Did the M2 MBA solve the eyestrain/headache issue for you?

[Cadrian]

You're sure Night Shift was not on in that unit?

Oh yeah definitely sure. Auto brightness and lower brightness on battery were off on both. Seriously did not want there to be a difference since it was my replacement unit and I could have dealt with the warmer tones but the panel actually hurt my eyes whereas the better unit is like reading on a flicker free iPad (ie very good for PWM sensitive folks).

I compared them both side to side for a while in different lighting and with different things on screen and there is a clear difference to my eyes, not only does the original screen just look better it also does not hurt my eyes which is awesome because I've owned 4 MacBooks in the last 3 years and they all were difficult to work and read on.

 

[lord_kelvin]

Oh yeah definitely sure. Auto brightness and lower brightness on battery were off on both. Seriously did not want there to be a difference since it was my replacement unit and I could have dealt with the warmer tones but the panel actually hurt my eyes whereas the better unit is like reading on a flicker free iPad (ie very good for PWM sensitive folks).

I compared them both side to side for a while in different lighting and with different things on screen and there is a clear difference to my eyes, not only does the original screen just look better it also does not hurt my eyes which is awesome because I've owned 4 MacBooks in the last 3 years and they all were difficult to work and read on.

Could you check if the manufacturers and/or models of the screens are the same? On my 2015 Pro running Monterey I can see it when I try to edit the default colour profile under the tag "mmod". I'm not sure, though, if this shows the actual manufacturer and model of the screen, or maybe just something that is encoded in the profile.

 

[ghanwani]

It’s sad if you have to roll the dice to get a panel that works.

 

[Cadrian]

Could you check if the manufacturers and/or models of the screens are the same? On my 2015 Pro running Monterey I can see it when I try to edit the default colour profile under the tag "mmod". I'm not sure, though, if this shows the actual manufacturer and model of the screen, or maybe just something that is encoded in the profile.

They are exactly the same. I attached a photo of the differences on a white background. I know panels vary in warmth and coolness. Maybe some would prefer the one on the right, but for some reason I find it harder on the eyes and I'm not sure why.

 

[lord_kelvin]

They are exactly the same.

Thanks for checking. It sucks then. I have two more requests, if that's fine with you.

1. There's someone on ledstrain.org who shot a couple of slow-motion (240 fps) videos with their iPhone that show some kind of flicker on these panels. Could you maybe try to replicate it? Here's the link for reference: https://ledstrain.org/d/1782-videos-of-macbook-air-m2-flickering

2. When you change the brightness of these panels, do you see any difference in speed of going between steps? When I played with it in a shop, it was clear to me that below ~50% brightness the changes were faster (more abrupt) than above ~50%. It was also pretty much the same as what I saw on M1 MacBook Air. In my head this was explained by PWM being used below 50%.

 

[Cadrian]

Thanks for checking. It sucks then. I have two more requests, if that's fine with you.

1. There's someone on ledstrain.org who shot a couple of slow-motion (240 fps) videos with their iPhone that show some kind of flicker on these panels. Could you maybe try to replicate it? Here's the link for reference: https://ledstrain.org/d/1782-videos-of-macbook-air-m2-flickering

2. When you change the brightness of these panels, do you see any difference in speed of going between steps? When I played with it in a shop, it was clear to me that below ~50% brightness the changes were faster (more abrupt) than above ~50%. It was also pretty much the same as what I saw on M1 MacBook Air. In my head this was explained by PWM being used below 50%.

I just recorded a couple quick videos and I don't see any flickering in 240 fps at any brightness level. Definitely not like in the video you linked. It may just be that I'm not used to a more yellowy screen (my m1 air is more reddish/blue as well). Perhaps the contrast is just worse on that particular panel as well I don't know.

The thing is if they used pwm at any brightness I would most likely have an issue with the midnight color, which I don't. It is way better than the 14 and 16" pros for me. This is just speculation but maybe flickering in shops can be due to fluorescent lighting reflecting off the screen causing a flicker. Since fluorescents flicker..

I also tried testing it with that monkey type website he was on and I could make out a faint flicker. I also tried it with my super old 2012 retina MBP which has a suuuuper comfy screen and it did the same thing. So IMO it is how the grey background interacts with the camera somehow. I doubt it's real flickering since it doesn't happen on other pages I tried including white.

 

[lord_kelvin]

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest. It seems like there's some lottery going on, but it's not clear how to easily detect which panel you have without having the other one next to it.

Also, you mentioned the 2012 retina MBP. Do you notice any difference between the M2 and the old retina?

