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NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
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681
We could all write a feature request to Apple. If we spread the word on different platforms (eg DC Rainmaker, Running Forums, ...) we could have a minimal chance that Apple does something.

Edit: submitted a feature request here https://www.apple.com/feedback/watch.html
 
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PaladinGuy

macrumors 68000
Sep 22, 2014
1,616
1,030
Interestingly, I saw on DC Rainmaker’s review of the Series 6, the gps tracking is less smoother out and fit to be more “accurate” post workout to your actual track. He said it seemed to even retroactively do the same to his previous workouts.

I don’t see this with my Series 5. Makes me wonder if they have only done this for Series 6, which seems odd.
 

rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
934
France
If you run with another app than apple workout app (work outdoors for example), you don't have the loops and huge smoothing.
You can also have corners, including with series 5.
But they have probably improved the GPS hardware, and it allows less smoothing to have a nice looking tracking.
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
Run 8 a little wobbly in one heavily dense area, but nothing to worry about.
Will end my reports now and only report back, when there are significant issues.
Battery life well... bad. Hope they fix that.
 

MJ22

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2017
591
762
Airplane mode is not sufficient. You have to switch off Bluetooth on your iPhone in Settings, not Control Center.

Is this just for LTE? I upgraded to a GPS only S6. Do I need to keep turning off Bluetooth? (DC Rainmaker seemed to indicate no.)
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
Is this just for LTE? I upgraded to a GPS only S6. Do I need to keep turning off Bluetooth? (DC Rainmaker seemed to indicate no.)

Guess this is valid for all Apple Watch models. Can you point me to the statement of DCR? Asking because I just read somewhere where he exactly stated the opposite, paraphrased: "of course I leave my iPhone at home to avoid GPS being taken from iPhone".

Edit: found it:

 

rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
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France
I have done another run today.
I run to a point and then come back.
For the forward trip, I had LTE ON and for the back trip I have set it to OFF.
It was in a place where I usually have a lot of wobbles ...
I can say the two tracks are very similar. Same distance (less than 1% difference)
I can't really say if the track is better with LTE ON or OFF. There are some (normal) small errors in both situation.
I have used built-in Apple app
So I can say there is really an improvement with watchos7 ! It's not perfect, and probably less accurate than series 6 but it seems acceptable ...
Finally !
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
So a long story comes to a good end! Thanks for working together and lets keep fingers crossed that the problem is really gone!

And as you write: it is acceptable. Together with a Stryd it is a very good combination. Waiting to get WorkoutDoors with Stryd support and then I have a good package.
 

rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
934
France
GPS watches are not perfect measurement tools, and it includes specific sportwatches like Garmin, Suunto ...
I know people who run with expensive sport watches, and they also have some strange behaviors in certain situations.
We have to accept that and have pleasure running without expecting exact measurements.
I am happy if I can run with my AW and LTE ON without enormous errors.
Like you said, maybe we have helped Apple to enhance this ... (or maybe not )
 
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BigMcGuire

Cancelled
Jan 10, 2012
9,832
14,027
I know it’s not helpful but I got an lte watch and the gps is working really well. Went on my first run with it yesterday. Glad to see you might have yours fixed!
 
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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,245
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Airplane mode is not sufficient. You have to switch off Bluetooth on your iPhone in Settings, not Control Center.
Is this just for LTE? I upgraded to a GPS only S6. Do I need to keep turning off Bluetooth? (DC Rainmaker seemed to indicate no.)
Guess this is valid for all Apple Watch models. Can you point me to the statement of DCR? Asking because I just read somewhere where he exactly stated the opposite, paraphrased: "of course I leave my iPhone at home to avoid GPS being taken from iPhone".

Edit: found it:


Let me clarify something about the iphone Airplane mode that's not necessarily obvious.

The default Airplane mode shuts off bluetooth and wifi. That will break the connection to the watch.
However, Airplane mode remembers if you've previously turned on bluetooth and/or wifi when in Airplane mode and will go back to those settings.

So... when you turn on Airplane mode bluetooth may or may not be active depending on how you had it set when you were last in Airplane mode. Once you do turn off bluetooth within Airplane mode it will remain off for future instances of Airplane mode (unless you turn it back on while in Airplane mode).

As for going to Settings->Bluetooth I don't see the point since the On/Off value there follows the Control Center setting. Try it yourself while on the Settings page.


Now with the above clarified... If you go for a run and the watch can talk to the phone, it will use the phone's GPS instead of the watch's GPS. You can either break the phone/watch connection by going into airplane mode / turning off bluetooth - or you can leave the phone behind and run with just the watch.

Also - be cautious drawing conclusions from differences between small numbers of runs on different days and different times. GPS satellites are not geosynchronous, they're in about a 12 hour orbit. Day to day, or even different times of day, will affect how many satellites are above the horizon and how high in the sky they are. This affects how accurate GPS device positioning will be -- especially if satellites are low on the horizon and their radio signals are affected by trees and building.

Nominally GPS accuracy for a phone or watch is going to be anywhere within a 16ft radius. So imagine going for a walk with a hyperactive puppy on a 16ft leash and plotting his position every so often as he finds different things to sniff and mark. That's going to be a pretty rough plot. Thus the software in the watches and such usually applies a bit of smoothing to the plots. Those smoothing algorithms can vary in how well they do.

