Don't forget... Windows 10 is still Windows!

[PeterJP]

I reinstalled my mac once and it cleared up lots of disk space - but it didn't go any smoother. It was perfectly fine before and perfectly fine after, struggling with the same things (VMs, MS apps, ...) and not struggling with the same things as before (browsing, Apple office apps, ...)

As for Windows forcing updates - it's the only thing they can do. They have literally millions of "supported" configurations: hundreds of GPUs, tens of CPUs, tens of motherboards, tens of other TYPES of peripherals (RAID, Ethernet, BlueTooth, game controlers, sound cards, ...). If you then also have a couple of hundred versions of the OS, then it's just entirely unsupportable. I don't disagree with the choice they made. But it would be very helpful if they cleaned up their update system...

 

[derekamoss]

The bi-annual updates can take longer, I just installed version 2004 (May update) and while I didn't time it, I think it the process was north of 30 minutes.

They have done a lot of refining on the updates. Now they do a lot more during the download and install process in windows update itself so when it comes to require a reboot, it should be much quicker with the blue installing updates screen and back to ready. I know for me its taken at least 1/4th out of the not being able to interact portion.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I'm gonna disagree with the thesis of this thread. The only crap Macs you can buy are the ones with much less RAM than is comfortable and future-proof and an SSD smaller than is comfortable. The amount of PCs that you can buy that are crap is proportionately bigger, which means that there are METRIC TONS more bad options out there.

Any consumer-focused Dell laptop, for instance, is crap, with the exception of SOME XPS models. XPS is a line that can either be incredible or as garbage as any Inspiron, depending on the generation.

The average Dell Latitude 5000 or 7000, on the other hand, series compares well to the current Intel 13" MacBook Pros. The Intel graphics option is usually a bit faster on the Mac, but since we're not talking about machines designed for graphically intensive workflows anyway, the difference is nominal. The hardware quality is pretty stellar.

Similarly, most HP EliteBooks compare well with 13" MacBook Pros as well and are a night and day difference better than most consumer HP laptops. The EliteBooks use a unibody design and a trackpad that you could easily mistake as coming from the pre-Force-Touch unibody and Retina MacBook Pros. In the case of either the EliteBook or the Latitude, you have the option of 13", 14", and 15" screen sizes, not just 13".

I wish I could add Lenovo ThinkPads to this list, but, in light of many reliability issues, especially with Thunderbolt 3 models, I'd say maybe avoid Lenovo for a bit in general.

If I take any of the aforementioned business class laptops, my experience with installing Windows 10 and drivers is about as much of a breeze as installing any OS really is. It's smooth, it runs reliably. I have zero issues.

Similarly, if I buy a high-end Asus consumer laptop, or even a gamer laptop, I will not have issues with my PC. Same goes for building it yourself. These require more work and effort to do and set up correctly, but it's very doable and what you're left with is still a smooth user experience.

However, if you go out and buy a $300 computer running Windows 10 Home on a 1.7GHz low-end AMD APU with only 4GB of RAM and a 64GB eMMC SSD, you're gonna have a bad time. That won't be Windows 10's fault. That'll be your fault for buying a computer that had no business being anything other than a Chromebook.

 

[ian87w]

What I would love Microsoft do is to make the way Windows 10 works in enterprise to be available for Home users, at least for Office 365 Home users. The family admin can setup up a policy for new device registration, and whoever in the family with a new device logged in with the registered MS account, it will auto setup a clean(er) Windows on the device.

 

[maflynn]

The family admin can setup up a policy

I can pretty much guarantee that 99.9% of consumers would not want to deal with group policies, or having a "family admin".

 

[ian87w]

I can pretty much guarantee that 99.9% of consumers would not want to deal with group policies, or having a "family admin".

True, but maybe have that option available. Imagine the ease of having a clean Windows by simply logging in, instead of having to clean up new PCs or install every single time.

 

[maflynn]

clean up new PCs or install every single time.

What do you have to clean up? I'm not sure what work is needed after you install an app, or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[ian87w]

What do you have to clean up? I'm not sure what work is needed after you install an app, or am I misunderstanding you?

On consumer Windows, every Windows 10 install (be it Home or Pro) will have pre-installed entertainment/games apps (from Microsoft themselves), in addition to whatever the OEMs added. These things not only show a messy start menu, they're just bloat. And don't get me started on those McAfee stuff.

