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Scoob Redux

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2020
581
891
I don't get this line of thinking. Am I not allowed to invent a NFC credit card device which is equivalent to Apple Pay but that is all it does. I tell everyone that if you buy this device, I've only designed it to use my one payment provider. People end up buying it and it becomes successful even though there are many alternatives devices/cards/money. Would I then be forced to open up my device to other pay platforms?
The difference is that this is not a stand-alone NFC device. This is an NFC system that is implemented on iOS, one of the 2 most popular mobile operating systmes in the world. By virtue of iOS market dominance, the operator of such an NFC platform (ApplePay) benefits from (alleged) unfair competition or monopolization over other, competitive NFC services.

Would I be forced to figure out and pay for all the security implications/programming/etc because my competitors want in on my action? It makes no sense to invent anything now a days.
If you are operating a small, independent NFC service, then no. In fact, this action against Apple is designed to help small operators to be able to compete.
 

AdonisSMU

macrumors 604
Oct 23, 2010
7,302
3,052
The EU always takes it too far and then it backfires. I don’t think NFC needs to be available for every use case. It’s a convenience for sure. That’s all it is right now. I just don’t think this is anti-trustworthy at this time. EU is premature with this. It only hurts the cause later when it is actually anti-trust. No one is materially impacted by some other companys inability to use NFC. I’m also looking at this from a security standpoint and I think NFC for Apple Pay should remain tightly locked down and secure.
 
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AdonisSMU

macrumors 604
Oct 23, 2010
7,302
3,052
The difference is that this is not a stand-alone NFC device. This is an NFC system that is implemented on iOS, one of the 2 most popular mobile operating systmes in the world. By virtue of iOS market dominance, the operator of such an NFC platform (ApplePay) benefits from (alleged) unfair competition or monopolization over other, competitive NFC services.


If you are operating a small, independent NFC service, then no. In fact, this action against Apple is designed to help small operators to be able to compete.
What NFC operator? What does that even mean? What players are being disadvantaged by being banned from access to NFC? I think anti-trust action from the EU is premature. I think it’s way too early for this type of anti trust action around this specific issue and there are significant security risks to getting it wrong when it comes to NFC. EU is nit picking here. EU needs to back off, study the issue more and first decide what the law is so companies can comply rather than arbitrarily lob anti-trust suits at companies.

Tbqh the EU should be focused on users being allowed to side load apps to open up competition.

Your MSFT example earlier with the EU cases focuses on the bundling software and doesn’t focus on MSFT hobbling JAVA on Windows devices or strong arming a whole industry into only using its Windows software on almost all hardware. Ultimately the EU never actually addressed the monopoly aspect of MSFTs business. Instead MSFT just got complacent, the iPhone and intel based Macs came out, new browsers came out and those things combined opened up the markets to other players in the OS space.

However, even then in the PC space MSFT Windows is still on like 90% of computers 2 decades after EU “anti-trust”. EU didn’t actually get to the crux of the issue. It was just luck that any other players have any chance at all in the computer OS market.
 
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Powerbooky

macrumors demi-god
Mar 15, 2008
597
499
Europe
It's an issue for them because Apple takes a cut for every payment ;)

Just a few decades ago banks/intermediates were telling us that paying electronically was cheaper than using real money. Doing everything electronically would mean less personel, only computers and therefore it would all be cheaper for clients. O... wait...

No argue that maintaining computer systems cost money. It seems that having all those computers is more expensive than when most of the work was done by people, or is it?
 

AdonisSMU

macrumors 604
Oct 23, 2010
7,302
3,052
When the alternative is exiting the second largest market in the world? Lol ok. Even acting as narrowly as disabling NFC and thus Apple Pay in Europe would simply be cutting off one's nose to spite their face.

EU is not the second largest market. China is definitely second.

I don't get this line of thinking. Am I not allowed to invent a NFC credit card device which is equivalent to Apple Pay but that is all it does. I tell everyone that if you buy this device, I've only designed it to use my one payment provider. People end up buying it and it becomes successful even though there are many alternatives devices/cards/money. Would I then be forced to open up my device to other pay platforms? Would I be forced to figure out and pay for all the security implications/programming/etc because my competitors want in on my action? It makes no sense to invent anything now a days.

EU is gonna sue Toast next because some other third party vendor can’t put their software on a Toast device or use their NFC chip…. It’s just getting ridiculous. It may make sense to temporarily disable Apple Pay in the EU while they figure out their anti-trust laws.
 
