European Parliament Votes to Support Right to Repair

[Marshall73]

What do they define as shortlived? I have family members still using my old iPads and iPhones, specifically iPad 2 and iPhone 6s. They will likely still be using them at this time next year and beyond.

 

[Marshall73]

How much does someone want to bet there's a 'secret serial number' in the M1, and if you dare to infringe on Apple's profit margin by swapping the SOC to get more memory, you get hammered. I'll bet there is, even if it's soldered in.

Watching that video on the iPhone 12's makes Apple look like THE most anticonsumer corporation on the planet. Hidden serialization should be a crime!

To swap motherboards, and have each phone declare their new habitat UNVERIFIABLE is OBNOXIOUS! And then just the cameras is more insult to injury.

To defend such heinousness is tragic.

So, are the M1's soldered in? Has anyone bought two different memory capacities, swapped the SOC's, and suffered the Wrath Of Apple. I'd be curious what happens.

But they have us by the 'short hairs' with the iPhones and macs, making such a capable, usable, and powerful device. And being locked down is part of the package. Sad... They are seeking to extinguish a whole industry, third party repair establishments for all of their devices. Sad.

The reason this is done is to shutdown the black market for stolen iPhone parts. This reduces the worth of a stolen device if the parts can’t be used. This should make iPhones worthless to thieves.

 

[NBAasDOGG]

You can continue using the wrong terms of course if that helps you but that doesn’t make you any more correct.

Apples warranty is a year. The EU consumer law in the individual countries protects you - in certain conditions- against The seller in a purchase. That is not a warranty although its effects are often similar in outcome ie a repair.

- If the Apple employee tells me that I have 2 years warranty on my product, then I have 2 years of warranty on my product!

- If I can get 2 years of warranty from Apple without feeling the difference between the first and second year, then its 2 years of warranty.

At the end of the day, it’s Apple replacing or repairing my product within 2 years, not the government.
Also, if you show them the serial number of your product, they will tell that you that have 1 year and 8 months of warranty left... yes by an Apple employee...

 

[NBAasDOGG]

That is the statutory warranty in the EU, which is indeed at least 2 years (longer even in some countries and for some products) - on paper. One has to keep i mind that the statutory warranty only protects against (possibly hidden) defects that were present when the product was purchased. Therefore all EU countries reverse the burden of proof 6 months after the purchase. If the product breaks down after that, the manufacturer can simply claim that the product was fine originally and that the customer mistreated the product. It is then up to the customer to prove them wrong, which means hiring experts, going to court, and generally turning the whole affair into a massive effort that probably exceeds the worth of the product. Thus in practice the statutory warranty is not nearly as valuable as people hope it to be, and Apple was being nice when they just replaced your screen for free.

Edited to add: This is why I am rather ambivalent about the EU statutory warranty. It can be genuinely useful in high value products, e.g. 7 months after purchase your new house collapses or the car engine breaks, though most such products will come with a warranty from the manufacturer for the first years anyway. For lower value products it just gives manufacturers an excuse to jack up prices since they "need to account for the EU warranty," when in reality they won't really have to do much fixing if they don't want to.

It’s literally not "on paper" and definitely doesn’t only cover "hidden defects".
If the product stops functioning (without users fault) then the product should be repaired or replaced with in 2 years.

 

[NBAasDOGG]

Nope. That’s consumer law which is not a warranty.

A warranty is provided by the manufacturers, the 2 years consumer law thing is a legal matter.

No, if your product break in 2 years (not user’s fault) you go to Apple store and they fix it for you.
It’s literally as simple as that...

 

[jlc1978]

Anyway, if the EU or other regulators require it, Apple and other companies will comply, like any other regulations. I personally don’t have a problem with requiring electronics device manufacturers to disclose repairability info, but others think it’s going overboard. We can agree to disagree! ?

Interestingly enoughh, regulations can work to the advantage of the regulated, to the detriment of the consumer. While the regulations intent may be desirable, how it impacts the competitive landscape may result in unintended consequences. For example, regulations can setup barriers to entry that make entry into a new market more expensive, and thus protects the existing companies positions.

Take repairablity. A laudable goal, but one that requires testing and certification that a startup may not be able to afford; especially since statements they make can come under regulatory scrutiny for even an innoncent mistake. Thus, companies may decide to forgo producing such a product, limiting competition. The more onerous the regualtion, the harder it is for new companies to enter a market.

 

[ericwn]

- If the Apple employee tells me that I have 2 years warranty on my product, then I have 2 years of warranty on my product!

- If I can get 2 years of warranty from Apple without feeling the difference between the first and second year, then its 2 years of warranty.

At the end of the day, it’s Apple replacing or repairing my product within 2 years, not the government.
Also, if you show them the serial number of your product, they will tell that you that have 1 year and 8 months of warranty left... yes by an Apple employee...

