Apple TV 4K does not support 24.000fps playback

[ActionableMango]

If you buy a good TV, it will generally compensate for this. Check rtings.com for reviews, there is a judder section that will tell you whether the TV can playback 60i/60p inputs without judder and what settings achieve this.

Many modern TVs do a pretty good job reversing the judder.

Yes and no. Some high end TVs can reverse judder. Many that claim they do, like my high end LG OLED where the feature is called "Real Cinema", can't actually do it from a 1080p/60 or higher signal. So they are really only doing reverse pulldown for example from 720p/60, 1080i/60, or lower. It's clear they are only dealing with HD cable, HD OTA, DVD, etc...Bluray and better don't get the Reverse Pulldown feature.

This is why the rtings website, which is really thorough but also out of date, specifically has two separate columns for judder-free 60p and 60i:

Also note that many/most high end TVs actually don't support either of those two. Mine does not.

Even those that do support it can get confused with mixed content and actually make things worse (mixed content like switching from movie to commercials, or from disc menus to logos to FBI warnings to content). So the real fix here isn't trying to undo the incorrect frame rate, it's to send the correct frame rate in the first place.

 

[Packers1958]

Yes and no. Some high end TVs can reverse judder. Many that claim they do, like my high end LG OLED where the feature is called "Real Cinema", can't actually do it from a 1080p/60 or higher signal. So they are really only doing reverse pulldown for example from 720p/60, 1080i/60, or lower. It's clear they are only dealing with HD cable, HD OTA, DVD, etc...Bluray and better don't get the Reverse Pulldown feature.

This is why the rtings website, which is really thorough but also out of date, specifically has two separate columns for judder-free 60p and 60i:

View attachment 718763​

Also note that many/most high end TVs actually don't support either of those two. Mine does not.

Even those that do support it can get confused with mixed content and actually make things worse (mixed content like switching from movie to commercials, or from disc menus to logos to FBI warnings to content). So the real fix here isn't trying to undo the incorrect frame rate, it's to send the correct frame rate in the first place.

Do you have a 2017 OLED or 2016 OLED. I have a 2016 LG OLED and if the signal is 60 hz, RC is greyed out and not used. So with that model we are forced into 3:2 pulldown with any 60hz signal. The issue with the 2016 models is DV HDR isn't processed at 60hz on the 2016 models. It will take that 60 hz signal from the ATV and change it to 30hz, which creates a motion mess. Even when I watch DV HDR discs on my OPPO 203, the player sends 24hz, but the tv has RC greyed out, so it's doing some sort of 3:2 pulldown even on the 24hz signal with DV. The 2017 LG OLED actually can handle 60 hz DV HDR correctly.

I will see how it handles it. Because by default, if the signal coming into the tv is DV HDR, there is no way to force it to use HDR10 instead, which the tv can process at 60hz. So some of the HDR movies in itunes are DV HDR, and if that is a mess, I will be returning the ATV.

 

[Krevnik]

Even when I watch DV HDR discs on my OPPO 203, the player sends 24hz, but the tv has RC greyed out, so it's doing some sort of 3:2 pulldown even on the 24hz signal with DV. The 2017 LG OLED actually can handle 60 hz DV HDR correctly.

If the signal is 24p, RealCinema doesn’t have anything to do. IIRC, the 2016 only supported 60i for RealCinema.

 

[Rigby]

Yes and no. Some high end TVs can reverse judder. Many that claim they do, like my high end LG OLED where the feature is called "Real Cinema", can't actually do it from a 1080p/60 or higher signal. So they are really only doing reverse pulldown for example from 720p/60, 1080i/60, or lower. It's clear they are only dealing with HD cable, HD OTA, DVD, etc...Bluray and better don't get the Reverse Pulldown feature.

You don't necessarily need full reverse pulldown support. Judder can also be reduced by using motion interpolation, which many modern TVs routinely do as part of their image processing.