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threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
705
1,381
Really though, the main thing Apple does with WebKit is intentionally cripple the resources it got, to ensure that web apps would never be able to approach the performance of native apps. Which of course bolsters the App Store as developers feel that making a native app is necessary.
If android allows whatever web engine to run on its devices. Why aren’t web apps more popular on android than normal apps?
 

threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
705
1,381
Apple is rumored to take about 0.15% cut from every transaction. (Likely changes for every country) The bank will want to get this money back somehow. So they will increase the transaction costs for stores. And the stores will increase product prices. In the end it will always be the customer who pays.
But all card companies charge for transactions (visa etc). No one does anything for free.
 

threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
705
1,381
what annoys me about the EU is that they say they are fighting for customers but they are really fighting for businesses.

they aren’t really interested in the consumer getting the safest most easy to use service. They are more worried that millionaire business men and businesses get a cut of whatever money is being made.

and then the dress it up as better for consumers, as if all competition is best for consumers. That isn’t true at all.

in the U.K. for example the fight against Uber has nothing to do with whether customers had a good service with Uber and more to do with making sure black cab drivers didn’t go out of business. Is that really the right angle? Protecting other businesses but removing or hampering a good service for consumers at the same time ?
 
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gregmancuso

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2014
408
512
That one went way over your head apparently. It would take me hours to apply for dozens of credit cards. Similarly, it would take me hours to move to Android. iTunes library. Photo library of 12 years. Dozens of apps to not only download, but login to. Services to shop for to replace iCloud and Apple Music. This doesn’t even factor in the cost. Hundreds of dollars on a new phone. A now useless Apple Watch. A $60 app that I have to rebuy. Thousands of dollars in smart home devices that are centered around HomeKit. At least a credit card app is free. Clearly your broad statement that swapping to Android from iOS is easier than applying for a new credit card is nothing short of laughable for a lot of people. For some people I’m sure that would be the case, but certainly not everyone. And someone with that bad of credit should probably worry about things other than if their credit card company supports Apple Pay.
Nothing went over my head. You made a blanket statement that you could secure dozens of credit cards easier than moving phone platforms. It was obviously a facetious comment but did open an interesting point - so I ran with it.

it is absolutely possible to apply for a dozen credit cards in less than an hour. Not saying that all would be approved so it will likely take a few hours.

I also never said that moving between mobile platforms was without costs. You commented that it would be hard to do. The move is easy. Moving all of your data and finding apps may take a little longer. But if you rely on first party apps for media then it is much easier. Network and comma will take time but you could us that time to keep applying for the credit cards.

There are lots of places that make applying for credit easy - credit karma, Experian, etc. the application process is a few clicks. That is not hard. Swapping the SIM card to move your service to a new mobile ecosystem is not hard. Both android and iOS have automated processes to help with the data movement.
 

Wanted797

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2011
1,733
3,647
Australia
What is it that the EU doesn't understand about consumers not wanting massive fragmentation in every aspect of their lives? For example, if banks are allowed direct access to the NFC chip they're going to force you to open/use their terrible apps to use Apple Pay. Without Apple strong-arming them, they would have already done so in Australia.
Yep. If they do this I will switch banks to the one that supports Apple Pay.
 
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Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,273
1,158
Lisbon, Portugal
The point of the comment, I believe, is application / function fragmentation - not saying that the banks should build their own phone. That would be insane. The likelihood is that most banks will add NFC payment to their apps and pull support from ApplePay. No more having all your cards in our Wallet.

With NFC, your smartphone is your wallet. YOURs, not Apple’s.

Let me picture you how these kind of leverage works against users, against third party business, controlling your material property … and if not regulated in the future it can control today imaginable things … against users.

There is an EU country that has been known by having one of the most advanced ATM and smartphone payment system in the west. The system is called MBWay. MBWay has an app that reads QRC codes with the camera and process the payment just with that info. All shops, from small to large super stores have a mobile ATM device that not only allows customer to pay with any of their debit or credit cards, but as well allows them to pay with the phone through by displaying a QRC. The App reads the QRC and upon users authorization it process the payment. The system is immediate, upon payment through your mobile the cashier ATM device immediately presents the payment as successfully. The system is so sophisticated that not only allows payment through QRC code, but also by simply giving your phone number to the cashier. The cashier inputs the phone number in her register, immediately you receive a notification on your phone … and through the app you can approve the payment … off you go. The system also allows users to register any cards … let’s call it a wallet. This has been going for over a decade.

Now NFC tech is a tad more convenient to you has a camera is not required, pointing aligning the phone to the QRC. MBway makes fully use of NFC on all smartphones, computing devices, but the iPhone.

