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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
You can always count on Macrumors….

Maybe not, whether it’s covid or the sad fact that people simply can’t be bothered to go to the office and mix with colleagues and socialise, which in my opinion is just sad, I still agree with Apples stance. More need to follow them
Socialise? Do you think work is some kind of social event? I know office relationships are important for some people, but I suspect that the majority of people don't particularly want any social contact with their co-workers - they want to hang out with friends and family or other interest groups (sports, hobbies, faith etc.)

I can accept that a certain amount of "social glue" can be good for team cohesion, and therefore performance, but the fundamental purpose of work is surely...work...not play.
 
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robinp

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2008
751
1,801
I don't get people that want to WFH forever and say that they can do everything they can do in the office over zoom. I'm like, ok, don't go to the bar or restaurants with friends in person and just do those over zoom too, you were doing that fine during the last couple years.
I think most people want flexibility. And honestly, if an employer trusts it’s employees and they were productive when 100% remote then it’s hard to see why a flexible hybrid approach wouldn’t work fine.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
Well Apple’s engineers get paid disgusting amounts of money/stock options. So They can get their butts back in the office and concentrate on fixing the buggiest software theyve released in nearly a decade (iOS 13, 14, 15).
You make it sound like Apple staff are unable to work effectively unless they are always in the office? I think we've proved that this is not always true.

It's pretty simple:
If your work requires frequent, in-depth communication with other people, particularly if it involves teaching or demonstrating something physical (even drawing on a whiteboard), or needs a lot of "ad hoc" communication (e.g. walking to someone's desk), then it will probably be improved by being physically present.

If your task requires deep focus with minimal distraction, in a quiet environment, and does not involve direct communication with other people, then this is probably better done at home (assuming home is a quiet environment, not full of screaming children :)

I would expect that a lot of Apple's engineering effort does fall into the first category, but not all of it.

Hence their fairly sensible approach to a hybrid of the two.
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
I would expect that a lot of Apple's engineering effort does fall into the first category, but not all of it.

Hence their fairly sensible approach to a hybrid of the two.
Isn't their approach to have their employees work 60% of the time in the office? The compromise is that no one gets the best environment to work in.

Half their staff is allergic to peanuts and the other is gluten intolerant and they compromised by serving everyone PB&J.
 
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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
Stop with this partial, tapered, odd/even, get your behind back to work at the office! I have never seen more employee whining or coddling by employers in my entire life.
But why, if it doesn't provide measurable benefit to the employer or employee?

It is because that's what you have to do, therefore everyone else must do it?

Some jobs (working in a retail store) are going to require physical presence. Other jobs may have some benefit by means of simplified communication in office spaces, but an awful lot of jobs require a lot of time spent doing some solitary activity that requires no human contact at all - not even via remote conferencing.

The time you spend collaborating in person should be proportional to its increased efficiency, not just unjustified presenteeism.

Remote working is one of the few things in life that can actually be a win-win for employer and employee.

Employers can get work time out of works because there is a tendency to use at least some of the previous commuting time actually working. Employers can have smaller office spaces that don't require a desk for every employee. They save on infrastructure costs for heating, electricity, internet bandwidth, computers etc.

Employees have less stress and a better work-life balance with more flexible working hours, with more sleep and probably more time for exercise, hobbies or social interaction (with people they choose). They save money by not commuting, buying lunches, coffees etc

Office time should be for collaboration, information sharing, customer meetings, social events etc.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
They should have been back to work a long time ago .
Oh, they never left "work"....they just haven't been doing it at the Apple campus.

Repeat after me: "work and office and separate concepts."

These days being "at work" does not mean you are in a special physical location with other people from the same organization.
 
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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
Isn't their approach to have their employees work 60% of the time in the office? The compromise is that no one gets the best environment to work in.

Half their staff is allergic to peanuts and the other is gluten intolerant and they compromised by serving everyone PB&J.
Yes, Apple's approach does sound a bit rigid on the face of it. Unless they have determined that 60% of everyone's work requires in-person collaboration and 40% is best done at home.....

I would hope that there is a bit more flexibility and that this is an "average" week.
 