 

[Cadrian]

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest. It seems like there's some lottery going on, but it's not clear how to easily detect which panel you have without having the other one next to it.

Also, you mentioned the 2012 retina MBP. Do you notice any difference between the M2 and the old retina?

I haven't really used it in a long time but I always liked that screen. I thought it was actually better than my m1 air in a lot of ways, but not the M2. The m2 is better but they both have clearer text in the sense that I don't get that strange fuzziness or vibrating text that's hard to focus on (guessing pwm/dithering related). Hope this helps.

 

[lord_kelvin]

Thanks again, it definitely helps. 👍

 

[IJBrekke]

As a further update, I returned the M2 Air and purchased an M1 MacBook Pro, the same model I used previously through my work. Zero issues, it is much more similar to the 2017 15” Pro I still own.

So, my final ranking of screen preference:

1. 2017 15” Pro (still the best overall)
2. M1 MacBook Pro (slightly warmer tint, no strain issues)
3. My wife’s M1 Air (haven’t used for long stretches, but appears similar)


BIG gap


4. M1X 14” Pro (pinching feeling between my eyebrows, general fatigue)
5. M2 Air (actual dizziness and disorientation)

The M1 Pro is not the computer I wanted, but it’s fine. It’s a nice tool. We are fortunate to have several choices that will get the job done.

 

[0906742]

I also tried testing it with that monkey type website he was on and I could make out a faint flicker. I also tried it with my super old 2012 retina MBP which has a suuuuper comfy screen and it did the same thing. So IMO it is how the grey background interacts with the camera somehow. I doubt it's real flickering since it doesn't happen on other pages I tried including white.

Not sure what you mean by "monkey type website" but for testing issues like this, I'd rather use actual test patterns with solid gray at different levels (like 20, 40, 60%). White should not flicker in that test anyway and possible shimmering, if it is there should be seen with naked eye if there is any of that, and also to rule out possible camera induced issues (in any case when using camera it would be better to do in a dark room to prevent from lights to interfere).

 

[Cadrian]

Not sure what you mean by "monkey type website" but for testing issues like this, I'd rather use actual test patterns with solid gray at different levels (like 20, 40, 60%). White should not flicker in that test anyway and possible shimmering, if it is there should be seen with naked eye if there is any of that, and also to rule out possible camera induced issues (in any case when using camera it would be better to do in a dark room to prevent from lights to interfere).

I mean the website they did the test on had a grey background so I did it on that website too. I saw flickering where I did not when switching to other websites. It was done in a dark room. The thing is it "flickered" even on my 2012 rMBP and I know 100% that screen does not flicker at all, so I think what some people are picking up on in some of their tests isn't real flickering but some kind of camera/lighting anomaly or to do with colors on the screen.

 

[0906742]

I mean the website they did the test on had a grey background so I did it on that website too. I saw flickering where I did not when switching to other websites.

I'd avoid using that for a test and rather try test patterns.

It was done in a dark room.

OK, good so that interference is not involved then.

The thing is it "flickered" even on my 2012 rMBP and I know 100% that screen does not flicker at all, so I think what some people are picking up on in some of their tests isn't real flickering but some kind of camera/lighting anomaly or to do with colors on the screen.

That is possible, there are some experienced guys on that forum too, but the point is that this shimmering should be possible to evaluate naked eye if it is there or not. But do not use any website, it is another unknown variable, use test patterns if you want to be sure. It is not that uncommon to displays have some level of shimmering type effect in this test if looking hard enough, but if it is as bad to naked eye as in those videos, it is not good. For example my iPad Air 5 has some shimmering, not too bad but I see it when looking for it in test patterns.

 

[donatas_s]

Looking at the votes, it looks like those with eye strain problem no longer use macs!

There is also one assumption in this - that apple products are 100 percent consistent, meaning that tested LCD panel will be exactly the same on all product models. Is this really a case? I personally not sure, even if its apple brand.

 

[donatas_s]

To everyone who is looking for a solution to eye strain, here is what helped me. System Preferences - Accessibility - Display > check the box Reduce Transparency (check Increase Contrast for even better result). Then in regular display settings turn on True Tone. Adjust the brightness setting to 70-80% and make resolution Scaled (system preferences - display). I hope it will help you too!

No, settings will give you an illusion of a fix. There is some really damaging stuff going on in these panels, and could can change to pretty much all black, it still gives eye strains more than other comparable devices.

 

[donatas_s]

Thanks for checking. It sucks then. I have two more requests, if that's fine with you.

