custodial service to clean my offices and it's not cheap and their workers are well paid, have benefits, healthcare, etc.. You know what? Well paid custodial workers always sweep the floors and clean the bathrooms. If I handed a minimum wage employee a mop and broom and told them to get at along with a litany of entirely unrelated tasks, I would not be surprised if they cut corners or didn't show back up the next day.

Sure, employees can be problematic too and jobs that deal with a lot of people that are new to the job market are going to wash people out for a multitude of reasons, but It strikes me as quite arrogant to believe an entire class of workers as not worthy of a decent wage when employers that compensate workers respectfully have fewer problematic hires even when hiring from the same labor pool.

 

[visualseed]

Less about the pay, more about the benefits. You can’t put benefits aside. Total comp is key in these calculations. Benefits in most jobs are about 50% of what an employee costs. They are important.

Also, Apple stores are generally in more populated areas. Regional adjustment is important. Apple employees should probably be much better paid on average if only because of where Apple’s stores are. The fact that Apple pays less than 15% more on average is pretty unnerving as I see it.

I don't know the total comp value of the benefits, but Apple retail offers both healthcare and retirement benefits. I'm not sure that making on average $2 less an hour makes up for any perceived or actual advantage Wegman's offers its employees, but with an average employment duration of around 6 years a Wegman's employee makes about $24,000 less in pay than an average Apple retail employee over the same duration. I don't know what their tuition benefit pays but Apple will now reimburse up to $5,250 a year for every year of full time employment (20+ hours a week or more) or $31,500 for the same duration in addition to the extra $24K in pay.

 

[icanhazmac]

It is a trope. It's been a trope and not liking the word doesn't make it not a trope.

Honestly, If I were working for minimum wage there would only be so much BS I would put up with before I would quit and not come back either. Especially the games some employers play with shifts and scheduling. Anecdotes aside because none of what you're listed are statically significant facts, you get the level of work you are willing to pay for. You mentioned sweeping floors and cleaning bathrooms as if it is work only worthy of low pay. I pay a custodial service to clean my offices and it's not cheap and their workers are well paid, have benefits, healthcare, etc.. You know what? Well paid custodial workers always sweep the floors and clean the bathrooms. If I handed a minimum wage employee a mop and broom and told them to get at along with a litany of entirely unrelated tasks, I would not be surprised if they cut corners or didn't show back up the next day.

Sure, employees can be problematic too and jobs that deal with a lot of people that are new to the job market are going to wash people out for a multitude of reasons, but It strikes me as quite arrogant to believe an entire class of workers as not worthy of a decent wage when employers that compensate workers respectfully have fewer problematic hires even when hiring from the same labor pool.

You didn't answer my question, try again, you typed a lot of words but avoided the one single, in bold, question.

What should this job pay in terms of $$/hr and benefits, please be specific a national average is ok, not NYC but not rural Alabama either. What is this elusive "decent wage"?

 

[mzeb]

I don't know the total comp value of the benefits, but Apple retail offers both healthcare and retirement benefits. I'm not sure that making on average $2 less an hour makes up for any perceived or actual advantage Wegman's offers its employees, but with an average employment duration of around 6 years a Wegman's employee makes about $24,000 less in pay than an average Apple retail employee over the same duration. I don't know what their tuition benefit pays but Apple will now reimburse up to $5,250 a year for every year of full time employment (20+ hours a week or more) or $31,500 for the same duration in addition to the extra $24K in pay.

Yes they do. Again, regional differences in cost of living. With the average cost of living in major metros being around 40% higher shouldn’t apple retail employees be making far more than a wegmans employee as that’s where apple’s stores are?
Coming back around they still need to unionize as they aren’t paid enough. I’ll take your argument on just pay and put the benes aside for now and come back to that. 24k over six years sounds like a lot but it really isn’t especially with that regional difference. Wegman’s employees might do just fine with 28k/yr on average due to the fact that they are both in city and rural. Try making 32k/yr work in Tampa, LA, Houston or Seattle where apple puts their retail. It isn’t gonna fly.
On the topic of befits again let’s say they are equal monetarily. Retirement and health benefits go further where things are cheaper. I’d argue apple’s average retail employee’s benefits should be a LOT higher than wegmans due to this. But they aren’t.
Putting the comparison of the two aside and taking a look at the situation of Apple retail employees in isolation are they making enough to live a reasonably comfortable life in the areas in which they work? It certainly doesn’t seem that way. Average cost of living in the greater Oklahoma City area is 60k. 32k/yr even with ok benefits seems pretty tight to me.

 

[InuNacho]

Most unions are openly communist in the 21st century, like the early 20th century, vs covertly in the latter half of the 20th. Many people aren’t willing to buy into the “benefits” you gain by getting in bed with communists.