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mdkdue

macrumors regular
Feb 10, 2011
182
168
You don't go to the coffee shops and cafes where you live?
Not really. But me going us hardly gonna make up for all the lost commuter trade that these establishments completely rely on
How long before we get another big variant and the entire country flips the "lockdown" switch again.

Forcing me back to work will not make me participate in any local economies. I am still taking COVID very seriously. I am vaccinated, boosted, still wearing masks and gloves everywhere. I am not making the last two years pointless by messing up now. So no, I won't go to restaurants, go to stores, go out to bars or whatever.

i feel sorry for you, that sounds like a death sentence in itself. I would honestly rather be dead than live my ‘life’ like that.
 
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4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
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Not really. But me going us hardly gonna make up for all the lost commuter trade that these establishments completely rely on

i feel sorry for you, that sounds like a death sentence in itself. I would honestly rather be dead than live my ‘life’ like that.
Lady, you can 'suffer' if it helps other people even a little bit. It's totally fine if not everything you do is for your own immediate benefit. If not going to a coffee shop or the office makes someone else's life a little better, just don't go. It doesn't have to be covid. You could spread anything to someone else.
 

DMG35

Contributor
May 27, 2021
2,268
7,134
The cost of Apple Park is irrelevant. It was a bad investment. Tim needs to cut his losses. Just like Apple wasted a lot of money on facial recognition right before the world moved to face masks they spent billions on an office right before everyone moved to WFH.

You win some, and you lose some.

The idea that people will leave always backfires because the ones willing to leave first are the top employees.

Uh in what way was it a bad investment? Because a pandemic occurred?

And you act like we are going to be in masks forever. Maybe you will be but the majority of the population won't be.

And you have zero evidence that the ones who leave first are the top employees. Nothing of what you said was fact based, only opinion, which is fine and I can respect, but its just your opinion.
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
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Uh in what way was it a bad investment? Because a pandemic occurred?

And you act like we are going to be in masks forever. Maybe you will be but the majority of the population won't be.

And you have zero evidence that the ones who leave first are the top employees. Nothing of what you said was fact based, only opinion, which is fine and I can respect, but its just your opinion.
It’s just an opinion based on historical record and logic. It might be different this time. Eventually it has to be different.

And no, we shouldn’t go back. Neither to the office or not wearing masks.
 

DMG35

Contributor
May 27, 2021
2,268
7,134
It’s just an opinion based on historical record. It might be different this time. Eventually it has to be different.

And no, we shouldn’t go back. Neither to the office or not wearing masks.

You have fun living like that in fear of a virus the rest of your life. I won't and most people won't either. But you do you and if you can find a job that will allow you to work from home 24/7 then that's great, it just won't be at Apple.
 

stiligFox

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2009
1,490
1,334
10.0.1.3
It comes down to introverted vs extroverted people I think.

As an introvert I do my best work, home alone by myself; the WFH stuff that came about because of COVID is a dream to me, and has opened up a lot of opportunities hay I didn’t have before. But I know extroverts that have grown absolutely stir crazy WFH that do much better when working directly with other people.

It should be a mixed approach; the best options for each person. I don’t think it should be forced either way.


This isn’t about the virus, honestly; I dreamed of a WFH career a decade before COVID was ever a thing.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
It comes down to introverted vs extroverted people I think.

As an introvert I do my best work, home alone by myself; the WFH stuff that came about because of COVID is a dream to me, and has opened up a lot of opportunities hay I didn’t have before. But I know extroverts that have grown absolutely stir crazy WFH that do much better when working directly with other people.

It should be a mixed approach; the best options for each person. I don’t think it should be forced either way.


This isn’t about the virus, honestly; I dreamed of a WFH career a decade before COVID was ever a thing.
Good answer. Personally, I'm a sort of extroverted introvert....I find the hassle of commuting and banality of some office interactions to be a turn off, but actually do get energised by working in a team of people in the same space. There is no doubt that in a good team, you can generate a "whole that is greater than the sum of the parts", and it's a harder to generate that energy over a video conference.

I think the mass experiment with WFH that the pandemic enforced is a silver lining. I always thought that work in IT should be at the cutting edge of remote working technology and it never was. Employers and customers still wanted "bums on seats", but they've had to rethink whether this is really necessary, when they can save a ton of cash by selling or renting those massive corporate offices and having a much smaller "working hub".