1. There's someone on ledstrain.org who shot a couple of slow-motion (240 fps) videos with their iPhone that show some kind of flicker on these panels. Could you maybe try to replicate it? Here's the link for reference: https://ledstrain.org/d/1782-videos-of-macbook-air-m2-flickering

2. When you change the brightness of these panels, do you see any difference in speed of going between steps? When I played with it in a shop, it was clear to me that below ~50% brightness the changes were faster (more abrupt) than above ~50%. It was also pretty much the same as what I saw on M1 MacBook Air. In my head this was explained by PWM being used below 50%.

Probably need to add the fact that whether you are on battery or not will also affect this, since I think flicker helps to reduce battery drain. Folks, I think I'm coming to a conclusion with these products that is based on actual evidence - want portable laptop from apple, get pre-retina model with glowing logo. I do not know how PWM department looks there, nor temporal dithering, I assume both are present in these old models, but it seams like people are still getting less eye strain from these devices. Maybe its the fact that screens got better, our eyes now focus on small little details, so our eyes got super sensitive to those types of flickers.

 

[transphasic]

Super bummed to update and say that the M2 Air is even worse than the 14” Pro for me. The Pro gave me a pinching feeling between my eyebrows and I found myself trying to turn down the brightness lower and lower, but the Air actually makes me dizzy after about 20 minutes.

There’s something going on with these displays that is different, and likely Apple only knows why at this point. Returning to my 2017 15” Pro is instant relief, and previously I used an M1 13” Pro from work with no issues. It’s a huge disappointment to find the two best computers for my personal use basically unusable.

Before anyone asks, I tried: different display calibrations, all the accessibility options, disabling True Tone and auto brightness, moving to different rooms of the house, and disabled font smoothing. None fixed it.

Someone on LEDstrain.org compared these symptoms to trying to stare into a flashlight for too long. That’s exactly how both of these displays make me feel. They seem harsh to the eyes.

I have a MBP and have LONG kept all of my TVs and computer monitors VERY low in brightness, maybe at 5% or so.

I get severe ocular migraines from time to time and cannot tolerate bright screens, rooms or lighting. Even at night driving, I have to be careful about looking into the headlights of oncoming traffic and/or the red lights of cars in front of me lest it trigger symptoms.

I personally cannot fathom how people can use a monitor with its brightness setting turned up so high as you all do, probably not even healthy to do so, but I am not an eye doctor.

 

[asus389]

Curious if MacOS Ventura has changed anything for anyone with these models? That shimmering looks to me like temporal dithering, it seems to be worse in OS since Big Sur, but I haven't (or don't really know how to) test it.

 

[ghanwani]

Curious if MacOS Ventura has changed anything for anyone with these models? That shimmering looks to me like temporal dithering, it seems to be worse in OS since Big Sur, but I haven't (or don't really know how to) test it.

Here's some info I put together a while back:

In some of the forums, it was suggested that SwitchResX is an app that can be used to disable temporal dithering by setting the display to render millions of colors rather than billions of colors which is the default.

Another useful tool for checking various aspects of displays such as pixel inversion is the Lagom LCD monitor test pages. Testing side by side with a Dell XPS, the M1 MacBook Air showed noticeably more flicker.

Iris is another tool attempts to get around PWM with laptops by using an app to control brightness and filtering colors in a way that makes the display experience easy on the eyes.

 

[donatas_s]

I have a MBP and have LONG kept all of my TVs and computer monitors VERY low in brightness, maybe at 5% or so.

I get severe ocular migraines from time to time and cannot tolerate bright screens, rooms or lighting. Even at night driving, I have to be careful about looking into the headlights of oncoming traffic and/or the red lights of cars in front of me lest it trigger symptoms.

I personally cannot fathom how people can use a monitor with its brightness setting turned up so high as you all do, probably not even healthy to do so, but I am not an eye doctor.

I have tried all of them, except iris. SwitchResX does not allow for me on macbook air m1 to change color bits, but then notebook check said - there is no temporal dithering on macbook air m1. At the same time they said macbook air m2 does not use PWM, which happened to be false as some already tested. So I think apple, just like other brands, not always is able to maintain supply consistency, I was already thinking about replacing apple macbook air m1 screen with custom one, but I doubt it is possible knowing that apple might prevent mac os from booting if non standard device is detected.

 

[Micayou09]

After testing the M2 for 14 days, I returned it. More bearable than other apple computers I've tested recently, but not comfortable enough to keep it on. Symptoms: sore eyes and stomach ache like car sickness.


So I decided to drop Apple, and see if I can find a machine that won't make you sick... Maybe an XPS...

 

[Technerd108]

After testing the M2 for 14 days, I returned it. More bearable than other apple computers I've tested recently, but not comfortable enough to keep it on. Symptoms: sore eyes and stomach ache like car sickness.


