Apple Threatens to Pull FaceTime and iMessage in the UK Over Proposed Surveillance Law Changes

[cyb3rdud3]

Which country are you based out of now? It still doesn't look feasible to do in Austria, even with the help of a tax lawyer, by the way, not unless we get married. €1,200 is still materially different to free, for what it's worth 😜

€1,200 when operating a business is really not a lot to continue doing business, but yes technically you are correct it was free, now you'll need to either do it yourself (save on the lawyer fees, still need a notary) or don't do it. It's a choice, its still possible though.

Edit: Friends of mine have also been hit with the old "we're not taking applications from non-EU citizens" line when applying to EU jobs, as companies dislike the added overhead. Applying with the same opportunities as locals was amazing, while it lasted.

Sure, I get that. At risk of annoying you, I'm too Germanic too care , that is down to skillset as well. If one has a desireable skill set then there is always a way. And if not, then go down the residency route first. Can always buy a property in Latvia or Cyprus to get that EU passport, or find out that there is an Irish connection in the family and get it that way...Or as per the first point, set up a business to get around that.

 

[KOTN91]

As others have stated, iMessage is a relatively minor player in the UK and Facebook messenger, Snapchat and WhatsApp are much more dominant

 

[bigchrisfgb]

Stop blaming brexit for everything that goes wrong. Many other European countries are struggling economically and they are still in the EU.

I was actually responding to someone who claimed it’s not a big market for Apple now that the U.K. has left the EU.


However Brexit is a disaster, yeah the whole world is performing badly, but we are in a much worse position because of Brexit and it will last longer for us. We can’t even keep a steady supply of vegetables due to Brexit.

 

[laptech]

I was actually responding to someone who claimed it’s not a big market for Apple now that the U.K. has left the EU.


However Brexit is a disaster, yeah the whole world is performing badly, but we are in a much worse position because of Brexit and it will last longer for us. We can’t even keep a steady supply of vegetables due to Brexit.

I doubt Apple bases their sales figures on countries that are in the European Union (27) but rather those that are in the European continent (44). As for the vegetables, news media in the UK have pointed out that stock levels of vegetables have been low in the UK due to poor weather in the UK and other countries where the UK buys it's vegetables from.

More fruit and veg shortages to come as weather in UK and Spain hits crops

Record heat in southern Europe and chilly start to British growing season spell more misery for shoppers

www.theguardian.com

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I was actually responding to someone who claimed it’s not a big market for Apple now that the U.K. has left the EU.

Are you sure about that? When you take a look at Apple Stores in European countries; the top 3 is;

1. UK - 39
2. France - 20
3. Italy - 17

So, even if you add the runners-up together, the UK has more stores. Would they do that when the UK is not a big market? What do you think?

However Brexit is a disaster, yeah the whole world is performing badly, but we are in a much worse position because of Brexit and it will last longer for us. We can’t even keep a steady supply of vegetables due to Brexit.

Is that Brexit? Or is it just incompetence of where you shop? We have no problem where we are. Waitrose is stocked well, as are our local farm shops. Amazon still delivers the same day. The list goes on. I've only lived just over 25 years in the UK, but one thing I've learned is that it is excellent at talking itself into unnecessary negativity. It's like the news outlets don't like any good news. And combine that with fairly little in-depth news on main stream media from other European countries, one may get the idea that it is all bad. It really isn't, the grass really isn't greener in other European countries.

Also when you look at the unemployment rate, only Germany does better in the Eurozone than the UK, and also the USA. But the UK is aligned with the G7, and fairing way better than the rest of the Eurozone. And when you look at youth unemployment rate, you definitely want to be in the UK. Plenty of opportunities.

Everyone I know is trying to recruit, hence my earlier knowledge and sharing, as we really have to go abroad as we and many others I know just can't get the staff.

