Can we talk about the fanlessness

[NT1440]

I don’t get why the confusion exists. Apple silicon is so capable that they choose to distinguish product lines by the thermal capabilities of the machine. That’s an entirely different approach than the PC world, but equally as valid.

One of the *points* of the Air is that there is no fan.

 

[Saturn007]

I don't like computers that makes unnecessary noise, sure, but even with our 2015 Air noise isn't really a problem (even though it has an old Intel processor).

What do you think?

My daily workhorse is that exact 2015 MacBook Air model.

Yes, the fan rarely comes on. However, when it does — e.g., often when doing a Time Machine backup, synching i-devices, or having multiple tabs open on certain websites — the noise is jarring, irritating, and a distraction. The laptop gets noticeably warm, even slightly hot.

Keep in mind that the original Mac had no fan — and that was a treat compared to the whooshing, whishing, and droning of many IBM PCs.

By the way, you asked what we think... you're getting those thoughts, even if you don't like them.

💯 ✅ 👍🏼 Agree with Zara, 100%!

Repeatedly disagreeing and nit-picking people's responses makes it seem that you, Danne, were more interested in starting an argument than learning from others — or, accepting that there are different viewpoints than yours. Not saying that’s what you set out to do but, on initial read of your responses, that’s how it appeared! 😁

Back to your request for what we think…

I have an M2 15” MBA that I’ve barely used, but as my 13” 2015 MBA gets shorter and shorter battery life — and the one functioning USB port acts flakey and requires me to use a hub — I'm looking forward to switching over.

Besides relishing its superb battery life and functioning ports, I'm going to be thrilled to go fanless once again — and have peace and quiet when doing those tasks I mentioned.

(And, no, the fan noise has nothing to do with dust, age of laptop, etc. It's a direct result of processor intensive tasks. Yet, I experience no slow down, just bothersome noise and heat!)

One other critical observation — how bothersome fan noise is to people is highly idiosyncratic. I have very good hearing and a sensitivity to noise — years ago, returned a Mac SE 30 because of its high-pitched fan noise. So, what doesn't bother you, may well bother others!

 

[neuropsychguy]

That the Air doesn't have a fan was a major selling point for me. I passed my Air off to a family member and got a MacBook Pro (wanted something with 32 GB of RAM) but honestly rarely have the fan turn on or be noticeable. It happens with playing some games and doing some of my processing of research data, but otherwise it's silent. If Airs came with more RAM (24 GB might be sufficient for me but I sometimes use more), I'd probably go back to one. Although I love the screen and speakers on the MBP.

 

[SuperCachetes]

Design theory 101, don't overly complicate a design by adding unnecessary features.

Disadvantages of a fan:
1) Decreases structural integrity (you need holes in the design for directed vents)
2) Sucks in dust. A large point of failure of computers is dust on components, which ironically causes increase in temperature due to insulating effects. Increases maintenance cost.
3) Makes noise. Especially small high rpm fans emit in high frequencies that some people find really frustrating.
4) Another point of mechanical failure amplified by the fact it's a moving part. What price does this add to maintenance?
5) takes space including a minimum thickness that adds to a design.

6) Uses valuable power when on battery.

 

[CraigJDuffy]

Am I the only one who hates that Apple removed the fans on the MacBook Airs when they transitioned to Apple Silicon?

How could any one see it as a "feature" having no active cooling at all, what is the good in that? I only feel that people has been tricked into thinking that this is a good feature.

I don't like computers that makes unnecessary noise, sure, but even with our 2015 Air noise isn't really a problem (even though it has an old Intel processor). During light work you never hear the fan. Imagine it having a M{1,2,3}, the computer would handle much heavier work before you would notice the fan.

To me, the real reasons for Apple to remove the fan and market it as a feature are (1) forcing people to buy more than what they need (MacBook Pro) and (2) save 1 or 2 bucks in the manufacturing of these laptops.

Of course no. 1 is more important to Apple.

What do you think?

Personally, I welcome it.

Less parts to break / get filled with dust and also means I can use on a bed etc without worrying about airflow. My biggest complaint with my windows laptop is the fact it has a fan.

 

[Queen6]

6) Uses valuable power when on battery.