Employees don’t make legal statements and as humans can make mistakes.

Here is a sample of the uk warranty as an example:

Legal - UK Ireland Universal Warranty - Apple

www.apple.com

“Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty – (UK and Ireland)”

Oh what a surprise.

“But this guy told me to” - back it up with paperwork on their website where there warranty is clearly stated. Until then.

 

[ericwn]

No, if your product break in 2 years (not user’s fault) you go to Apple store and they fix it for you.
It’s literally as simple as that...

As has been stated the EU protects you against the seller. If that is Apple then you will approach them.

Repairing anything for free for 2 years is not the law. Please back your claim up.
It’s also not apples warranty. You are either lucky and ignorant or making this up as you go along.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The reason this is done is to shutdown the black market for stolen iPhone parts. This reduces the worth of a stolen device if the parts can’t be used. This should make iPhones worthless to thieves.

'Black market' is a cheap copy, 'gray market' is a genuine product with a 'questionable' lineage.

Having been in the industry for over 40 years, I know the difference. To penalize users who get genuine parts because they didn't get the parts from Apple directly though, is still abusive. The video of the guy swapping parts from two identical iPhone 12's is horrific. If Apple wants to stop black and gray market parts, they could do it in a way that doesn't punish their customers. Those parts, int hat video, were GENUINE. Apple needs to address their penchant for punishing users. There should be a system that checks if the parts are 'known good', and not punish users just because they opened the box.

Is there really that much of a black market for fake parts? As for the gray market, Intel dealt with that for decades, and probably still does. I've seen, personally, black market Microsoft mice, and Windows, and think I ran into a fake network switch once. Had a friend that had a fake MacBook battery, back when Apple trusted their users to swap their own batteries. I've run into fake bike parts too. At some level, corporations can't fight that market without beating on their customers. Apple, IMO, has taken their paranoia to absurd levels. To stick a serial number (kiss) in just about every part is so psychotic.

I'm just glad that I've never had to rely on a third party to fix an iPhone, but many are driven to them by a corporation that demands they be the only source for parts, and the largest source for service.

 

[rodriguise]

That’s not a thing.

But you’re right, in California some carcinogenic items are labeled as such.

It absolutely is a thing. You can’t walk into a coffee shop in the Bay Area with out seeing a Prop 65 sign. Everything in California gives you cancer.

 

[Alan Wynn]

That’s not a thing.

But you’re right, in California some carcinogenic items are labeled as such.

Prop 65 warnings are so ubiquitous as to be useless (or probably detrimental, as it makes it so people just ignore these warnings). Mostly they exist as a way to extort money from companies who were mistakenly not in compliance. For example because they have cleaning supplies somewhere in the building, they need to have Prop 65 warnings in many places. This is not a question of companies not informing their employees they work with carcinogenic chemicals and need to take precautions, this is about the presence anywhere of any chemicals that might be carcinogenic no matter how they are used.

 

[Alan Wynn]

'Black market' is a cheap copy, 'gray market' is a genuine product with a 'questionable' lineage.

Sorry, you are just wrong.

From the New Oxford American Dictionary:

Black Market: An illegal trade in officially controlled or scare commodities.

From Wikipedia:
A grey or gray market (sometimes confused with the similar term "parallel market")[1][2] refers to the trade of a commodity through distribution channels that are not authorized by the original manufacturer or trade mark proprietor. Grey market products (grey goods) are products traded outside the authorized manufacturer's channel.

Having been in the industry for over 40 years, I know the difference.

Given that the dictionary says you are wrong, I am not sure we should believe anything else from you.

To penalize users who get genuine parts because they didn't get the parts from Apple directly though, is still abusive.

Eliminating the market for stolen iPhones (as they did with the activation lock) and stolen iPhone parts benefits users. Allowing people to use cheaper stolen parts harms users. That is not abusive. Being required to use to use Apple certified parts ensures that users will receive the experience that Apple promises to deliver. If a user is given shoddy knock off parts, his complaint is not likely to be about the crap that his local phone kiosk sold him, but how terrible his iPhone is.

The video of the guy swapping parts from two identical iPhone 12's is horrific.

In what way?

If Apple wants to stop black and gray market parts, they could do it in a way that doesn't punish their customers.

As an industry expert, please explain how Apple can do this without ”punishing” customers. If this person was an Apple authorized repair shop, he would have access to the configuration tool and would be able to install a new camera. While in this case, he owned both devices, how would the devices know that he was a legitimate user, rather than a using stolen parts?

Those parts, int hat video, were GENUINE. Apple needs to address their penchant for punishing users. There should be a system that checks if the parts are 'known good', and not punish users just because they opened the box.

