European Parliament Votes to Support Right to Repair

[ericwn]

Everything the EU does is to make Apple want to abandon that market more and more.

Just like when all the car manufacturers left after airbags, ABS and seatbelts were made into laws. Poor, utterly poor industry.

Apple is not Walmart that all of a sudden discovers that in first world countries people have unions and worker rights. They’ll appreciate the challenge, as they always did.

 

[vipergts2207]

Apple's making it more difficult to swap out components to keep the less mechanically inclined from doing so (as, when they mess it up, they end up costing them support $). Likewise, allowing third party shops to do warranty repairs (eg battery swaps) on phones is undesirable, as if they mess it up, then Apple's on the nut to replace under warranty.
(read: water resistance compromised by poor seal replacement, phone is fried when you get it wet).

It's a sacrifice those of us with ability to repair ourselves need to suck up and grudgingly accept.

Actually it’s not something we have to suck up. Why does this philosophy only apply to Apple? I’ve replaced the water pump in my washer. I’ve replaced parts on my own car. Those manufacturers didn’t artificially lockdown their products, even though I’m sure countless people have mucked them up with repair attempts. Apple isn’t required to help somebody that broke their own phone, without compensation. That’s a red herring and a poor excuse.

 

[deevey]

Did you carefully read what I wrote. Apple Fairphone would be a second phone line sold only to those who are willing to make the tradeoff of price and features for an upgradeable, long-lived device. It is not a perfect solution, but vastly, vastly better than what is available from Apple today, and from the recyclability stream available from mobile phones (e.g. read the article link). HTH.

Re: your assumptions about how bad an Apple Fairphone would be given the current Fairphone. The latter is not that bad, and AGAIN was developed by a couple of concerned folks with resources probably tens of thousands of times less that what Apple has.

It still doesn't deal with longevity in the real world.

Raw performance year on year is what's driving the majority of sales, not broken phones that need repair.

If you want your iPhone to last as long as possible, get a mil-spec case. The biggest damage risk in the normal life span of an iPhone is the screen and rear glass nowadays - Painfully expensive for the parts alone. Personally I wish the rear was plastic rather than glass for that reason.

The Fairphone market is so niche that they already have it covered for the hippies that really think they can save the world by using a different self-serviceable phone that has a lesser useful lifespan vs their old one. They will still upgrade their phones in the same timeframe as everyone else for speeds sake.

I agree that it'd be nice to be able to replace some of the parts, but how many people are really destroying the camera module ? batteries, sure it'd be nice to be able to change them DIY, but the phone will not be waterproof anymore (with any certainty anyhow) increasing the chance of future failures.

I'm far more concerned about other non-repairable devices e.g. household appliances than a phone which is a sealed unit for (mostly) a good reason.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Have you heard the phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch"?

Sure, you can mandate longer warranty periods - forcing manufacturers to create products with a longer MTBF. But, there's a cost for this. (and, in the case of phones, you would likely replace the batteries annually).

So, more expensive products. In the case of water resistance, yep, that would likely became an enhancement of the past, because these same groups will also legislate that it's unfair for the OEM's to be the only ones doing the repairs, so fat-fingered Joe's repair shop on the corner, which couldn't replace a gasket/seal to save their lives is also doing your battery replacements.

So, now you force the phone makers to have 5 years of product life / warranty. So, how many phone refreshes / generations should the software support? Apple's been doing about 5 years currently? So, let's say you make it 3 generations...that means that 15 years worth of devices need to be supported by your current version of iOS.

Yep...innovation would be awesome in such circumstances.

Oh, I know. It's so unfair to Apple that the phones, that keep getting more and more expensive, should last longer. So unfair...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

How much does someone want to bet there's a 'secret serial number' in the M1, and if you dare to infringe on Apple's profit margin by swapping the SOC to get more memory, you get hammered. I'll bet there is, even if it's soldered in.

Watching that video on the iPhone 12's makes Apple look like THE most anticonsumer corporation on the planet. Hidden serialization should be a crime!

To swap motherboards, and have each phone declare their new habitat UNVERIFIABLE is OBNOXIOUS! And then just the cameras is more insult to injury.