I'd rather have a Commie 8 hour workday than a child laborer's finger in my can of tuna.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Putting the comparison of the two aside and taking a look at the situation of Apple retail employees in isolation are they making enough to live a reasonably comfortable life in the areas in which they work? It certainly doesn’t seem that way.

Is their goal that they make enough to live a reasonably comfortable life? I’ve seen things indicating they want to get paid more, but 60k? I don’t even know what kind of negotiation would lead to 60k.

“So while we’ve reached 50k a year for all employees, and we understand that Apple retail employees are paid better than even the mall admin and leadership staff, AND every other mall job. BUT, as you can see by this chart, Apple still makes a lot of money. So, we want to start this next round of negotiations with a 10k raise for everyone. No we won’t do any more or take on any additional responsibilities or daily tasks, BUT we want more money.”

 

[visualseed]

Yes they do. Again, regional differences in cost of living. With the average cost of living in major metros being around 40% higher shouldn’t apple retail employees be making far more than a wegmans employee as that’s where apple’s stores are?
Coming back around they still need to unionize as they aren’t paid enough. I’ll take your argument on just pay and put the benes aside for now and come back to that. 24k over six years sounds like a lot but it really isn’t especially with that regional difference. Wegman’s employees might do just fine with 28k/yr on average due to the fact that they are both in city and rural. Try making 32k/yr work in Tampa, LA, Houston or Seattle where apple puts their retail. It isn’t gonna fly.
On the topic of befits again let’s say they are equal monetarily. Retirement and health benefits go further where things are cheaper. I’d argue apple’s average retail employee’s benefits should be a LOT higher than wegmans due to this. But they aren’t.
Putting the comparison of the two aside and taking a look at the situation of Apple retail employees in isolation are they making enough to live a reasonably comfortable life in the areas in which they work? It certainly doesn’t seem that way. Average cost of living in the greater Oklahoma City area is 60k. 32k/yr even with ok benefits seems pretty tight to me.

You understand that this article is about an Apple Store in Oklahoma City? Hardly a high-rent metropolis. Where they operate, Wegman's stores are in the very same neighborhoods and pull workers (and customers) from the very same neighborhoods as Apple Stores. Often they are only a few miles away from each other. Average cost of living Raleigh is $102K a year. In Raleigh, Wegman's staring salaries are $14.50/hr (30K a year) while Apple Retail jobs in Raleigh pay $23/hr (47K a year)

I specifically said Apple could do better. From the start I pointed out that you holding up Wegman's up as a poster-child model-employer was not accurate.

 

[visualseed]

You didn't answer my question, try again, you typed a lot of words but avoided the one single, in bold, question.

What should this job pay in terms of $$/hr and benefits, please be specific a national average is ok, not NYC but not rural Alabama either. What is this elusive "decent wage"?

Considering unionized employees in the US are at an all-time low and retail unionization efforts are only targeting companies with critical masses of employees (Apple, Strarbucks, Amazon, etc.) should be answer enough for you. It's obvious that nobody wants to do any job for an insulting wage. A "decent wage" is one where you can attract dependable employees that will do the work required of them and not have to resort to the "nobody wants to work" trope during a time when America has one of the lowest unemployment rates in modern history. These companies that can't find decent workers are not fighting endemic laziness, they are competing for workers that already have better employment options or churning though the ~3% of the population that is difficult to employ.

To directly answer you question you pay a wage that allows you to maintain decent and dependable employees. if that's $10 more than minimum wage or $50 more, that's what a decent wage is. If your business can't afford that then maybe it's time to reevaluate your business model. Not every business deserves to exist. Berating people that don't want to work for minimum or insulting wages is not a recipe for success. It's always easy to spot a business owner that treats employees like liabilities instead of assets.

 

[bruinsrme]

I don't know the total comp value of the benefits, but Apple retail offers both healthcare and retirement benefits. I'm not sure that making on average $2 less an hour makes up for any perceived or actual advantage Wegman's offers its employees, but with an average employment duration of around 6 years a Wegman's employee makes about $24,000 less in pay than an average Apple retail employee over the same duration. I don't know what their tuition benefit pays but Apple will now reimburse up to $5,250 a year for every year of full time employment (20+ hours a week or more) or $31,500 for the same duration in addition to the extra $24K in pay.

It‘s difficult to explain total compensation vs paycheck.
Does wegmans offer employee stock purchase?
If you do the quick sale you’ll make a minimum of 21% on your contribution ever 6 months, essentially free money.
Apple benefits are tough to beat.
Those that go from non-union to union may find out they may have actually lost.