The Air is designed from the ground up, equally so are the MBP's and the negatives listed are beyond trivial. If you need sustained high performance an actively cooled notebook presents no issue unless it's badly designed. Latest crop of MBP's are not. The inclusion of a fan in the MBP does not negatively impact reliability or adversely effect battery by any meaningful numbers, assuming it even spools up.

I still have an old 2011 15" MBP that is utilised as a media server. It's hardly ever shutdown, once I year I open it to physically check the battery. As for dust takes years if not decades to build up to an extent to impact the cooling and the 2011's fans run 24/7.

Q-6

 

[SuperCachetes]

The Air is designed from the ground up, equally so are the MBP's and the negatives listed are beyond trivial. If you need sustained high performance an actively cooled notebook presents no issue unless it's badly designed. Latest crop of MBP's are not. The inclusion of a fan in the MBP does not negatively impact reliability or adversely effect battery by any meaningful numbers, assuming it even spools up.

I still have an old 2011 15" MBP that is utilised as a media server. It's hardly ever shutdown, once I year I open it to physically check the battery. As for dust takes years if not decades to build up to an extent to impact the cooling and the 2011's fans run 24/7.

Q-6

Attempting to mansplain over a tangential minor point is a perfect way to get on my ignore list. Cool.

Anyway, a fan motor uses power, period, and is a potential point of failure, just as G5 listed. If all of those disadvantages are "meaningless" to you, that's fine. I have had MBPs with fans, too, but I'll spare you my own superfluous anecdotal evidence.

For the record, I have an M2 MBA and love it, partially because it has no fan... for a lot of the reasons already mentioned here.

 

[Queen6]

Attempting to mansplain over a tangential minor point is a perfect way to get on my ignore list. Cool.

Anyway, a fan motor uses power, period, and is a potential point of failure, just as G5 listed. If all of those disadvantages are "meaningless" to you, that's fine. I have had MBPs with fans, too, but I'll spare you my own superfluous anecdotal evidence.

For the record, I have an M2 MBA and love it, partially because it has no fan... for a lot of the reasons already mentioned here.

Ignore away 😂 There's nothing wrong with either the current Air or MBP designs they simply serve differing audiences with neither having significant negatives...

Q-6

 

[TracerAnalog]

What a nonsensical post. The ideal laptop has no active cooling and is dead silent. The Macbook Air is darn close to perfect in my opinion. Why would anyone aspire to have any moving parts in a mobile device?? Fans are compromises…

 

[G5isAlive]

Ignore away 😂 There's nothing wrong with either the current Air or MBP designs they simply serve differing audiences with neither having significant negatives...

Q-6

You are what I call 'violently agreeing', making a point that everyone EXCEPT the OP already agrees to. NO ONE, EXCEPT THE OP is saying there is something wrong with the current Air or MBP design. So you might want to address the OP. MBA folks here have been unanimous with being fine with a fanless MBA, but agree if one needs more power such that thermal considerations become prime and need to be addressed, then heck yes design for a fan. Which Apple did. But importantly, do expect to pay for the additional engineering design, which is what Apple did, charge more. The OP is arguing that the MBA should get the fan at no extra price, that it needs the fan. Do you agree with that?

 

[Newton1701]

You’re right, every computing device needs a fan. My next iPad, iPhone and Apple Watch better have fans also. Apple’s chips are so power hungry and get so hot, what are they thinking? /s

 

[Queen6]

You are what I call 'violently agreeing', making a point that everyone EXCEPT the OP already agrees to. NO ONE, EXCEPT THE OP is saying there is something wrong with the current Air or MBP design. So you might want to address the OP. MBA folks here have been unanimous with being fine with a fanless MBA, but agree if one needs more power such that thermal considerations become prime and need to be addressed, then heck yes design for a fan. Which Apple did. But importantly, do expect to pay for the additional engineering design, which is what Apple did, charge more. The OP is arguing that the MBA should get the fan at no extra price, that it needs the fan. Do you agree with that?

LOL never said the Air should have a fan as there are options in place nor are they detrimental to those notebooks in any significant manner.