Sure our Government is a joke, but hey when isn't a government a joke. The rise of extreme right across Europe I find concerning. The UK isn't there yet, it got close with the extreme left (and to me the extreme right/left are just the same) but that was quickly nipped in the butt by the good people of the UK peacefully at the elections.

Nothing is perfect, it will never be so, but the UK is really not as bad, nor is Brexit, as some make it out to be.

 

[laptech]

Are you sure about that? When you take a look at Apple Stores in European countries; the top 3 is;

1. UK - 39
2. France - 20
3. Italy - 17

So, even if you add the runners-up together, the UK has more stores. Would they do that when the UK is not a big market? What do you think?



Is that Brexit? Or is it just incompetence of where you shop? We have no problem where we are. Waitrose is stocked well, as are our local farm shops. Amazon still delivers the same day. The list goes on. I've only lived just over 25 years in the UK, but one thing I've learned is that it is excellent at talking itself into unnecessary negativity. It's like the news outlets don't like any good news. And combine that with fairly little in-depth news on main stream media from other European countries, one may get the idea that it is all bad. It really isn't, the grass really isn't greener in other European countries.

Also when you look at the unemployment rate, only Germany does better in the Eurozone than the UK, and also the USA. But the UK is aligned with the G7, and fairing way better than the rest of the Eurozone. And when you look at youth unemployment rate, you definitely want to be in the UK. Plenty of opportunities.

Everyone I know is trying to recruit, hence my earlier knowledge and sharing, as we really have to go abroad as we and many others I know just can't get the staff.

Sure our Government is a joke, but hey when isn't a government a joke. The rise of extreme right across Europe I find concerning. The UK isn't there yet, it got close with the extreme left (and to me the extreme right/left are just the same) but that was quickly nipped in the butt by the good people of the UK peacefully at the elections.

Nothing is perfect, it will never be so, but the UK is really not as bad, nor is Brexit, as some make it out to be.

Anything UK related always seems to get blamed due to brexit. Apple not doing well, it's due to brexit, Apple raising prices, it's due to brexit, Apple not supporting a product, it's due to brexit, Apple support taking to long, it's due to brexit.

Negative news sells and because of the internet and digital news, there is huge pressure amongst news providers to come up with news stories they can sell (mostly false) and with the UK, what better way to guarantee a story that will sell? make it about brexit because the news media know brexit is a big issue in the UK. Therefore am sure once the Vison Pro is released and hits the UK Apple stores, buyers will be complaining that the price of it is due to brexit.

 

[bigchrisfgb]

Are you sure about that? When you take a look at Apple Stores in European countries; the top 3 is;

1. UK - 39
2. France - 20
3. Italy - 17

So, even if you add the runners-up together, the UK has more stores. Would they do that when the UK is not a big market? What do you think?

Did you just not read my original post at all or did you just get side tracked defending Brexit?
For reference, I actually say that the U.K. is one of it’s biggest markets for Apple, possibly the biggest in continental Europe land mass.

 

[flaubert]

I dropped in to simply say I support Apple in standing up to this kind of infringement, even though it will inconvenience me and my family personally.

 

[ric22]

Are you sure about that? When you take a look at Apple Stores in European countries; the top 3 is;

1. UK - 39
2. France - 20
3. Italy - 17

So, even if you add the runners-up together, the UK has more stores. Would they do that when the UK is not a big market? What do you think?



Is that Brexit? Or is it just incompetence of where you shop? We have no problem where we are. Waitrose is stocked well, as are our local farm shops. Amazon still delivers the same day. The list goes on. I've only lived just over 25 years in the UK, but one thing I've learned is that it is excellent at talking itself into unnecessary negativity. It's like the news outlets don't like any good news. And combine that with fairly little in-depth news on main stream media from other European countries, one may get the idea that it is all bad. It really isn't, the grass really isn't greener in other European countries.

