EU Planning to Force Apple to Give Developers Access to All Hardware and Software Features

[Beautyspin]

Yes, and you're saying we can trust random third parties to be equally or more secure and equally or more respectful of our privacy?

I'm saying Apple is no more or no less scummy than any other 3rd-party apps/developers. Any data you give to Google stays with it as does the data that you give to Apple. If you think that Apple having your data is secure, then Google having my data is also secure. If Apple having my data defines privacy to you, even though it uses the data for ads, then how is it different from Google using my data to show ads? What's special about Apple? iCloud photos scandal, Apple handing over encryption keys to Chinese government, show that I cannot trust Apple with my data at all.

Apple and Facebook gave user data to hackers pretending to be cops

Bloomberg reports that hackers posing as law enforcement officials were able to request and obtain data from Apple and Facebook.

bgr.com

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple does not have access to data on Android.
Apple and Google collect the same data on iOS.
How's maps supposed to function without tracking you? So, Apple maps do not track you?
Go figure.

No, Apple and Google do not collect the same data on iOS. They don't even have access to the same data.

But, of course, the comparison being made in the source you posted is Google's collection on Android to Apple's collection on iOS.

 

[webkit]

Your own article refutes your point.

"You Should Also Know: A recent report by 9to5Mac says that Google collects over 20 times more data from Android than what Apple collects from its iOS UI. It comes as no surprise as Google’s own privacy policy, which you can read here, tells all about how everything from Maps to YouTube is used to track you."

Of course, Google had a response to that report as well...


Update: Google also reached out to 9to5Mac with a statement about the study, which you can read below.

We identified flaws in the researcher’s methodology for measuring data volume and disagree with the paper’s claims that an Android device shares 20 times more data than an iPhone. According to our research, these findings are off by an order of magnitude, and we shared our methodology concerns with the researcher before publication.

This research largely outlines how smartphones work. Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways. This report details those communications, which help ensure that iOS or Android software is up to date, services are working as intended, and that the phone is secure and running efficiently.

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm saying Apple is no more or no less scummy than any other 3rd-party apps/developers.

There are obviously developers that are more or less trustworthy than Apple. Pretending there's no difference is disingenuous.

 

[Beautyspin]

No, Apple and Google do not collect the same data on iOS. They don't even have access to the same data.

But, of course, the comparison being made in the source you posted is Google's collection on Android to Apple's collection on iOS.

"For instance, when we consider the above-mentioned data, we can see that Apple and Google collect similar data." - This is a sentence from the same article that I had quoted and you have said you have read.

 

[Beautyspin]

There are obviously developers that are more or less trustworthy than Apple. Pretending there's no difference is disingenuous.

How do you determine who is more trustworthy? I and others may have different parameters. Just look at the number of users who use Android, Facebook, etc., They are substantial. So, can I say they trust them? There are people who buy an Android phone and immediately de-google it. How do we know if people will not de-apple an iPhone if they had the means? Let us provide the opportunity and see how popular Apple products are.

One point though, if Apple products are so good, why not let Apple release numbers, keynote, etc., on other platforms and see how good they really are.

 

[BaldiMac]

"For instance, when we consider the above-mentioned data, we can see that Apple and Google collect similar data." - This is a sentence from the same article that I had quoted and you have said you have read.

Collecting similar types within a limited scope does not make you the same. The how and the where and the why and the how much matter. Apple's personalized App Store ad business is NOT the same as Google's or Facebook's massive ad platforms.

How do you determine who is more trustworthy? I and others may have different parameters. Just look at the number of users who use Android, Facebook, etc., They are substantial. So, can I say they trust them? There are people who buy an Android phone and immediately de-google it. How do we know if people will not de-apple an iPhone if they had the means? Let us provide the opportunity and see how popular Apple products are.

If you can't simply admit that some developers are less trustworthy than Apple, then you aren't acting in good faith.

One point though, if Apple products are so good, why not let Apple release numbers, keynote, etc., on other platforms and see how good they really are.

1) Apple does release apps on multiple platforms. For example, Numbers, etc. are available on the web.
2) Much of Apple's appeal is in their integration. Is Numbers better than Excel? Not really. Maybe for simple spreadsheets. Is it better integrated and consistent with the UI on Apple platforms? For me, the answer is obviously yes.