 

[icanhazmac]

Considering unionized employees in the US are at an all-time low and retail unionization efforts are only targeting companies with critical masses of employees (Apple, Strarbucks, Amazon, etc.) should be answer enough for you. It's obvious that nobody wants to do any job for an insulting wage. A "decent wage" is one where you can attract dependable employees that will do the work required of them and not have to resort to the "nobody wants to work" trope during a time when America has one of the lowest unemployment rates in modern history. These companies that can't find decent workers are not fighting endemic laziness, they are competing for workers that already have better employment options or churning though the ~3% of the population that is difficult to employ.

To directly answer you question you pay a wage that allows you to maintain decent and dependable employees. if that's $10 more than minimum wage or $50 more, that's what a decent wage is. If your business can't afford that then maybe it's time to reevaluate your business model. Not every business deserves to exist. Berating people that don't want to work for minimum or insulting wages is not a recipe for success. It's always easy to spot a business owner that treats employees like liabilities instead of assets.

Once again, lots of words but no answer, can you please answer the question?

What should this job pay in terms of $$/hr and benefits, please be specific a national average is ok, not NYC but not rural Alabama either. What is this elusive "decent wage"?

 

[visualseed]

It‘s difficult to explain total compensation vs paycheck.
Does wegmans offer employee stock purchase?
If you do the quick sale you’ll make a minimum of 21% on your contribution ever 6 months, essentially free money.
Apple benefits are tough to beat.
Those that go from non-union to union may find out they may have actually lost.

Normally I would agree but we are talking retail jobs where average durations of employment are too short and wages too low to amass any significant equity or retirement savings. Certainly any stock options and employee profit sharing is a benefit, but take-home pay is still the primary motivator at this level. Having said that, having a few thousand dollars in stock and retirement saving (especially if employer-matched) can go a long way since most of these jobs are held by young people at that start of their careers and can compound over decades if they don't cash them out.

 

[visualseed]

Once again, lots of words but no answer, can you please answer the question?

What should this job pay in terms of $$/hr and benefits, please be specific a national average is ok, not NYC but not rural Alabama either. What is this elusive "decent wage"?

I answered your question. I'm not here to educate you.

 

[icanhazmac]

I answered your question. I'm not here to educate you.

No you very clearly didn't, I very clearly asked you what should the $$/hr and benefits be for the part time retail job I described. Believe me, you are educating no one. I asked for your opinion on the matter and so far you have said nothing of value.

 

[visualseed]

No you very clearly didn't, I very clearly asked you what should the $$/hr and benefits be for the part time retail job I described. Believe me, you are educating no one. I asked for your opinion on the matter and so far you have said nothing of value.

There is no definitive answer. You offer a package that allows you to maintain happy employees. If you can't keep decent employees, that's on you.

 

[bruinsrme]

You understand that this article is about an Apple Store in Oklahoma City? Hardly a high-rent metropolis. Where they operate, Wegman's stores are in the very same neighborhoods and pull workers (and customers) from the very same neighborhoods as Apple Stores. Often they are only a few miles away from each other. Average cost of living Raleigh is $102K a year. In Raleigh, Wegman's staring salaries are $14.50/hr (30K a year) while Apple Retail jobs in Raleigh pay $23/hr (47K a year)

I specifically said Apple could do better. From the start I pointed out that you holding up Wegman's up as a poster-child model-employer was not accurate.

Salary is based on 2080 hours, so it’s closer to 48k.
I worked in a small store and it had over 80 employees. I think people would be amazed at how many people each store has.

 

[visualseed]

Salary is based on 2080 hours, so it’s closer to 48k.
I worked in a small store and it had over 80 employees. I think people would be amazed at how many people each store has.

Correct. I was doing sleepy-time math.

 

[bruinsrme]

Normally I would agree but we are talking retail jobs where average durations of employment are too short and wages too low to amass any significant equity or retirement savings. Certainly any stock options and employee profit sharing is a benefit, but take-home pay is still the primary motivator at this level. Having said that, having a few thousand dollars in stock and retirement saving (especially if employer-matched) can go a long way since most of these jobs are held by young people at that start of their careers and can compound over decades if they don't cash them out.

Apple has a better tension than most retailers.
Regardless of what the salary is there are excellent options for employees.
Many younger employees are still under their parents insurance.
Employee stock purchase programs have 2 enrollments per year. The employee can contribute up to 15% post tax. At the end of the perior (6 month) the employees contribution is used to purchase stock at a discount. You can quick sale or retain. The quicj]k sale yields a minimum of 21% return.
if you leave during the period, the money is given back to you without penalty. Great way to save for something.
In the end either the union will get benefits or pay. My guess is pay.
The union leadership will be happy as they are guaranteed to get their cut, regardless.
Having been in a union shop I always loved hearing the groans of paid time off, fewer holidays, no flexibility in their schedule and so on.
I wish them luck.