Also when you look at the unemployment rate, only Germany does better in the Eurozone than the UK, and also the USA. But the UK is aligned with the G7, and fairing way better than the rest of the Eurozone. And when you look at youth unemployment rate, you definitely want to be in the UK. Plenty of opportunities.

Everyone I know is trying to recruit, hence my earlier knowledge and sharing, as we really have to go abroad as we and many others I know just can't get the staff.

Sure our Government is a joke, but hey when isn't a government a joke. The rise of extreme right across Europe I find concerning. The UK isn't there yet, it got close with the extreme left (and to me the extreme right/left are just the same) but that was quickly nipped in the butt by the good people of the UK peacefully at the elections.

Nothing is perfect, it will never be so, but the UK is really not as bad, nor is Brexit, as some make it out to be.

When did you see the emergence of an "extreme left" in the UK? Modern day Labour barely lean left of centre. Though that's hard to discern, due to the absence of any policies on their part, certainly a lack of any policies that stick to for more than a few months.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

When did you see the emergence of an "extreme left" in the UK? Modern day Labour barely lean left of centre. Though that's hard to discern, due to the absence of any policies on their part, certainly a lack of any policies that stick to for more than a few months.

I’m not even naming his name. If you can’t see that and don’t understand why he lost so drastically (worst defeat) and don’t recognise that for what it was then were done discussing.

 

[ric22]

I’m not even naming his name. If you can’t see that and don’t understand why he lost so drastically (worst defeat) and don’t recognise that for what it was then were done discussing.

You're talking about Corbyn. I dislike his politics strongly, but he was only a "far left socialist commie" for the right wing rags and the idiots that believe what they write.

 

[_Spinn_]

Good. This kind of government behavior needs to be opposed.

 

[MajorFubar]

iMessage and Facetime are dead in the UK. They are iPhone-only communications platforms, and even going by actual statistics, 47% of UK's smartphone owners are Android users. In reality, and based on my own empirical evidence, that's probably closer to 60-65% if you discount the employer-provided 'work phone' market, where iPhones are still strangely dominant (hence the skewed statistics).

I can't tell you the last time I used either iMessage or FaceTime. I don't video-call at all outside of work (where Teams is king of my workplace), and all my personal messaging is entirely via platform-independent tools like WhatsApp and Messenger. So I'm pretty much like everyone else in the UK.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

iMessage and Facetime are dead in the UK. They are iPhone-only communications platforms, and even going by actual statistics, 47% of UK's smartphone owners are Android users. In reality that's probably closer to 60% outside of the 'work phone' market, where iPhones are still strangely dominant (hence the skewed statistics).

I can't tell you the last time I used either iMessage or FaceTime. I don't video-call at all outside of work (where Teams is king of my workplace), and all my personal messaging is entirely via platform-independent tools like WhatsApp and Messenger. So I'm pretty much like everyone else in the UK.

You need better friends. Everyone I know uses iMessage/SMS and FaceTime. And not just from their phone also works in tablet, laptop and desktops.

But yes WhatsApp is popular with the android, vaping crowd who continuously runs out of data and try and connect to every public WiFi as their phone contract also don’t have messages and minutes included. Well according to my college going children.

It a different market segment, not standards compliant, not great when you have an emergency, or out in the sticks. But yes for some reason a lot of people like it.

 

[MajorFubar]

I've lost count of how many generalisations you've made in just one post there, but if you're that up yourself then fine.

The facts are Android has, at the very least, market-parity with iOS in the UK, so iOS-only tools are of nugatory benefit, and by-and-large won't be missed by the majority of smartphone owners, who either don't use them (because they are on an Apple device but they need to use platform-independent communication-tools) or can't use them (because they're not on an Apple device, like how the HUGE swathing majority of people worldwide are not).

EDIT: BTW I'm very happy with my friends and I don't judge them nor choose them by what brand of tech they use. So there's that. Though it sounds as though you do, if everyone you know are using Apple devices.