 

[I7guy]

Apple collects the same data that Google collects on iOS and uses it in the same scumbag way. Open your eyes and stop drinking the koolaid.

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

Its privacy moves are to deny others from getting the data while benefitting from the data that it can easily collect.

Apple’s privacy changes create windfall for its own advertising business

iPhone maker’s share of mobile app advertising market has tripled in six months

www.irishtimes.com

Apple is a scumbag company like all the others. At least the other companies provide you with free services for using your data. Apple takes the data and also gives the customers nothing in return.

Yes. I am quite good with Apple collecting my data and internally using it for their own purposes as long as it doesn't leave Apple. If I buy a BMW, I am quite okay with BMW using my data and internally using it for their own purposes as long as it doesn't leave BMW.

Whatever you are attempting to point out, imo, is irrelevant. How is a company who sells you a product, to which you may have a long term relationship supposed to interact with you if your data wasn't stored and used as appropriate.

 

[Beautyspin]

Yes. I am quite good with Apple collecting my data and internally using it for their own purposes as long as it doesn't leave Apple. If I buy a BMW, I am quite okay with BMW using my data and internally using it for their own purposes as long as it doesn't leave BMW.

Whatever you are attempting to point out, imo, is irrelevant. How is a company who sells you a product, to which you may have a long term relationship supposed to interact with you if your data wasn't stored and used as appropriate.

So, Google collecting data and using it for ads should be ok for you on Android or Google apps. Same logic.

 

[I7guy]

So, Google collecting data and using it for ads should be ok for you on Android or Google apps. Same logic.

It is a different scenario, because the ad is coming from the outside and the advertiser knows my demographics based on google website settings.

 

[Beautyspin]

Collecting similar types within a limited scope does not make you the same. The how and the where and the why and the how much matter. Apple's personalized App Store ad business is NOT the same as Google's or Facebook's massive ad platforms.

I have no clue what you meant by this. Obviously they cannot collect the same data as one collect the data (bits or bytes) that has already been collected by a previous app. Otherwise, the article clearly shows what type of data each company collects (Apple and Google) on iOS. They are essentially the same. If you have read the article, you will notice that. I have to assume you have not read the article at all.

If you can't simply admit that some developers are less trustworthy than Apple, then you aren't acting in good faith.

How can you say Apple is trustworthy when it promotes scam apps, colludes with developers to promote subscription model, hands over data to whoever comes and asks for it without verifying the antecedents of the receiver, hands over the encryption keys and data to Chinese government, and many more shenanigans. I have not even touched the CSAM fiasco. Battery scams, and others.

1) Apple does release apps on multiple platforms. For example, Numbers, etc. are available on the web.
2) Much of Apple's appeal is in their integration. Is Numbers better than Excel? Not really. Maybe for simple spreadsheets. Is it better integrated and consistent with the UI on Apple platforms? For me, the answer is obviously yes.

It is not a question of whether you (I meant it is not about personal choice) like or not. It is a question of whether they are good enough to be adopted by a majority. Are they?

 

[BaldiMac]

I have no clue what you meant by this. Obviously they cannot collect the same data as one collect the data (bits or bytes) that has already been collected by a previous app. Otherwise, the article clearly shows what type of data each company collects (Apple and Google) on iOS. They are essentially the same. If you have read the article, you will notice that. I have to assume you have not read the article at all.

The article doesn't clearly show anything. It provides a few checkboxes with no explanation of how or where or why or how much. And, again, it's not comparing them on iOS. Just because the "Health" box is checked doesn't mean they both collect the same amount of health info, store it in the same way, or use it in the same way.

For example, Apple Health information is stored on my device unless I opt in to share specific data. That's not the same thing as uploading my health information to company x by default that uses it to target ads at me.

In other words, details matter. You are drawing conclusions from not enough data.

How can you say Apple is trustworthy when it promotes scam apps, colludes with developers to promote subscription model, hands over data to whoever comes and asks for it without verifying the antecedents of the receiver, hands over the encryption keys and data to Chinese government, and many more shenanigans. I have not even touched the CSAM fiasco. Battery scams, and others.