Now have a look at the latest Apple conference. It’s about cinema mode, macro photography, super fast chips, device looks and design, 120hz display … Apple is compounding all this with digital and contactless payment …not to mention movies, series as well as health and fitness digital classes rooms, all of it. Some users don’t even know what Apple Pay is through this conference … nothing … they expect to be able to pay through their smartphone as transaction are moving to contactless.

Given this, users aren’t at all equipped to make the kind of choice you suggest. Neither they should really as the underlying business are very very different in their nature except for the requirement to to use of a computing device. In other words, the market is not equipped to make such decisions … there is a lot of leverage put in place by Apple from disparate business venues that collude yet not necessarily illegally within a device against other businesses, a lot, a lot, a lot.

What happens when leverage is kept on check? Do you use multiple banks? Why? Why using multiple banks and cards is smart, it’s competition, its good and protects your interests, …, but when it comes to Apple device is not good, its fragmentation, complexity, a privacy and security threat? The reality distortion field runs deep on this one.

This kind of value compound practices should rise suspicion from any reasonable person. Yet, in the end business is about public and business trust … hence the Anti Trust watch dogs exist exactly to oversee these kinds of forced business compounds that are actively being sought by big tech companies.

Cheers.
 
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Der Keyser

macrumors 6502
Aug 18, 2016
258
193
I think all the Apple fanboys should take their “defending Apple” to the logical conclusion: Apple bans spotify, netflix, HBO, competing fitness apps and so on from the appstore - it competes with apple’s own products and makes the phone insecure.
Do you still defend Apples position and use of its powers?
 

arobert3434

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2013
252
253
What you call fragmentation is indeed open competition. Requiring every single kind of business from digital goods and services to banking build their own smartphone is an anti-competitive practice. That would, even if possible which is not, would indeed lead to device fragmentation.

This is Apple goal and will not be allowed to enforce it regardless of how popular are their devices. Which in effect it what is the popular part of the all thing. Everything else has been forced through a mechanism of technological levers and closed policies while pretending to be open.
In Europe, there is no competition in this market, only collusion and local monopoly. The banks in each country get together and agree to not process payments through any app aside from one they create and share profits from themselves. This app has no need to "compete" with anything since customers have no other choice. Read about Norway, MobilePay, and Vipps for example. If the EU forces NFC open this problem will only get worse, because the one thing allowing us to use ApplePay in Europe at all right now is large numbers of customers asking for some solution that will let them do contactless payments with their phone. Once NFC is open banks in each country will be free to say, "No problem, just use our app," and the customers asking to be able to use the same app when they go across the local borders will be ignored.
 
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quarkysg

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2019
1,233
823
Disgusting - and yet completely expected. Europe is corrupt to the core. Apple should completely pull out of European market just to make a point.
If Apple pulls out, maybe we'll be seeing long lines at UK's Apple Stores every Sept.
 

weckart

macrumors 603
Nov 7, 2004
5,839
3,516
The banks would love to be able to provide Apple-Pay-like functionality for their cards without paying Apple a cut of their transaction fees. If Apple is forced to open NFC up for payment purposes (it already is usable by apps for other things), banks would most likely start dropping Apple Pay support and force you to use their own apps.
Have they done this on Android, where the restriction does not apply? Maybe it would just go through Visa/Mastercard etc without Apple's skimming its cut on top.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,345
24,091
Gotta be in it to win it
The banks would love to be able to provide Apple-Pay-like functionality for their cards without paying Apple a cut of their transaction fees. If Apple is forced to open NFC up for payment purposes (it already is usable by apps for other things), banks would most likely start dropping Apple Pay support and force you to use their own apps.
Yep, it's another flavor of getting to Apple's customer base through a backdoor approach.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,409
9,876
Columbus, OH
EU is not the second largest market. China is definitely second.



EU is gonna sue Toast next because some other third party vendor can’t put their software on a Toast device or use their NFC chip…. It’s just getting ridiculous. It may make sense to temporarily disable Apple Pay in the EU while they figure out their anti-trust laws.
For this comparison looking at HFCE probably makes the most sense and EU is number two. Regardless, it’s exact ranking makes little difference, it’s one of the largest markets in the world.

 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,409
9,876
Columbus, OH
Nothing went over my head. You made a blanket statement that you could secure dozens of credit cards easier than moving phone platforms. It was obviously a facetious comment but did open an interesting point - so I ran with it.

it is absolutely possible to apply for a dozen credit cards in less than an hour. Not saying that all would be approved so it will likely take a few hours.

I also never said that moving between mobile platforms was without costs. You commented that it would be hard to do. The move is easy. Moving all of your data and finding apps may take a little longer. But if you rely on first party apps for media then it is much easier. Network and comma will take time but you could us that time to keep applying for the credit cards.