To defend such heinousness is tragic.

So, are the M1's soldered in? Has anyone bought two different memory capacities, swapped the SOC's, and suffered the Wrath Of Apple. I'd be curious what happens.

But they have us by the 'short hairs' with the iPhones and macs, making such a capable, usable, and powerful device. And being locked down is part of the package. Sad... They are seeking to extinguish a whole industry, third party repair establishments for all of their devices. Sad.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Oh, I know. It's so unfair to Apple that the phones, that keep getting more and more expensive, should last longer. So unfair...

It is not a question of fairness. If Apple is required to spend more money on a device, they will charge more for it. It is rare that these costs are net savings to customers.

 

[Alan Wynn]

How much does someone want to bet there's a 'secret serial number' in the M1, and if you dare to infringe on Apple's profit margin by swapping the SOC to get more memory, you get hammered. I'll bet there is, even if it's soldered in.

Since one cannot buy the M1 SoC, there is no way for anyone to swap them.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Did you carefully read what I wrote. Apple Fairphone would be a second phone line sold only to those who are willing to make the tradeoff of price and features for an upgradeable, long-lived device. It is not a perfect solution, but vastly, vastly better than what is available from Apple today, and from the recyclability stream available from mobile phones (e.g. read the article link). HTH.

It will not be a long lived device. It will not be waterproof, and it like every previous "upgradeable" computer, it will not make it past one or two device cycles, so it will last less time than current regular phones. Essential tried exactly this route and lost a fortune. Let us see how long this company survives.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Did you carefully read what I wrote. Apple Fairphone would be a second phone line sold only to those who are willing to make the tradeoff of price and features for an upgradeable, long-lived device. It is not a perfect solution, but vastly, vastly better than what is available from Apple today, and from the recyclability stream available from mobile phones (e.g. read the article link). HTH.

Re: your assumptions about how bad an Apple Fairphone would be given the current Fairphone. The latter is not that bad, and AGAIN was developed by a couple of concerned folks with resources probably tens of thousands of times less that what Apple has.

So not likely to happen.

Let me give you an example. Electrical products, there was a move to require 'Made in America' products on certain jobs, and certain clients. The manufacturers were only too happy to make the same devices (switches, etc) in a factory 'over here', with the same components, and tack on a price increase. Now, many manufacturers have stopped, or stalled, those products. Apparently they don't want to extra money, or the recognition that they were 'Made' (assembled) in America. A 'Fairphone' is not a viable alternative to a rapacious company demanding profit for everything they do. They have an 'it's our ball, pay to play' that has caused other players to do the same, and it's effecting the country, and people like farmers, and anyone that is dependent on the wide variety of medical devices.

Yes, check out ifixit, and the many other Right To Repair groups out there and see where parts, even the most simple, are being horded by companies, making repair, or adjustment, by third parties impossible. (I had to hack my mom's CPAP machine because it was too low, and the company she had to get it from wanted to charge her over $100 just to adjust it, and she would have to travel almost an hour to their office. I found the model she had and the 'tech manual' on a 'Right To Repair' site, and was able to get in and tweak the 'prescribed dosage' rate, basically the fan speed. Talk about a raw deal! Two hours, and a hundred bucks to tweak a fan. That's some crazy there...

But y'all carry on. I'm done. I guess I'll get Apple Care on everything I buy, and line up like a good droid, and wait for them to fix things when they go sideways. *sigh* I could swap the screen, and if I blew it up, I'd acknowledge I screwed up. But to be denied that? Maybe it's the hacker in me, but I find that dispiriting, depressing, sad.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Since one cannot buy the M1 SoC, there is no way for anyone to swap them.

Buy two systems. I thought I mentioned that in my post...

 

[Alan Wynn]

Buy two systems. I thought I mentioned that in my post...

Why would anyone do that? Buy two machines, desolder the SoC without damaging it, then move the part to another machine, re-solder (again, hoping it is not damaged), to what end?

 

[justperry]

Let me explain it to you. The better the product, the less need for a warranty to convince people to buy crap. Warranties are marketing tools as much as anything else.