Also note that the satellite and road maps provided by Google and so on aren't necessarily dead-on accurate. I haven't found a source saying what level of inaccuracy they have, but common sense suggests there will be some degree of inaccuracy. Perhaps enough to put your otherwise ideal GPS track on the wrong side of the road.

Generally I take GPS tracks and mapping to be a best-estimate and just not worry about bits of wonkiness here and there. I'm also not a competitive runner, so I'm not sussed if two watches show a slightly different distance or if the track shows me going through peoples yards instead of being on the sidewalk or road.

Edit - info from Apple on Airplane Mode
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
Thanks for your explanation. Sounds valid and still confusing about the airplane mode.
Strengthens my point in having a simple setting for the watch (or per app) to use built-in AW GPS or take iPhone GPS when available and case can be closed. No more fiddling necessary.
 
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rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
934
France
I agree, GPS precision is not perfect.
BUT, with watchOS6 and series 5 there was some obvious problem (not only small wobbles).
It seems Apple has improved that, and now, it seems acceptable
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
And what I understood is that iOS 14 still has the GPS accuracy problems we had with watchOS 6 on our LTE watches.
So one more argument to NOT use the iPhone GPS when running with AW.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,245
6,393
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I agree, GPS precision is not perfect.
BUT, with watchOS6 and series 5 there was some obvious problem (not only small wobbles).
It seems Apple has improved that, and now, it seems acceptable

Indeed, different hardware and software can perform quite differently. What I mentioned as nominal is what you should be able to expect if everything's going well.

A few years ago I tried out a fancy new Fenix watch, think it was the 3, and gave it right back to REI when its GPS proved itself to be pretty awful relative to the Garmin watch I already had.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,245
6,393
US
And what I understood is that iOS 14 still has the GPS accuracy problems we had with watchOS 6 on our LTE watches.
So one more argument to NOT use the iPhone GPS when running with AW.

Indeed.

Plus the issues of phone being in a pocket or belt and thus having more struggles to hear the satellite radio signals.

Personally I just leave my phone behind.
 
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NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
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Personally I just leave my phone behind.

In most cases I do also leave my phone behind. Except when I am running out of country as AW LTE still can not do roaming. Also when my favorite podcast app (Overcast) has problems replaying a podcast on the AW, which is sometimes the case.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,245
6,393
US
Except when I am running out of country as AW LTE still can not do roaming.

Yeah, though for me it's ~1000km before I'm in another country, so that doesn't occur with any regularity. :D

I typically stream Podrunner or The Way I Heard It or a couple others using the Apple podcast app on the watch. Generally does fine. I'm aware of Overcast but haven't had problems with the Apple app.
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
As our main topic is more or less closed, we can go offtopic ;-).

Never was happy with the Apple podcast app as synchronization does not work reliably for me. Overcast is perfect in that sense even when some seldom cases do not work.
 

rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
934
France
My watch remains globally accurate with LTE ON since WOS7 upgrade.
From time to time, I have some small errors, but it doesn't impact significantly the distance, so it's acceptable, you can have some glitches which every GPS watch.
This morning, I have noticed something interesting. My tracking was really perfect during all the workout, except for a small wobble. I have investigated about this wobble, and I have noticed that it has occurred exactly at the end of my podcast when my watch has downloaded the next one.
So LTE/4G activity has definitely an impact on GPS accuracy, but it has really improved with watchOS 7.
 
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rbart

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Nov 3, 2013
1,226
934
France
I don't know if it's placebo effect, but my GPS tracking seems really better since 7.1 upgrade with cellular ON.
It's difficult to really test in all conditions (lockdown in France) but I will try in next days.
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
Good news. Did no runs with LTE enabled lately and would also say that GPS tracks are better overall since 7.x and especially with LTE.
But I will give a try today.

Stay strong in France, all the best!
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
So, did a 15km run on the same course where I recorded a run without LTE last week. Well, the track overall is ok, but not as good as the GPS only run. It is a lot more "jaggy" but no glitches or so. Compared to watchOS 6 of course lightyears ahead. But we had that. Compared to watchOS 7.0.2 I do not see any difference so could well be a placebo on your side ;-).

What really impressed me is battery usage which was around 2% per km. If you scroll back in this thread, I had consumption at the beginning of watchOS 7.0 sometimes twice as much or more.
 

mk313

macrumors 68000
Feb 6, 2012
1,967
1,081
So, did a 15km run on the same course where I recorded a run without LTE last week. Well, the track overall is ok, but not as good as the GPS only run. It is a lot more "jaggy" but no glitches or so. Compared to watchOS 6 of course lightyears ahead. But we had that. Compared to watchOS 7.0.2 I do not see any difference so could well be a placebo on your side ;-).

What really impressed me is battery usage which was around 2% per km. If you scroll back in this thread, I had consumption at the beginning of watchOS 7.0 sometimes twice as much or more.

Are you streaming music/podcasts when you run. I’ve seen several posts of watches dying after less than an hour of running while streaming. It’s the reason I haven’t upgraded to watch os 7 yet. Hopefully that is fixed too
 

NME42

macrumors 65816
Sep 15, 2019
1,220
681
No I wasn’t streaming today. But did not notice such high consumption or dying watch before with watchOS 7.
 
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