There are lots of places that make applying for credit easy - credit karma, Experian, etc. the application process is a few clicks. That is not hard. Swapping the SIM card to move your service to a new mobile ecosystem is not hard. Both android and iOS have automated processes to help with the data movement.
Your view of what actually swapping platforms means is asinine and unrealistic. Swapping your SIM to a new Android is only the first step in actually switching platforms. Until your Android is in an equivalent position as your previous iPhone, then the switch is not complete. Whatever though, everyone can see the absurdly unrealistic argument you’ve setup for what switching platforms means.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,345
24,091
Gotta be in it to win it
Your view of what actually swapping platforms means is asinine and unrealistic. Swapping your SIM to a new Android is only the first step in actually switching platforms. Until your Android is in an equivalent position as your previous iPhone, then the switch is not complete. Whatever though, everyone can see the absurdly unrealistic argument you’ve setup for what switching platforms means.
OP does not have an absurdly unrealistic argument because it depends on the individual circumstance. Switching to a new platform means the ability to make the first phone call or text message. Not having a 100% and equivalent setup --this is unrealistic due to platform differences.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,409
9,876
Columbus, OH
OP does not have an absurdly unrealistic argument because it depends on the individual circumstance.
Exactly, and OP made an overly broad statement that switching platforms was easier than getting a new credit card. Clearly that's not the case for a great many people, in fact I'd wager a majority of people.
Switching to a new platform means the ability to make the first phone call or text message.
No that's switching phones, not switching platforms. The former is the first step in the latter.
Not having a 100% and equivalent setup --this is unrealistic due to platform differences.
Obviously meaning an equivalent as possible state. For example, there may be apps that are unavailable on one platform versus another. Being able to simply make a call or send a text is very different from having your music and photo libraries transferred and dozens of apps installed and working. Likewise the ability to control your smart home devices. Hard to say you've successfully switched platforms when you can't even do something as simple as turn on a smart lightbulb yet.
 
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Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
6,234
10,177
San Jose, CA
The EU Commission is the Executive body of the EU and it's not elected its appointed by the Council(which is also not elected).
I haven't seen any other EU institution interfere with the Commission on antitrust matters.
The EU Parliament together with the Council adopts rules and laws by vote. The Commission merely executes them and regularly reports to the Parliament. The Parliament also has to approve the president and members of the Commission by vote, and in extreme cases has the power to censure the Commission and force its resignation with a two-thirds majority vote. The Council consists of representatives of the democratically elected heads of state of the individual member countries. All in all, the EU is far from being an "unelected body", no matter what British tabloids like to claim.
 

gregmancuso

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2014
408
512
Exactly, and OP made an overly broad statement that switching platforms was easier than getting a new credit card. Clearly that's not the case for a great many people, in fact I'd wager a majority of people.

No that's switching phones, not switching platforms. The former is the first step in the latter.

Obviously meaning an equivalent as possible state. For example, there may be apps that are unavailable on one platform versus another. Being able to simply make a call or send a text is very different from having your music and photo libraries transferred and dozens of apps installed and working. Likewise the ability to control your smart home devices. Hard to say you've successfully switched platforms when you can't even do something as simple as turn on a smart lightbulb yet.
I said it was easier than getting "dozens of credit cards" as was your comment. You also said "switching to Android". I hold that it is.

What are the steps?

  1. Switch Platform
    1. Swap SIM
    2. Test mobile comms
  2. Migrate first-party configuration (both Android and Apple facilitate this)
    1. Run migration process and was a while to migrate core settings and data - phone book, on-device photos
    2. Migrate iCloud data and iTunes media - SmartSwitch will import your iCloud data directly to your Android device. Install Apple Music on Android and you have access to your iTunes library. And it looks like there are several options for video, too.
Data migration is even easier if you don't rely on iCloud or iTunes for your data and media. DropBox, Box, OneDrive for data, Amazon for media. All cross platform and instantly accessible.

Arguably, you are done then. Obviously, there is still application configuration to accomplish in order to completely replace your current phone with all app functionality..

Finding and adding the cross-platform apps would be my first stop (think, streaming and other apps from the large players). That would entail installing and logging in. Yeah, you may have to set up direct payment if you were using subscriptions before. But the tenor of most commenters here is that Apple is bad for charging developers to process the subscription payments so I guess we can assume that most are already directly billing with the providers.

Finding and installing comparable apps for those that are not cross-platform would possibly need to be done

But, on the other hand, this application installation process also enables one to seriously look at their usage - how many apps are installed that are rarely or never used?

The last step is probably the longest and the most difficult. But it is really not all that hard.

Looking at all the steps, I'd venture the configuration could be complete in a matter of hours. Then let the phone process the data transfer.
 
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