 

[laptech]

The UK government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People need to look at the inquires that took place after the London bombing and the Manchester bombing and the complaints put towards the security services and the government for not doing enough to stop the bombers. Look at the inquires that investigated child pornography/exploitation and you will see a common theme in that the security services were hampered in their monitoring of suspects due to their use of encrypted messaging systems and devices and as people will point out, you cannot go around arresting people without evidence and this is what hampered the security services, not being able to monitor communications meant they did not have enough information to arrest the bombers, yes they was on the watch radar but still there was not enough evidence to arrest them prior to the bombers setting off their bombs. It was the same with the investigation into child abuse, police knew people involved were using encrypted devices to communicate with one another and to send pictures and videos of children but they had no evidence because everything the criminals was doing was encrypted.

Now the UK government want to bring in a system that will help them deal with the complaints from those whose lost loved ones in the bombings and the families of affected children and now people are saying 'Nope, not going to happen. You bring in that law and we will pull out of the UK'. So, like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Maybe all those, including Apple who are against the law, should go face to face with the families who lost loved ones in the bombings and families who children were sexually abused at the hands of others, and tell them that Your right to privacy is more important than the life, security and safety of the families loved one'. Let's see how that turns out.

 

[mrochester]

The UK government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People need to look at the inquires that took place after the London bombing and the Manchester bombing and the complaints put towards the security services and the government for not doing enough to stop the bombers. Look at the inquires that investigated child pornography/exploitation and you will see a common theme in that the security services were hampered in their monitoring of suspects due to their use of encrypted messaging systems and devices and as people will point out, you cannot go around arresting people without evidence and this is what hampered the security services, not being able to monitor communications meant they did not have enough information to arrest the bombers, yes they was on the watch radar but still there was not enough evidence to arrest them prior to the bombers setting off their bombs. It was the same with the investigation into child abuse, police knew people involved were using encrypted devices to communicate with one another and to send pictures and videos of children but they had no evidence because everything the criminals was doing was encrypted.

Now the UK government want to bring in a system that will help them deal with the complaints from those whose lost loved ones in the bombings and the families of affected children and now people are saying 'Nope, not going to happen. You bring in that law and we will pull out of the UK'. So, like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Maybe all those, including Apple who are against the law, should go face to face with the families who lost loved ones in the bombings and families who children were sexually abused at the hands of others, and tell them that Your right to privacy is more important than the life, security and safety of the families loved one'. Let's see how that turns out.

As usual, it’s a compromise. Apple‘s CSAM solution was a clever compromise between providing protection and detection but maintaining user privacy as far as practically possible. But it still received major pushback. If certain groups aren’t prepared to budge an inch from their position then nothing will happen.

People need to accept that the tools they like using to keep their conversations secure and private are also the same tools being used by criminals to plot (and get away) with serious crimes.

 

[JustinePaula]

This is where Apple really went wrong, had Apple's message system been licenced for all devices, across platforms, windows, mac, ios, android, if you wanted more than standard features, you could buy features, or space ie storage, maybe some sort of cross platform with icloud, so what you took on your phone/ipad synced to your laptop via icloud, then I would have invested in the iphone, or buying the app, paying a $ or 2 for a simple app, like what has become our tool of trade here, whatsapp, everyone uses it, as it is on phones, laptops, getting media across the network is no issue.. Apple has a huge problem with being paranoid...

I cannot understand how a 2023 top of the class, most expensive iphone in history cannot bluetooth/airdrop to a 32bit mac pro, yet a 2023 bottom of the range Samsung A23 can..

What this means is that Apple has no ability to code create a safe zone, so instead of solving the problem, just lock everyone out, but they left the keys in the door, with milk n cookies..

 

[laptech]

As usual, it’s a compromise. Apple‘s CSAM solution was a clever compromise between providing protection and detection but maintaining user privacy as far as practically possible. But it still received major pushback. If certain groups aren’t prepared to budge an inch from their position then nothing will happen.