Nope, If you make a very reliable product a manufacturer can back that up with long warranties without it costing them any money.

 

[Shirasaki]

Have you heard the phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch"?

Sure, you can mandate longer warranty periods - forcing manufacturers to create products with a longer MTBF. But, there's a cost for this. (and, in the case of phones, you would likely replace the batteries annually).

So, more expensive products. In the case of water resistance, yep, that would likely became an enhancement of the past, because these same groups will also legislate that it's unfair for the OEM's to be the only ones doing the repairs, so fat-fingered Joe's repair shop on the corner, which couldn't replace a gasket/seal to save their lives is also doing your battery replacements.

So, now you force the phone makers to have 5 years of product life / warranty. So, how many phone refreshes / generations should the software support? Apple's been doing about 5 years currently? So, let's say you make it 3 generations...that means that 15 years worth of devices need to be supported by your current version of iOS.

Yep...innovation would be awesome in such circumstances.

Yeah, awesome innovations.
Nature will have a say about the current business model, by force. I would prefer a cleaner sky, fresher air and lower temperature in summer than worrying about which iPhone should I pick next year.

I always believe the nature’s will is absolute. Let the current yearly cycle run for a few more years. I am sure the impact will be very real. Oh, talking about the cost, maybe certain companies does not consider environmental impact as the cost, which is sad.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Look, I’m sorry. We can have this discussion til the cows come home. I’m not really trying to say you’re not technically right (even though I did say that - I admit)... and it sounds like you may be right (my curiosity is peaked about the types of wood... so I may just read the article) but the idea that anyone needs to be warned about everything under the guise of consumer information is still, to me, insane. There is literally no end to what could be explained or warned about. Literally... no... end. And guess what. When people see those minor warnings about sawdust, they are almost certainly going to have less reverence for a warning that’s potentially more severe. Boy-who-cried-wolf kind of thing.

Selling a mug? Better warn folks about caffeine. Selling a sink faucet? Better warn folks you can drown. And maybe they do warn you about those things - crazy. If you think that provides more information great.

But regardless of whether mahogany does or does not potentially cause cancer, it will not effect whether or not I, or likely anyone else, would not cut that piece of wood. Because, if you’re cutting it... it needs to be cut. I mean, really.

Thanks for responding to my earlier comment with information and without personal attacks. I appreciate it.

I hear you, thx. I can come on pretty strong and I know it, so thx for putting up with me ?

I think people will always have a difference of opinion re: what the appropriate amount of government involvement in business is. Things can definitely go too far in terms of the regulatory environment, but is this one of them?

Anyway, if the EU or other regulators require it, Apple and other companies will comply, like any other regulations. I personally don’t have a problem with requiring electronics device manufacturers to disclose repairability info, but others think it’s going overboard. We can agree to disagree! ?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Why would anyone do that? Buy two machines, desolder the SoC without damaging it, then move the part to another machine, re-solder (again, hoping it is not damaged), to what end?

Why would someone buy two iPhone 12's, and swap the 'guts'.

TO PROVE A POINT!

 

[IIGS User]

That EU building in the picture is cool looking...

 

[genovelle]

Apple should stand behind its products with a minimum 3 year warranty, i
I find it absurd that a giant company like Apple has only a 1 year warranty.

I applaud the EU for this, lots of things are glued in now, nearly impossible to repair, and then there are absurd RAM prices, RAM should be removable and replaceable by the user.

Nothing in life is free. If they offer a 3 year warranty then it will be reflected in the price. Removable ram like batteries are a common point of failure in portable devices. 5 of the phones I had before my first I phone died within a year and each time it was battery related. The connection got weaker and weaker and eventually shorted two of them out altogether. Having the general public climbing around in the device is a recipe for disaster. 98% of customers will never do that. At the end of the day it should be a choice of the type of device you want. If you trust Apple to build the best device they can buy an Apple. If you want to tinker with it. Don’t. I don’t want the quality of my device deprecated because a small number of squeaky wheels forcing Apples hand.