So, you aren't discussing this in good faith. Your arguments are nothing but black and white fallacies.

 

[Beautyspin]

So, you aren't discussing this in good faith. Your arguments are nothing but black and white fallacies.

They are facts. I draw conclusions based on facts. Everything I quoted happened. How do you generally do them (draw conclusions)?

 

[I7guy]

They are facts. I draw conclusions based on facts. Everything I quoted happened. How do you generally do them (draw conclusions)?

Facts strung together can still form an incorrect conclusion.

 

[trusso]

Go get an Android phone. The choice you want already exists without worsening the iPhone

You (all) keep using those words.

I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

We clearly disagree on such matters. But different strokes for different folks.

Indeed.

imessage,imo, is a value add product the government has no business in regulating. And whether imessage gets opened up or not we will see in the future. And whether Apple let's imessage get opened up will be interesting. It could kill it in the EU.

Value added and lock in is closely linked. Google products have tremendous value added, but it doesn’t lock you in as you can move between competitors easily.

Microsoft office have tremendous value added, but no lock-in as you can interoperate with other office suits, export in different formats and other can read Microsoft’s proprietary document protocols etc etc

Apple mail has tremendous value added but you can easily use gmail or outlook for your iCloud e-mails etc

SMS is clearly the lowest common denominator.

Give someone the decryption keys and yeah they can decode your message.

Giving someone one the key for encryption doesn’t give you the ability to decrypt it. It’s quite literally impossible.

You have an encryption and decryption pair. You send your encryption key to the other, and they send you their encryption key.

This is an a simple visualization of how it works.

Sure would be hilarious solution if Apple allowed third-party app stores, but still required the same app review, the same platform rules, and the same 15-30% as a "platform fee". Maybe bump the fee up a little to support the extra administrative costs.

Ha, indeed but they can only have reasonable security requirements, nothing about what API to use, or moral requirements and visual standards.

And the law. It's still illegal to access to a computer system without permission.

Not at all, there is no law apple can use to stop a company legally from working on their hardware.

SMS is a standard. It was created by standards bodies.

SMS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not quite. iMessage and SMS are different protocols that are supported by the Messages app. It also supports MMS.

The more you know. Time to change and update it with a new negotiation of the standard bodies

How will it be less secure if I or other users have to give personal and payment information to some random third party in order to download an app from a third party app store? Is that your question?

Can require apple pay support. Or as EU does it. Require industry standards, being verified and legal obligations of the company/bank. You using steam doesn’t make you less secure on steam.

Login with apple etc etc.
login in with apple= no data shares.
Use Apple Pay= no security details are shared etc etc.

Apple did set a reasonable security standard. The standard is, Apple collects our personal info and doesn't use it in a scumbag way, and we give our payment info to Apple and they don't lose it in a data breach.

Well apple fails miserably. Because that’s privacy not security.

Go get an Android phone. The choice you want already exists without worsening the iP hone

Well it’s not black and white. The iPhone just have more good thing I value than bad things. And I will try and change the bad parts as much I can.

 

[I7guy]

Indeed.

Value added and lock in is closely linked. Google products have tremendous value added, but it doesn’t lock you in as you can move between competitors easily.

Microsoft office have tremendous value added, but no lock-in as you can interoperate with other office suits, export in different formats and other can read Microsoft’s proprietary document protocols etc etc

Apple mail has tremendous value added but you can easily use gmail or outlook for your iCloud e-mails etc

Giving someone one the key for encryption doesn’t give you the ability to decrypt it. It’s quite literally impossible.

You have an encryption and decryption pair. You send your encryption key to the other, and they send you their encryption key.

This is an a simple visualization of how it works.
[...]

Ha, indeed but they can only have reasonable security requirements, nothing about what API to use, or moral requirements and visual standards.

Not at all, there is no law apple can use to stop a company legally from working on their hardware.

The more you know. Time to change and update it with a new negotiation of the standard bodies

Can require apple pay support. Or as EU does it. Require industry standards, being verified and legal obligations of the company/bank. You using steam doesn’t make you less secure on steam.

Login with apple etc etc.
login in with apple= no data shares.
Use Apple Pay= no security details are shared etc etc.

Well apple fails miserably. Because that’s privacy not security.