This is not a question of “known good” it is a question of ownership. Again, as he is not an authorized repair center, even if there were such a database, he would not have access to it.

 

[jlc1978]

Is there really that much of a black market for fake parts?

Depends on what you consider "big." If you go to Aliexpress or Alibaba and search for iPhone parts, pages and pages of various parts are returned. I doubt many of them are genuine or simply over runs.

As for quality, I bought a clearly fake Macbook Pro glass cover (the LED was not damaged) to replace a cracked one on an old MBP. It was plexiglass and the tape not real strong, but for around $10 the DIY repair made the MBO usable again. OTOH, I would shy away from batteries as the consequences of faulty ones could be high.

The whole "need to certify a part or it won't work" is not just for computer tech; heavy eqiupment companies are locking down the ability to make DIY repairs as well. Car manufaturers as well. To replace a battery in an e90 BMW you need to register it for the charging system to work properly or risk early failure of the battery. Zfortunately, 3rd part test gear can do that. When I put all the BT components in my e90 (the car was prewired just lacked the telemetry, mike, etc...) I had to have the dealer flash the build sheet for it to work; or use a bootleg version of tehir software to DIY.

 

[iOS Geek]

It absolutely is a thing. You can’t walk into a coffee shop in the Bay Area with out seeing a Prop 65 sign. Everything in California gives you cancer.

Heck, according to Prop 65, the case for a pocket CPR mask I carry could give you cancer. The warning was right on the package. I couldn't help but roll my eyes when I saw that! California is like a fungus. I left there years ago, but it's stuff keeps popping up!

 

[TheFluffyDuck]

Like many people, you argue that modular repair is more environmentally friendly, but that is not necessarily true. Making products repairable in the way that you and others want, makes them more likely to break (as an example soldered parts are much less likely to fail than socketed ones, and products that need to be able to be opened are way less likely to remain water resistant another common failure mode). Also, given that most people will replace their device well before it fails, all the extra components (sockets, cables, etc.) just add to the waste stream.

It is the same problem that “reusable grocery bags” have. To be better for the environment, they need to be used way more times than most people use them and that ignores the sanitation issues reusing them without cleaning causes.

There is a famous case of this from years ago. McDonalds had been working on building a recycling process for their styrofoam clamshell burger packing. They had gotten to the point that they were able to capture a large part of that waste stream and turn it into playground equipment and other things.

Some environmental group decided to go after McDonald’s and through an add campaign and boycott, forced them to switch to a wax coated paper package instead. Unfortunately, the wax paper was not recyclable, would not break down in landfills, and worse only kept the food warm for 10 minutes. McDonald’s was very good a predicting how many of each item they would sell every 15 minutes of the day, which meant that the styrofoam packaging (that kept the food hot for 25 minutes) ensured much less waste.

The group was successful in its goal of forcing McDonald’s to change its packaging, but did not benefit the environment at all.

But your argument breaks down when components with known lifespans such as an SSD are soldered onto the board. The charge a premium for SSDs which means people get smaller ones, filling up faster, and wearing out faster. Forcing a replacement of the entire board. Also, PC laptops have had water resistant keyboards for over a decade, which would save many a replacement and the environment. But its a feat apple has yet to pull off. Hell, it struggles making a normal one function, but thats a debate for another day.

Apple design choices with right to repair are about boosting replacement sales. Not the environment, and certainly not the user experience. The environment side of things is pure marketing.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Depends on what you consider "big." If you go to Aliexpress or Alibaba and search for iPhone parts, pages and pages of various parts are returned. I doubt many of them are genuine or simply over runs.

As for quality, I bought a clearly fake Macbook Pro glass cover (the LED was not damaged) to replace a cracked one on an old MBP. It was plexiglass and the tape not real strong, but for around $10 the DIY repair made the MBO usable again. OTOH, I would shy away from batteries as the consequences of faulty ones could be high.

The whole "need to certify a part or it won't work" is not just for computer tech; heavy eqiupment companies are locking down the ability to make DIY repairs as well. Car manufaturers as well. To replace a battery in an e90 BMW you need to register it for the charging system to work properly or risk early failure of the battery. Zfortunately, 3rd part test gear can do that. When I put all the BT components in my e90 (the car was prewired just lacked the telemetry, mike, etc...) I had to have the dealer flash the build sheet for it to work; or use a bootleg version of tehir software to DIY.

I had heard of, but was not aware of how extensive the market is for bogus iPhone parts. In my experience, I had not run into many 'knock off' parts. I can across a few counterfeit hardware products, and loads of counterfeit software products. We lost a bid because the winner was quoting counterfeit software. When alerted to that, the purchaser stated 'Why do we care. We're getting what we want at the price we want to pay.'