People need to accept that the tools they like using to keep their conversations secure and private are also the same tools being used by criminals to plot (and get away) with serious crimes.

But where do companies and governments draw the line? tech companies are doing more and more to make sure their messaging systems and devices are more heavily secured by encryption but then throw up their hands and say 'not our problem' when their messaging systems and devices are used by criminals because the encryption and security is so good and then you have governments going to the tech companies saying 'please help us so we can stop the criminals' which ends up with them hitting a brick wall because the tech companies wont help them.

 

[mrochester]

This is where Apple really went wrong, had Apple's message system been licenced for all devices, across platforms, windows, mac, ios, android, if you wanted more than standard features, you could buy features, or space ie storage, maybe some sort of cross platform with icloud, so what you took on your phone/ipad synced to your laptop via icloud, then I would have invested in the iphone, or buying the app, paying a $ or 2 for a simple app, like what has become our tool of trade here, whatsapp, everyone uses it, as it is on phones, laptops, getting media across the network is no issue.. Apple has a huge problem with being paranoid...

I cannot understand how a 2023 top of the class, most expensive iphone in history cannot bluetooth/airdrop to a 32bit mac pro, yet a 2023 bottom of the range Samsung A23 can..

What this means is that Apple has no ability to code create a safe zone, so instead of solving the problem, just lock everyone out, but they left the keys in the door, with milk n cookies..

It’s entirely dependent on the business model. All of the decisions Apple make are made around the business model of selling high margin phyiscal products. The software and services offered are in service of that goal.

 

[mrochester]

But where do companies and governments draw the line? tech companies are doing more and more to make sure their messaging systems and devices are more heavily secured by encryption but then throw up their hands and say 'not our problem' when their messaging systems and devices are used by criminals because the encryption and security is so good and then you have governments going to the tech companies saying 'please help us so we can stop the criminals' which ends up with them hitting a brick wall because the tech companies wont help them.

Governments need to create (and implement) laws that ban E2E encryption then, otherwise tech companies will continue making the products that consumers demand (Including criminal consumers).

 

[JustinePaula]

It’s entirely dependent on the business model. All of the decisions Apple make are made around the business model of selling high margin phyiscal products. The software and services offered are in service of that goal.

Or renting apps as it turns out, so there is no reason why at WWDC 2023 Apple could have made the announcement that you could rent/buy a year access to Apple message, and for x or y per month/year, you get this or that service add on, but no... Apple is not at all very smart, it took 13 years to bring video editing from the laptop to the ipad.. Anyway Apple know what is best for every human on the planet.. Trust Bill Gates for your medical advice, trust Tim Cook for all your tech solutions...

 

[mrochester]

Or renting apps as it turns out, so there is no reason why at WWDC 2023 Apple could have made the announcement that you could rent/buy a year access to Apple message, and for x or y per month/year, you get this or that service add on, but no... Apple is not at all very smart, it took 13 years to bring video editing from the laptop to the ipad.. Anyway Apple know what is best for every human on the planet.. Trust Bill Gates for your medical advice, trust Tim Cook for all your tech solutions...

They could do, but maybe they’ve decided that they can’t make enough money selling an iMessage subscription vs using iMessage as a feature to attract people to buy a physical product? I presume that calculation has been done (and I think we know they have made that assessment in the past). It would be interesting to see how much an iMessage subscription would need to be to make up for potentially lower physical device sales.

 

[JustinePaula]

They could do, but maybe they’ve decided that they can’t make enough money selling an iMessage subscription vs using iMessage as a feature to attract people to buy a physical product? I presume that calculation has been done (and I think we know they have made that assessment in the past). It would be interesting to see how much an iMessage subscription would need to be to make up for potentially lower physical device sales.

Yeah, fcp for ipad is keeping the company afloat...

 

[mrochester]

Yeah, fcp for ipad is keeping the company afloat...

Huh?