Q-6

 

[apparatchik]

Apple has never competed in price, though Macs certainly have not just lower TCO's but the biggest resell value, so you might argue they have the best value in the industry all things considered.

But then again, if you really value fans and love both, computers with fans and lower prices, there are plenty of sub $1K options of PC laptops to choose from.

Truth is, adjusted for inflation, Macs have never been more affordable, performant, durable, etc.

 

[NoGood@Usernames]

You’re right, every computing device needs a fan. My next iPad, iPhone and Apple Watch better have fans also. Apple’s chips are so power hungry and get so hot, what are they thinking? /s

Ooo, I bet a fan will be part of the big Watch Series 10 design updates! Can’t wait, that’s gonna be awesome!

I’m surprised Gurman hasn’t leaked that yet! 😂



/s in case I really needed it…

 

[joeblow7777]

And no, that analogy is just silly. It's not like the laptop would cost 1000 bucks more or be twice the size if there was a small fan inside. A more precise analogy would be that you buy a "lightweight" motorcycle which can only be driven short distances since the manufacturer has made it "radiator free". It's a perfectly capable bike but since the manufacturer want you to pay for their more expensive bikes, they have decided to hamper it.

I don't really think that that's a good analogy either. You still see lacking a fan as a "hampering" of the product to make the more expensive model even better in comparison. You've missed my point that I and others consider the lack of a fan to be a plus. The minimalist form factor including lack of a fan is actually one of the reasons I chose an Air over the Pro. The price difference doesn't really matter to me, and either can easily handle my workload.

 

[TSE]

I love that my Air doesn't have a fan. I don't want the noise. I don't want the added energy costs. And I am a professional designer who works on my computer all day and has no issues in performance.

 

[Zaydax333]

Design theory 101, don't overly complicate a design by adding unnecessary features.

Disadvantages of a fan:
1) Decreases structural integrity (you need holes in the design for directed vents)
2) Sucks in dust. A large point of failure of computers is dust on components, which ironically causes increase in temperature due to insulating effects. Increases maintenance cost.
3) Makes noise. Especially small high rpm fans emit in high frequencies that some people find really frustrating.
4) Another point of mechanical failure amplified by the fact it's a moving part. What price does this add to maintenance?
5) takes space including a minimum thickness that adds to a design.
EDIT: 6) draws power on a design maximized for battery life.

Advantages of a fan:
1) can partially overcome bad thermal designs by providing active cooling, or at least until it either a) breaks down because its a mechanical part, or b) pulls in too much dust.

Question is, why would you have a fan if you don't need one?!

For all those reasons, I really LOVE that my MBA 15 doesn't have a fan. I never have to worry about it being distracting. And it's why I use my MBA 15 preferably over my MBP M3 Max. If I don't need the power, I appreciate the weight and silence.

Sorry, it seems you don't like the fact that if you need more, you have to pay more. Designing in a fan imposes constraints in minimum width, and structural issues, not to mention putting in a reliable mechanical part. Costs money. You want it, pay for it, but don't pass on the cost to those that don't need or want it.

No free lunches at Apple.

100% this.

OP your view is getting skewed by all these reviews running fancy benchmarks back to back to really show the max limits of the chip. They're like oh no thermal throttling! But the reality is most people buying the Air aren't going to be running those kinds of workloads and the other advantages listed by G5isAlive are better for that audience.

 

[G5isAlive]

LOL never said the Air should have a fan as there are options in place nor are they detrimental to those notebooks in any significant manner.

Q-6

well friend that is the topic of discussion for this thread lol...MBA , fan or not? but okay.. so noted.

 

[SuperCachetes]

"My $25,000 Volkswagen Jetta doesn't have any towing capacity! VW is forcing people to step up to the $40,000 Atlas! It's a conspiracy!"

 

[za9ra22]

"My $25,000 Volkswagen Jetta doesn't have any towing capacity! VW is forcing people to step up to the $40,000 Atlas! It's a conspiracy!"

Or, "My $120 Chuwi laptop has a fan, so there can't be any reason but Apple being cheap that they don't put one in a computer 10 times the price."

Or, more on your topic... "My VW Jetta has a water cooled engine, so that air-cooled Porsche 911 must really be pretty limited."