 

[ActionableMango]

Do you have a 2017 OLED or 2016 OLED. I have a 2016 LG OLED and if the signal is 60 hz, RC is greyed out and not used. So with that model we are forced into 3:2 pulldown with any 60hz signal. The issue with the 2016 models is DV HDR isn't processed at 60hz on the 2016 models. It will take that 60 hz signal from the ATV and change it to 30hz, which creates a motion mess. Even when I watch DV HDR discs on my OPPO 203, the player sends 24hz, but the tv has RC greyed out, so it's doing some sort of 3:2 pulldown even on the 24hz signal with DV. The 2017 LG OLED actually can handle 60 hz DV HDR correctly.

I will see how it handles it. Because by default, if the signal coming into the tv is DV HDR, there is no way to force it to use HDR10 instead, which the tv can process at 60hz. So some of the HDR movies in itunes are DV HDR, and if that is a mess, I will be returning the ATV.

2016. When I play BD and 4K UHD BD 24Hz movies there is no judder, so I don't think RC greyed out automatically means 3:2 pulldown. Let me know how it goes with your ATV4K. Personally I have actually decided not to buy an ATV4K unless/until it is capable of conveying the correct frame rate.

You don't necessarily need full reverse pulldown support. Judder can also be reduced by using motion interpolation, which many modern TVs routinely do as part of their image processing.

I appreciate you offering additional solutions to the problem. I tried that (TruMotion on my LG) and it definitely reduces the judder. However, it also introduces other problems, some of which are horrendous, like tearing, checkerboard black squares, and the worst being bright green squares briefly appearing. Personally I am okay with the "soap opera" effect as long as it is at its lowest setting, but the other problems introduced are not acceptable.

 

[Rigby]

I appreciate you offering additional solutions to the problem. I tried that (TruMotion on my LG) and it definitely reduces the judder. However, it also introduces other problems, some of which are horrendous, like tearing, checkerboard black squares, and the worst being bright green squares briefly appearing.

Yes, there are certainly differences in how well it's implemented in different displays.

Personally I am okay with the "soap opera" effect as long as it is at its lowest setting, but the other problems introduced are not acceptable.

Note that motion interpolation doesn't necessarily mean inserting new frames as well, which is what causes the "soap opera effect".

 

[Packers1958]

If the signal is 24p, RealCinema doesn’t have anything to do. IIRC, the 2016 only supported 60i for RealCinema.

Yes it does. RC on does a proper 5:5 pulldown on all 24hz material. When turned off the tv performs 3:2 on all 24hz material. You must have RC on for 24hz for correct cadence.

 

[2010mini]

Not trying to be sarcastic
... but.

Does the general tv watching public even care about 24fps?? I am talking about the bulk of the population that buys this stuff. If they do not, why then would any company include stuff they don’t care about?

 

[vipergts2207]

Not trying to be sarcastic
... but.

Does the general tv watching public even care about 24fps?? I am talking about the bulk of the population that buys this stuff. If they do not, why then would any company include stuff they don’t care about?

To make sure they're putting out a good product. Generally Apple wants to put out great products. Not to mention that external streaming boxes encompass a market that trends toward including a good number of enthusiasts as opposed to only 'average Joe Blow consumer'. The average consumer is probably just going to use their built-in TV apps anyway and not buy an Apple TV.

 

[upandown]

Done!

 

[Packers1958]

Not trying to be sarcastic
... but.

Does the general tv watching public even care about 24fps?? I am talking about the bulk of the population that buys this stuff. If they do not, why then would any company include stuff they don’t care about?

Because of DV HDR. Simple as that. More and more tv's are DV HDR capable, but most can not display it properly at 60hz. Most of these DV HDR capable tv's need the signal to be at 24hz to prevent motion issues. People will be buying and renting DV HDR movies only to find out the motion is jumpy on their new tv's. They will not know why. Apple could have easily made a streamer that would send all 24hz movies at 24hz, all 60hz movies at 60hz, etc, and avoid the complaints. Streaming at the native rate is not rocket science.

 

[andrewstirling]

Not trying to be sarcastic
... but.

Does the general tv watching public even care about 24fps?? I am talking about the bulk of the population that buys this stuff. If they do not, why then would any company include stuff they don’t care about?