 

[bruinsrme]

Correct. I was doing sleepy-time math.

No worries. Many people don’t know of the magical 2080.

 

[inkswamp]

You do realize that unions are another power vertical that wield political and economic leverage and are just as likely to exploit their members as corporations are? I'm not here to negate all the benefits of unions, which there are many, but being critical of them, especially in areas where their benefits are negligible, does not make one a victim of "anti-union propaganda"

I've worked many jobs with and without unions. Without any doubt, the jobs with unions were higher paying, have better benefits and FAR less exploitation and mistreatment of workers than non-union workplaces. It's not even a contest. You can talk about "power verticals" and frame things how ever you want, but the reality is that unions work and they work really freakin' well.

 

[johnmacward]

I’m always so shocked by the attitude in this forum towards unionisation. I’d wager that the vast majority of posters here are employees of someone (I’ll admit that I could very well be wrong too, you could all be gainfully and happily self employed but that’s statistically a rarer kind) and because of that you’re actually voting AGAINST your interests as employees to have strong representation for yourself in relation to profits sharing, better wages, respect at work, fair treatment from your managers etc. Unions are wonderfully GOOD things and while in a strongly pro business society anti-Union propaganda can be powerful and try and paint them as purely negative, it doesn’t have to be believed. If you’re employed, it’s in your interest to be a part of a union as much as your employer may not like that.

 

[The_Gream]

Yet you still feel underpaid and wanted to move if you have the opportunity. 😂 So much for that making yourself "valuable" to your company, because apparently they don't feel you are (based on your own assessment).

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I should have been.
Yes, but I moved of my own accord, not because I got fired or laid off. Ether from boredom, life changes or some other factor I decided it is best for me to move on.

I spent a lot of years working long-term health. I got to the point, that I couldn’t take watching these grandmas and grandpas I took care of, and loved like family, passing away. So I made a career change back to retail, which is what I have done since. I have learned and grown. I have had mangers fight to get me better pay because I made myself valuable.

 

[Sf844]

You didn't answer my question, try again, you typed a lot of words but avoided the one single, in bold, question.

What should this job pay in terms of $$/hr and benefits, please be specific a national average is ok, not NYC but not rural Alabama either. What is this elusive "decent wage"?

Any 8 hr per day job should pay enough for a person to eat 3 meals per day, have a roof, and health insurance.

A low end job should pay enough to afford 3 budget meals per day, an affordable neighborhood at a reasonable distance from the workplace, and health insurance.

What do you expect people to do if they work and can't afford a home, eating, and health insurance in a wealthy country where others have more than they can count? Be civil, quiet, and reasonable?

People don't live in spreadsheets, they live in the real world. Any country with a GDP per capita of $30k+ that fails to do so is simply a mismanaged country, and should be ashamed of itself as a system and as a society.

 

[scotty321]

Such fools.

Only brainwashed young communists, leftists, and Democrats — which is the majority of Apple’s college-based workforce — would be stupid enough & brainwashed enough to unionize.

It shows how little economic knowledge they have, because this will hurt BOTH themselves AND customers.

PragerU doesn’t have a 5-minute video about private unions, but this 5-minute video about the teacher’s union will give people enough understanding to see that unions are the most harmful thing for everyone in society:

Teachers Unions vs. Students | PragerU

There is a dilemma in American education. On the one hand, teachers are essential to student achievement. On the other, teachers unions promote…

www.prageru.com

 

[ian87w]

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I should have been.
Yes, but I moved of my own accord, not because I got fired or laid off. Ether from boredom, life changes or some other factor I decided it is best for me to move on.

I spent a lot of years working long-term health. I got to the point, that I couldn’t take watching these grandmas and grandpas I took care of, and loved like family, passing away. So I made a career change back to retail, which is what I have done since. I have learned and grown. I have had mangers fight to get me better pay because I made myself valuable.

Alright. Kudos to you for making the tough decisions.

Personally, Been there done that. Used to work in a multinational company, and our division was literally the only one that was performing in the year. Yet for the next year, HQ decided our division was no longer needed and just like that, everybody was let go, like Thanos snap. That's when I learn, in the end, my own well being is what's important.

 

[NY Guitarist]

Only brainwashed young communists, leftists, and Democrats — which is the majority of Apple’s college-based workforce — would be stupid enough & brainwashed enough to unionize.

^ Speaking of brainwashed, hyperbolic BS.

PragerU doesn’t have a 5-minute video about private unions, but this 5-minute video about the teacher’s union will give people enough understanding to see that unions are the most harmful thing for everyone in society:

Propaganda nonsense.