Imagine if Microsoft provide a cloud domain service for consumers (like what they offer for Microsoft 365 Business/Office 365 Business). This means when I have a brand new device, I can simply log in with my Microsoft account to the, let's say, "family domain," have Windows 10 clean itself up during the first login per the policy set up beforehand, instead of having to do it manually or do a refresh.

 

[maflynn]

instead of having to do it manually or do a refresh.

So you're wanting MS to allow you to basically circumvent their (or OEM's) attempt to add software? That won't really be something they'd be open too.

I would recommend instead, find a maker that doesn't add bloatware. My Razer only came with synapse, and Surface products are mostly clean.

This means when I have a brand new device

I can see this in the enterprise because they generally have a single image and do lots of computers at once, the consumer's buying habits are much much different and most people will only buy a computer once every few years - the problem you're describing isn't a problem for consumers.

Good luck with your desire to manage your computers at home, but I really don't think MS do what you ask

 

[ian87w]

So you're wanting MS to allow you to basically circumvent their (or OEM's) attempt to add software? That won't really be something they'd be open too.

I would recommend instead, find a maker that doesn't add bloatware. My Razer only came with synapse, and Surface products are mostly clean.


I can see this in the enterprise because they generally have a single image and do lots of computers at once, the consumer's buying habits are much much different and most people will only buy a computer once every few years - the problem you're describing isn't a problem for consumers.

Good luck with your desire to manage your computers at home, but I really don't think MS do what you ask

Microsoft doesn't sell Surfaces in my country.

This is a feature Microsoft themselves provided on their Microsoft 365 Business services. You don't need to have a single image. You simply set up your company's domain and policy, any Windows 10 machines that log in with the registered username will have that Windows 10 set itself up according to the set policy.

As for circumventing OEMs, Microsoft themselves already put the feature called Fresh Start in Windows 10. The difference is that with Fresh Start, Windows 10 is downloading a fresh ISO first. The method I mentioned made things much easier and faster. Microsoft could offer this as a paid service as part of their Microsoft 365 Home if they don't want to upset the OEMs.

Finally, this is just a discussion. I'm just sounding what would be great for users if Microsoft could copy this feature from their enterprise customers to consumers. Not losing sleep nor going mad at Microsoft about it.

 

[pshufd]

I'm gonna disagree with the thesis of this thread. The only crap Macs you can buy are the ones with much less RAM than is comfortable and future-proof and an SSD smaller than is comfortable. The amount of PCs that you can buy that are crap is proportionately bigger, which means that there are METRIC TONS more bad options out there.

Any consumer-focused Dell laptop, for instance, is crap, with the exception of SOME XPS models. XPS is a line that can either be incredible or as garbage as any Inspiron, depending on the generation.

The average Dell Latitude 5000 or 7000, on the other hand, series compares well to the current Intel 13" MacBook Pros. The Intel graphics option is usually a bit faster on the Mac, but since we're not talking about machines designed for graphically intensive workflows anyway, the difference is nominal. The hardware quality is pretty stellar.

Similarly, most HP EliteBooks compare well with 13" MacBook Pros as well and are a night and day difference better than most consumer HP laptops. The EliteBooks use a unibody design and a trackpad that you could easily mistake as coming from the pre-Force-Touch unibody and Retina MacBook Pros. In the case of either the EliteBook or the Latitude, you have the option of 13", 14", and 15" screen sizes, not just 13".

I wish I could add Lenovo ThinkPads to this list, but, in light of many reliability issues, especially with Thunderbolt 3 models, I'd say maybe avoid Lenovo for a bit in general.

If I take any of the aforementioned business class laptops, my experience with installing Windows 10 and drivers is about as much of a breeze as installing any OS really is. It's smooth, it runs reliably. I have zero issues.

Similarly, if I buy a high-end Asus consumer laptop, or even a gamer laptop, I will not have issues with my PC. Same goes for building it yourself. These require more work and effort to do and set up correctly, but it's very doable and what you're left with is still a smooth user experience.

However, if you go out and buy a $300 computer running Windows 10 Home on a 1.7GHz low-end AMD APU with only 4GB of RAM and a 64GB eMMC SSD, you're gonna have a bad time. That won't be Windows 10's fault. That'll be your fault for buying a computer that had no business being anything other than a Chromebook.