Because it’s important for people who care about home theatre. And it’s an option that’s offered on the cheapest of Blu Ray players. It’s also available on cheap Kodi boxes and the Nvidia Shield. Yet Apple TV, a premium product at a premium price, simply doesn’t bother. It supports Dolby Vision and I’d argue that people who are prepared to pay for a Dolby Vision compatible tv are people who might be bothered at the film being played back incorrectly.

I keep hearing excuses for the shortcomings of various generations of Apple TV. For the second gen it was, hd sets aren’t really all that popular anyway. Then they advertised the third gen with 1080p support and you’d think they’d invented the format. Then with the 4th gen, the public didn’t care about 4k. Now 4k is apparently the best thing ever invented. But nobody cares about 24p.

Meanwhile....apples competitors have continued to release far more capable devices with all those missing features at a far cheaper price point. And the public (who apparently don’t care about all these features) have been snapping them up.

This latest box is a technical shambles when it comes to audio and video output. About the only thing it has going for it is cheap 4k films. Ironically they’ll only play hdr versions of these films reasonably on the most expensive of 4k sets. On many others they’ll be streaming at 30fps because many TVs can’t manage to display HDR or Dolby Vision at 60fps. And that’s going to look pretty awful.

 

[andrewstirling]

Apologies for the rant. Lol

 

[Packers1958]

This latest box is a technical shambles when it comes to audio and video output. About the only thing it has going for it is cheap 4k films. Ironically they’ll only play hdr versions of these films reasonably on the most expensive of 4k sets. On many others they’ll be streaming at 30fps because many TVs can’t manage to display HDR or Dolby Vision at 60fps. And that’s going to look pretty awful.

What's worse, Apple is converting 24hz to 60hz first, then sending to tv, forcing the tv then to backpedal and reduce to 30hz for DV. So 24hz-->60hz-->30hz. What a mess.

 

[-Gonzo-]

Ironically they’ll only play hdr versions of these films reasonably on the most expensive of 4k sets. On many others they’ll be streaming at 30fps because many TVs can’t manage to display HDR or Dolby Vision at 60fps. And that’s going to look pretty awful.

I fall into this category.
I was looking forward to getting this new AppleTV and being able to watch some of my movies in 4K but then see that my Panasonic TV that we've only had just over a year now might have issues as it's just a regular 4K panel, I don't even recall there being any HDR or Dolby Vision sets available at that time (if there was then they certainly weren't in our budget range)
Going by what Apple have put online I may have to set the ATV at 1080p then let the TV upscale to 4K which I'm not seeing much incentive to upgrade from my ATV4 as it's doing that already.

 

[vipergts2207]

I fall into this category.
I was looking forward to getting this new AppleTV and being able to watch some of my movies in 4K but then see that my Panasonic TV that we've only had just over a year now might have issues as it's just a regular 4K panel, I don't even recall there being any HDR or Dolby Vision sets available at that time (if there was then they certainly weren't in our budget range)
Going by what Apple have put online I may have to set the ATV at 1080p then let the TV upscale to 4K which I'm not seeing much incentive to upgrade from my ATV4 as it's doing that already.

If you don't have an HDR set, then you're not effected by this.

 

[-Gonzo-]

If you don't have an HDR set, then you're not effected by this.

So are you saying it still play movies fine in 4K just won't see the HDR side of things, if it will then happy days.
I just got a tad confused with what they'd put.

 

[vipergts2207]

So are you saying it still play movies fine in 4K just won't see the HDR side of things, if it will then happy days.
I just got a tad confused with what they'd put.

Right, the TVs that specifically can't do DV at 60 Hz is what the issue is. As long as your TV accepts a 4K 60 Hz signal, you'll be fine.

 

[2010mini]

Because it’s important for people who care about home theatre. And it’s an option that’s offered on the cheapest of Blu Ray players. It’s also available on cheap Kodi boxes and the Nvidia Shield. Yet Apple TV, a premium product at a premium price, simply doesn’t bother. It supports Dolby Vision and I’d argue that people who are prepared to pay for a Dolby Vision compatible tv are people who might be bothered at the film being played back incorrectly.