 

[ThomasJL]

Am I the only one who hates that Apple removed the fans on the MacBook Airs when they transitioned to Apple Silicon?

How could any one see it as a "feature" having no active cooling at all, what is the good in that? I only feel that people has been tricked into thinking that this is a good feature.

I don't like computers that makes unnecessary noise, sure, but even with our 2015 Air noise isn't really a problem (even though it has an old Intel processor). During light work you never hear the fan. Imagine it having a M{1,2,3}, the computer would handle much heavier work before you would notice the fan.

To me, the real reasons for Apple to remove the fan and market it as a feature are (1) forcing people to buy more than what they need (MacBook Pro) and (2) save 1 or 2 bucks in the manufacturing of these laptops.

Of course no. 1 is more important to Apple.

What do you think?

Of course Tim Cook did it to save a few bucks on manufacturing. He's a soulless MBA degree holding beancounter. He aims to give consumers as little as possible up to the point where enough of them will still buy.

 

[joeblow7777]

Another way of looking at this is that a fan is not a "feature" but a rather a compromise. No device that can get away with not having a fan is going to have one. The fact that the M-series MBAs can perform at the level that they do with no fan is an engineering feat, not a flaw.

 

[6749974]

The person buying an Air doesn't sustain the CPU for more than a minute—or when they do—those occasions are far and few in between. Therefore throttling is rarely if ever a consideration.

• The M3 Air is 2x faster than the 2019 16-inch Intel MacBook Pro.
• And when throttling, the M3 Air is 1.8x faster than the 2019 16-inch Intel MacBook Pro.

So for the MacBook Air user—throttling isn't an issue—because 99% of the time its 2-7x faster than our previous laptop—and the other 1% of the time it's 1.8-7x faster than our previous laptop. It's a wash.

Also—

If you're precious about "optimizing" sustained processing, then you would buy the M3 Pro or M3 Max chip device—not the M3 device—because M3 Pro/Max chips have all those extra CPU/GPU cores for sustained processing—hence those require active cooling to support the higher wattage.

But if you're somehow caught in some Twilight Zone-like "M3 sustained processing" paradox, you can buy the M3 chip in a MacBook Pro with a single fan.

But leave MacBook Air alone!

 

[h.gilbert]

I like that there's no fan. Makes it lighter, less to clean, and less to go wrong. I don't need sustained performance otherwise I'd've gone Pro.

I keep my laptops for a long time and I always have to clean the fans now and again. Plus, from my experience, fans tend to cause issues. In my 2016 Pro they started clicking. And around half of my laptops before that had fan issues.

 

[uller6]

Ok! Didn't know the 12-inch had passive cooling, ut must've been heavily affected by throttling

But last part is what I mean, of course you can buy a laptop with a fan, Apple are so kind to offer you that, but for a price that is next level.


Yeah, I completely understand you if you never do anything that pushes the CPU or GPU. Of course the laptop will be nice and cool

And no, that analogy is just silly. It's not like the laptop would cost 1000 bucks more or be twice the size if there was a small fan inside. A more precise analogy would be that you buy a "lightweight" motorcycle which can only be driven short distances since the manufacturer has made it "radiator free". It's a perfectly capable bike but since the manufacturer want you to pay for their more expensive bikes, they have decided to hamper it.


Sure, no argument there. Would they be unhappy if it had a fan?


It is not good design if heat lowers the performance of the device. Even the M1 Air throttled heavily under load, especially with high GPU usage. And it gets so hot that it is not comfortable to touch.

The performance hit is even bigger with the M2 and M3.

The sustained performance of the fanless air is only reduced ~10% without a fan under long term load. I don’t slam my computers that hard all the time, and I love a completely silent machine without a fan. I have an M3 pro and M2 air and I honestly don’t even notice the difference in speed most of the time (I do notice the RAM difference between 16 gb and 48 gb a lot more). Neither machine gets hot. The hottest I’ve ever gotten the M2 air is 38C while running everything I need for work. I’m obviously not CPU limited in any way, and the air is a dream machine.

Design and engineering always involve tradeoffs, but personally I think Apple nailed the new M2/M3 airs. Best machine they’ve ever made. I just wish they could hold more ram.