So I decided to drop Apple, and see if I can find a machine that won't make you sick... Maybe an XPS...

That is too bad. Sorry to hear that.

I am not sure why windows devices would be different except for the fact you have a much wider choice of hardware vendors.

I think the problem for most OEM's in general is outsourcing their manufacturing to countries and factories that make things as cheap as possible and often time bend the rules and standards of manufacturing.

I bought a 14" Lenovo laptop and a 16". Both were on sale and I wanted to see which I liked better. The 16" had a creaking case and 14" had a yellow tint to the screen which looked terrible. They were the exact same model and specs except for the size. I returned both and got another 14" and the screen was fine and case was solid. It is like the quality control is a thing of the past. They run the manufacturing line as fast as possible to churn out as many devices as possible and if there is a defect they just package it up to sell.

What I am trying to say is with Apple and every major OEM there is a lot of variance between the exact same models. So sometimes you have to return a couple units until you get a good one.

Buying an XPS might be a better choice as Dell is probably not using Foxconn to build their devices but it seems to be a lottery these days on if your device will not have some defect.

 

[Micayou09]

That is too bad. Sorry to hear that.

I am not sure why windows devices would be different except for the fact you have a much wider choice of hardware vendors.

I think the problem for most OEM's in general is outsourcing their manufacturing to countries and factories that make things as cheap as possible and often time bend the rules and standards of manufacturing.

I bought a 14" Lenovo laptop and a 16". Both were on sale and I wanted to see which I liked better. The 16" had a creaking case and 14" had a yellow tint to the screen which looked terrible. They were the exact same model and specs except for the size. I returned both and got another 14" and the screen was fine and case was solid. It is like the quality control is a thing of the past. They run the manufacturing line as fast as possible to churn out as many devices as possible and if there is a defect they just package it up to sell.

What I am trying to say is with Apple and every major OEM there is a lot of variance between the exact same models. So sometimes you have to return a couple units until you get a good one.

Buying an XPS might be a better choice as Dell is probably not using Foxconn to build their devices but it seems to be a lottery these days on if your device will not have some defect.

The windows computer I use for work is more bearable. When I use on an external screen, I have no problem.


For my part I have the impression that at Apple the PWM is not the only problem. I also have the impression that in my case the OS also plays (in particular textures, effects, and movement). Each case is different...


I love Apple. It was my end-of-study Master's subject. I had almost all of their products until 2015. My goal is not to speak ill of the brand, because when you can use their products, they are extraordinary. But sometimes, I wonder why we absolutely insist on using equipment that makes us sick, and whose long-term effects we don't know...


For my part, I can still use a windows PC, but impossible to use most of the current smartphones that I have been able to test... Nevertheless, I consider myself lucky when I hear the comments of other people who are even sensitive to LED bulbs that equip their workplace...

 

[Walker Paul]

It's not about the PWM at all. It mostly about IPS screen, all the macbook air with TFT led (2017 and before) won't cause eye strain, you can sleep after using the laptop, it's not about PWM, do you have problem with iphone? it's just 240 HZ 99% srgb.
SVA cause least eye strain, oled, amoled don't cause eye strain, if you don't have problem with any new iphone, then it's not PWM. All IPS have similar feeling like eye strain, headache, can't sleep after use, some IPS screen laptop also make your face hot, this could only be the result of strong light, not any other. LG IPS is a very bad technic, it cause eye strain to some people, it make all people can't sleep after use it.

 

[Technerd108]

It's not about the PWM at all. It mostly about IPS screen, all the macbook air with TFT led (2017 and before) won't cause eye strain, you can sleep after using the laptop, it's not about PWM, do you have problem with iphone? it's just 240 HZ 99% srgb.
SVA cause least eye strain, oled, amoled don't cause eye strain, if you don't have problem with any new iphone, then it's not PWM. All IPS have similar feeling like eye strain, headache, can't sleep after use, some IPS screen laptop also make your face hot, this could only be the result of strong light, not any other. LG IPS is a very bad technic, it cause eye strain to some people, it make all people can't sleep after use it.

Do you have any references about why IPS causes eye strain. I would be interested to learn more. I often wondered why Samsung still uses tft screens on their tablets including high end models? Some people complain about eye strain specifically with OLED too? Why would people complain about OLED and not IPS screens more frequently and that is related to flicker?

Also is the sleep disturbance linked to blue light not screen technology as even older TFT and SVA screens with high blue light all caused sleep disturbance when viewing late at night by disrupting circadian rithym?