I keep hearing excuses for the shortcomings of various generations of Apple TV. For the second gen it was, hd sets aren’t really all that popular anyway. Then they advertised the third gen with 1080p support and you’d think they’d invented the format. Then with the 4th gen, the public didn’t care about 4k. Now 4k is apparently the best thing ever invented. But nobody cares about 24p.

Meanwhile....apples competitors have continued to release far more capable devices with all those missing features at a far cheaper price point. And the public (who apparently don’t care about all these features) have been snapping them up.

This latest box is a technical shambles when it comes to audio and video output. About the only thing it has going for it is cheap 4k films. Ironically they’ll only play hdr versions of these films reasonably on the most expensive of 4k sets. On many others they’ll be streaming at 30fps because many TVs can’t manage to display HDR or Dolby Vision at 60fps. And that’s going to look pretty awful.

And how big is the market for cinephiles? The ones who really care about Home theatre? Because let’s be honest. Most of the market will just buy a box and plug it into their TVs. And use the TV speakers to play the audio. THAT is the bulk of the market. And they don’t buy Apple products because it’s a “premium” brand. They buy it because it looks good and is easy to use.

Period.

Nvidia shield has all the bells and whistles..... but what is their market share???

 

[Packers1958]

And how big is the market for cinephiles? The ones who really care about Home theatre? Because let’s be honest. Most of the market will just buy a box and plug it into their TVs. And use the TV speakers to play the audio. THAT is the bulk of the market. And they don’t buy Apple products because it’s a “premium” brand. They buy it because it looks good and is easy to use.

Period.

Nvidia shield has all the bells and whistles..... but what is their market share???

I guess Apple has just become another company that doesn't care about doing it right, just making it look pretty because they know their customers are stupid or don't care.

 

[2010mini]

I guess Apple has just become another company that doesn't care about doing it right, just making it look pretty because they know their customers are stupid or don't care.

They are doing it right. They are going where the market is. And they are making a crap tonne of money doing just that.

 

[Packers1958]

They are doing it right. They are going where the market is. And they are making a crap tonne of money doing just that.

You can make it right, go where the market is, and also make a crap load of money. Same design, same revenue, same features, and stream 24hz and 24hz and 60hz at 60hz. Everything works exactly the same, the dumb people don't notice any difference, while the people who actually care about things being right, are happy. Added cost $0. Happy customers...priceless.

 

[brentsg]

Done. I'm shocked that Apple hasn't addressed this, and I'll probably return the $400+ worth of new Apple TVs that I preordered.

 

[andrewstirling]

They are doing it right. They are going where the market is. And they are making a crap tonne of money doing just that.

Not with Apple TV they haven’t. It’s hardly been a success to date has it? It’s been massively outsold by devices by amazon and roku. In my opinion this is because Apple have charged more for something which is blatantly an inferior product. There hasn’t been a single compelling reason to go for the Apple TV over its competitors to date. Now they’ve maybe got something in that they’re giving people cheap 4k media but up until last month all I’ve been hearing is that ‘People aren’t bothered about 4k’. Now I’m supposed to believe that ‘people are bothered enough about 4k to pay more than double the price for an Apple TV but....people aren’t bothered that it’ll look like **** on their TVs’

And while we’re at it, do you think that apple’s competitors will continue to keep selling 4k media at their inflated prices. And when the inevitable price drop happens....why should people buy an Apple TV with its failure to output films in native frame rate, native resolution and inability to play the vast majority of sound formats which have been standard for the past 10 or so years.

 

[AdamSeen]

It differs from person to person. If you haven't noticed it so far on regular cable TV or when using other devices that don't support 24Hz (such as the Roku), you're not likely to notice it now (tip: don't go looking for it too closely, you may not be able to "unsee" it in the future ).

Many modern TVs do a pretty good job reversing the judder.

I have seen that before and it annoys me, but I didn't realise it was an sync problem. I always assumed it was because it was 24fps. Good to know. Also, I always turn off the TV motion assists as I dislike seeing the 60fps interpolation - maybe that's part of it.