Well it’s not black and white. The iPhone just have more good thing I value than bad things. And I will try and change the bad parts as much I can.

Glass half-full or half-empty? Value add vs lock in? If other apps or programs decide to interface with the world, then it's a win-win. If the government forces the same thing, it's a lose-lose.

I don't want my encryption/decryption/public keys sent outside of Apple. Nor do I want apple to be forced to implement apis to allow external interfaces.

To-may-toe or To-mah-toe?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Glass half-full or half-empty? Value add vs lock in? If other apps or programs decide to interface with the world, then it's a win-win. If the government forces the same thing, it's a lose-lose.

It’s always a win win if the market are allowed to decide between themselves how to fix it.

I don't want my encryption/decryption/public keys sent outside of Apple. Nor do I want apple to be forced to implement apis to allow external interfaces.

Well that’s unlucky you then. The encryption keys are public for anyone to read including anyone not related to apple.

Apple’s servers just don’t communicate with anyone not identified as an apple device.

And public keys are useless anyway.

To-may-toe or To-mah-toe?

I prefer both

 

[BaldiMac]

Ha, indeed but they can only have reasonable security requirements, nothing about what API to use, or moral requirements and visual standards.

I have no idea where you get that from.

Not at all, there is no law apple can use to stop a company legally from working on their hardware.

iMessage isn't their hardware.

 

[macar00n]

I'm saying Apple is no more or no less scummy than any other 3rd-party apps/developers. Any data you give to Google stays with it as does the data that you give to Apple. If you think that Apple having your data is secure, then Google having my data is also secure. If Apple having my data defines privacy to you, even though it uses the data for ads, then how is it different from Google using my data to show ads? What's special about Apple? iCloud photos scandal, Apple handing over encryption keys to Chinese government, show that I cannot trust Apple with my data at all.

Apple and Facebook gave user data to hackers pretending to be cops

Bloomberg reports that hackers posing as law enforcement officials were able to request and obtain data from Apple and Facebook.

bgr.com

So is it more secure to trust (a) just Apple with my data, or (b) Apple plus a bunch of random third parties?

 

[macar00n]

You (all) keep using those words.

I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

They mean exactly what I think they mean, which is go buy an Android phone that already has the choice you want without tearing the iPhone down to Android's crappy level and then buying that

 

[lartola]

They mean exactly what I think they mean, which is go buy an Android phone that already has the choice you want without tearing the iPhone down to Android's crappy level and then buying that

have you ever actually owned an Android phone? more specifically a high-end Android phone such as Samsung’s S22 or Google’s Pixel that compete directly with Apple’s iphone?

 

[macar00n]

have you ever actually owned an Android phone? more specifically a high-end Android phone such as Samsung’s S22 or Google’s Pixel that compete directly with Apple’s iphone?

Of course not. But if you think it's great and has the features you want, you already have the freedom to buy it without legally requiring Apple to make its phones more like it in a way that would hurt the experience of the vast majority of its users

Edit: I haven't owned an Android exactly because that platform has what these bozo lawmakers are trying to force into the iPhone. Total fragmentation of OS and apps with lower security and privacy (not to say Apple is perfect in these areas, but far better)

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I have no idea where you get that from.

Quite literally from the legal text explicitly stating. Reasonable security standards. What you described have nothing to do with security.

iMessage isn't their hardware.

As long as it’s on users hardware they can.
Just how emulators are legal as long as users provide the game/program etc

 

[lartola]

Of course not.

Then the rest of your comment isn’t even worth reading. You don’t even know what you’re talking about. When you actually use an Android, if you ever do, we’ll discuss whether it’s crappy or not. In the meantime, keep quiet and don’t talk about what you don’t know.

And what I think is not the point. I have friends who are Samsung users and are just as happy with their devices as you are with your iphone. The difference is that they aren’t as narrowminded as you are: they’ve tested iphone several times and recognize its advantages, but every time they end up going back to Samsung after just a few months because they like it much better. That wouldn’t happen if Android were as bad as you purport it to be. If it were as you say then no one would go back to Android after having used an iphone once. It’s not the case and we know you spoke without knowledge and with bias like many other Apple fans: boasting about the iphone’s advantages without ever testing anything else.