I was able to move and live overseas for 3 months last year because the entire team was remote and it didn't matter where in the world I was located - it worked really well, and I think this would have been impossible to do 2 years ago.

I will probably naturally drift back into a hybrid pattern similar to what Apple is proposing. Maybe a day per week initially and increasing with customer demand and my own routine. However, I think employees are now much more empowered to set the agenda than they were before. It now sounds quite reasonable to simply state that you'll only be in the office on certain days, and probably no-one will bat an eyelid.
 
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MBAir2010

macrumors 603
May 30, 2018
6,433
5,920
there
Yeah I’m sure it was due to remote work. iOS 7 and iOS 11 in particular were flawless.
I was just contemplating on why  could not make that perfect MacBook pro these last decades (2012 was the acme)
maybe because they never wanted or HAD to, and they new they were better than the PC laptops.
now the M1 chip laptops are the talk of the tech town,
but PC is now releasing ones that can complete with these soon
so
BACK TO WORK!

yes, i remember who ios7 was flawless and ios11 had to be because the rise in Samsung tablets being sold then.
seems to me the completion is making headway, and  needs to roll up the sleeves.
 

michaelsviews

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2007
1,482
468
New England
But wait, aren't we supposed to be cleaning up the environment ? If everyone's going back to work in there air polluting vehicles its going against what's being preached...................
 
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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,892
1,589
These threads always bring out the bootlicking toadies desperate for their corporate masters to oppress everyone else just like them because they can’t be bothered to stand up for what might actually make them happy in their own lives.
That may be a rather vocal way of saying what quite a lot of people of thinking, but I understand the sentiment.

It's no surprise that many workers are recalibrating their expectations of employment conditions and how they think it should adapt to their lives. People are starting to realise that they may have a voice and a choice - if you have saleable skills then you are in a seller's market, and should set the conditions that align to your desires, not those of the employer.
 
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B4U

macrumors 68040
Oct 11, 2012
3,582
4,017
Undisclosed location
learn to set boundaries? this is a you problem.
You must be working with respectful people.
Guess what happens when they don't get a hold of you?
It will be your manager that tries to get a hold of you within minutes because the very same individuals reached out to the manager for the most trivial things.

On the other hand, that sounded like victim-shaming.
 
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Rocko99991

macrumors 68000
Jul 25, 2017
1,574
2,191
Imagine complaining that one of the most desired employers in the world wants you to work for them in a brand new building. Replace these kids with GenX. We will be there at 8:00am sharp.
This is the result of constantly telling your child he/she is special and deserves awards constantly for just showing up.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
Lady, you can 'suffer' if it helps other people even a little bit. It's totally fine if not everything you do is for your own immediate benefit. If not going to a coffee shop or the office makes someone else's life a little better, just don't go. It doesn't have to be covid. You could spread anything to someone else.
Yep. In my mind it’s not suffering. I still spend time with family and friends in apartments and houses. Just not bars and restaurants.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,820
6,724
It comes down to introverted vs extroverted people I think.

As an introvert I do my best work, home alone by myself; the WFH stuff that came about because of COVID is a dream to me, and has opened up a lot of opportunities hay I didn’t have before. But I know extroverts that have grown absolutely stir crazy WFH that do much better when working directly with other people.

It should be a mixed approach; the best options for each person. I don’t think it should be forced either way.


This isn’t about the virus, honestly; I dreamed of a WFH career a decade before COVID was ever a thing.
It’s not fully extroverts or introverts. I used to spend hours a day chatting with people about non-work things in the office since they just came to my cubicle or ran into me in the hall. I’m an extrovert but I don’t overly socialize at work. I have timely tasks I need to get done. So do others. Be respectful to other’s workload and don’t talk about movies for two hours every day.
 

sdz

macrumors 65816
May 28, 2014
1,225
1,552
Europe/Germany
Covid may go on in some form or another far into the indefinite future. Maybe for decades. Who knows. People need to stop living in fear and hiding and live their lives again. That includes going to work.

If they can make the case that they are in particular risk, or are around family/friends who are, then that should be considered. But otherwise, get over the extreme fear and get on with your life.
Don’t tell me what I have to do mama
 
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