I've done a lot of experiments with older hardware with Hackintosh, macOS virtual machines, macOS native and Windows 10 native. My findings are that Windows is more efficient than macOS. You can still run Windows 10 reasonably well on very old hardware but you need newer hardware to run the latest versions of macOS. I think that there's an exception for the Mac Pro as you can upgrade the CPUs and RAM. But that's become a lot more difficult after the Retina MacBook Pros came out.

HP went down the tubes in quality around 2004.

I'm typing this on a 2008 Dell Studio XPS 435mt. It does a better job at my personal workloads than the 2014 MacBook Pro 15 and even the 2015 MacBook Pro 15. It's quite a remarkable machine. The Single-Core and Multi-Core Geekbench 5 scores are quite a bit lower than modern systems but it runs my applications quite well and my CPU is never taxed. It also runs quietly - I have to run 150 CFM fans to keep my MacBook Pros cool under load.

Dell 2008 Studio XPS Specs:

450 Watt PSU (replaced the stock when I got random crashes)
Intel Nehalem i7-920
GeForce 1030
Dell 4K 28 inch monitor
48 GB RAM (I suspect I could put in 96 but 16 GB DDR3 is expensive)
240 GB Crucial SSD
1 TB WD HDD (2 TB Crucial SSD on the way to replace it)
Inateck USB 3.0 PCIe card
7-in-1 card reader
Lots of ports
Gigabit Ethernet

I bought two of these used for $580 each in 2008.

What I dislike about Windows is the variance in UI from program to program. macOS apps are more consistent. I also miss Unix but I'm trying to install WSL to get Ubuntu running. I wish I had picked up a 635t which is the full-tower version as you can put in 6-core CPUs at much higher frequencies. My typical CPU load is about 15% when I'm running my trading software. It's typically under 10% when I'm not. Typical RAM usage varies from 10-30%.

I am tempted to do a new build but I don't have a good reason to do so at this time as I have a ton of usable hardware. I like the Mini except for the thermals. I am pretty sure that I'd like a Mac Pro. But price/performance is horrible.

I've looked at the new Studio XPS and it's interesting and innovative. But, like many Apple products, suffers from thermal issues. They did a swinging gate PSU design in a really small tower. It's clever and easy to access and compact but I actually like more space so that I can throw in another case fan if I need to. I worry about that swing out design will become a liability way down the road. My preference is for full towers with lots of cooling.

I have not bought any cheap hardware in a very long time, perhaps 2005 or so. I think that component quality was a lot better in the 1990s but then we were paying $1K and up for systems while prices came down sharply in the 2000s. What I would like to do is buy a prebuilt desktop that has quality components and then just mode it. The 2008 Studio XPS was such a system. I have looked around for used Studio XPS systems but the asking prices on these models is nuts.

I look at used Macs as well. Mac Pros before 2013, Mac Minis, MacBook Pros before 2016. There aren't a lot of great deals out there meaning that there's a lot of demand for select years and models. I think that there are a lot of shops that buy the old stuff, refurb them and then sell them at high prices. I've seen 2012 Mac Pros, not even high-spec, for $2,000. They sit forever though.

 

[maflynn]

Finally, this is just a discussion

Oh I know, and I apologize if I sounded too adversarial

 

[CubeHacker]

This is all good advice, but you shouldn’t need to do all that. I haven’t reinstalled my iMac in years, I didn’t run any cleaner tools/apps, I didn’t disable anything, ran any debloaters or whatever - still works as smooth as the first day I used it. People keep saying Windows is just as good these days - but I don’t see it.

This is true, but also keep in mind that each revision of OS X has been burdened by more and more crap running in the background as well. Compare a clean install of 10.6 and compare it to Catalina, and the amount of processes running in the background has probably tripled! This is one of the reasons I continue to use Windows 7, but every day is becomes more and more outdated.

 

[pshufd]

This is true, but also keep in mind that each revision of OS X has been burdened by more and more crap running in the background as well. Compare a clean install of 10.6 and compare it to Catalina, and the amount of processes running in the background has probably tripled! This is one of the reasons I continue to use Windows 7, but every day is becomes more and more outdated.

This is why Macs expire on newer versions. Windows 10 is remarkable in that equipment back to around 2004 still run the latest version.