So is Apple actually aiding the 'alternative markets' by being so heavy handed in their parts and repair programs? Are they basically sustaining the very market they seek to eliminate? So do they need to get more heavy handed, or less. Interesting...

And, to the other person that quoted my earlier post, I was always told by vendors that the 'black market' was fake (and some genuine but mislabeled) parts and products, and that 'gray market' was seemingly genuine parts and products that had an obscure past, possibly being leaked from manufacturers and other sources. I flatly refused to deal in products we couldn't vouch for, weren't purchased from a vendor recognized distributor. We also reported resellers that were selling large quantities of counterfeit products. Largely, there were no repercussions that we were ever aware of. No one was ever prosecuted. One reseller sold counterfeit Windows 95 like candy. The fakes were everywhere. Even a local credit union. I was disappointed that for all their sturm und drang about counterfeits, and fakes, the perpetrators we identified were ignored. *shrug* But this is off topic. Apologies...

 

[NBAasDOGG]

As has been stated the EU protects you against the seller. If that is Apple then you will approach them.

Repairing anything for free for 2 years is not the law. Please back your claim up.
It’s also not apples warranty. You are either lucky and ignorant or making this up as you go along.

You’re clearly a charlatan!
Please contact Apple Netherlands or Germany and ask them what if they will repair or replace your product if it breaks without users fault. DO IT!

 

[ericwn]

You’re clearly a charlatan!
Please contact Apple Netherlands or Germany and ask them what if they will repair or replace your product if it breaks without users fault. DO IT!

Ah so I’m the one who should back up your claim after providing you with the English version.

Here is the German one. As the Germans say: Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil.

Legal - Germany Universal Warranty - Apple

www.apple.com

 

[ajfahey]

Ain’t socialist government great? Constantly innovating new ways to bureaucratically kill innovation by telling producers what they can design and build and consumers what they are allowed to buy.

 

[thasan]

I demand the consumer right to repair a microprocessor I purchased in the EU. Since they are too small and have too many transistors, I demand that the processors are made huge and the transistor count reduced to 10,000.
who is with me? /s

 

[thasan]

I am so tired of this line of Apple apologist. It's one thing if a product is difficult to repair due to size and design requirements, but quite another when a company goes out of its way to make a product difficult/impossible to repair in the way Apple does. Locking an otherwise generic power management chip behind a proprietary agreement, preventing third party repair companies from accessing it any way but through Apple directly and only one chip at a time on a case by case basis, thus ensuring same third party repair shop will always provide the repair more slowly and more expensively than Apple directly. Can you imagine if a car company tried something like this? If you were forced to get an oil change or purchase simple things like tires or batteries exclusively through the company dealership directly? And then when this arrangement was rightly criticized that car company made a token gesture of allowing independent shops to perform this work for an annual fee but due to supply chain restrictions mentioned above always more slowly and more expensively than the dealerships themselves?
What part of any of that scenario is better for the consumer? In what way has limiting choice and driving up costs ever been a benefit to the consumer?

Are you next going to ask apple to use a generic microprocessor and display too? Since car windshields can be replaced with non-Oems one, we should have that too. /s

 

[NBAasDOGG]

Ah so I’m the one who should back up your claim after providing you with the English version.

Here is the German one. As the Germans say: Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil.

Legal - Germany Universal Warranty - Apple

www.apple.com

Continue to read Jerry...

"If the product breaks the consumer can use additional rights from 434ff, 474ff (= 2 years)".

Same story with the Dutch website. Apple literally tells you that you have audition warranty. In this case, 2 years in most EU countries.

 

[vipergts2207]

I demand the consumer right to repair a microprocessor I purchased in the EU. Since they are too small and have too many transistors, I demand that the processors are made huge and the transistor count reduced to 10,000.
who is with me? /s

Literally nobody is asking for that. Nice strawman though.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Ain’t socialist government great? Constantly innovating new ways to bureaucratically kill innovation by telling producers what they can design and build and consumers what they are allowed to buy.

The last time I checked the EU was not a socialist government. Maybe from your point of view, but luckily that is not how the real world works.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Interestingly enoughh, regulations can work to the advantage of the regulated, to the detriment of the consumer. While the regulations intent may be desirable, how it impacts the competitive landscape may result in unintended consequences. For example, regulations can setup barriers to entry that make entry into a new market more expensive, and thus protects the existing companies positions.

Take repairablity. A laudable goal, but one that requires testing and certification that a startup may not be able to afford; especially since statements they make can come under regulatory scrutiny for even an innoncent mistake. Thus, companies may decide to forgo producing such a product, limiting competition. The more onerous the regualtion, the harder it is for new companies to enter a market.

No doubt there’s a line where regulations are overburdensome, but the repairability guidelines sound like self-disclosures. I suppose we’ll see more when legislation comes forth, if anything ever comes of this.