 

[TheFluffyDuck]

I'm pretty sure you can't tell a company how to manufacture a product they produce. You can't force them to design something that is easier to repair by "law". Your free to make whatever you want so long as it complies with safey and it's not toxic or something like that. You can't make Apple or anyone make a product that is repairable.

Yeah its not as if builders have safety practices and building standards for new houses, or car manufactures have standards for their new cars. Or food companies requiring rigorous health and cleanliness standards. Come on.

 

[TheFluffyDuck]

Ive always taken apples "commitment to the environment" with a bit of a chuckle, given how they design their products to be hostile to modular repair. This is a good thing, a big block like the EU will force Apple to make some changes.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Ive always taken apples "commitment to the environment" with a bit of a chuckle, given how they design their products to be hostile to modular repair. This is a good thing, a big block like the EU will force Apple to make some changes.

Like many people, you argue that modular repair is more environmentally friendly, but that is not necessarily true. Making products repairable in the way that you and others want, makes them more likely to break (as an example soldered parts are much less likely to fail than socketed ones, and products that need to be able to be opened are way less likely to remain water resistant another common failure mode). Also, given that most people will replace their device well before it fails, all the extra components (sockets, cables, etc.) just add to the waste stream.

It is the same problem that “reusable grocery bags” have. To be better for the environment, they need to be used way more times than most people use them and that ignores the sanitation issues reusing them without cleaning causes.

There is a famous case of this from years ago. McDonalds had been working on building a recycling process for their styrofoam clamshell burger packing. They had gotten to the point that they were able to capture a large part of that waste stream and turn it into playground equipment and other things.

Some environmental group decided to go after McDonald’s and through an add campaign and boycott, forced them to switch to a wax coated paper package instead. Unfortunately, the wax paper was not recyclable, would not break down in landfills, and worse only kept the food warm for 10 minutes. McDonald’s was very good a predicting how many of each item they would sell every 15 minutes of the day, which meant that the styrofoam packaging (that kept the food hot for 25 minutes) ensured much less waste.

The group was successful in its goal of forcing McDonald’s to change its packaging, but did not benefit the environment at all.

 

[LV426]

The idea that only kissed SSD's will work is ridiculous! The idea that you have to disgorge the entire contents of a computer case to add memory is STUPID!

Unscrupulous companies can and do dump substandard components onto the market. It’s not unheard of for fakers to label chips with misleading specifications. Easy to do. And if a buck is to be made...

To be fair to Apple, they design and test their devices to exacting specifications all the way up to app compatibility and, unlike most device vendors, have walk in stores where you can have your gadget checked over for free.

Bad components and tampering can lead to failure... which can lead to support costs as well as harmed reputation. So it’s not as clear cut as you imply.

 

[LV426]

Your just unlucky to "pick" the wrong ones, my Powerbook Pismo lasted me for 8 years, mostly used in a hot and humid tropical country, it was used for more than 15.000 hours.

Nearly everyone who bought a 2016 MBP had keyboard issues, myself included. The design was fundamentally flawed and, ultimately, acknowledged by the Apple repair program.

 

[LV426]

You don't need to protect adult from themselves. That's patronizing at best, infantilizing at worst. I don't need or want either of those from a corporation.

Actually, many adults do need protecting from themselves. In the UK, for example, we have very strict regulations so that Joe Public can’t just willy-nilly install a new circuit in his house, even though we have plenty of hardware stores with the necessary equipment.

 

[Grey Area]

Making products repairable in the way that you and others want, makes them more likely to break (as an example soldered parts are much less likely to fail than socketed ones, and products that need to be able to be opened are way less likely to remain water resistant another common failure mode).

I am skeptical. Solder joints age and crack from thermal stress and flexing. Solder joint failure is one of the more common root causes of electronics failure (hard to get useful prevalence rates, as they depend on the area - I have read anything between 10% and 70%). Conversely, sockets are commonplace in devices that are subject to much higher stress than Apple products, such as vehicles, power tools, rugged computers etc., so they cannot pose much of a problem.

Likewise, water resistance and easy to open are a common combination in rugged electronics. Certainly, opening them frequently increases the risk that the seals fail. But one would hope that such devices only need opening rarely, such as when internal components have failed, and then one is still better off with a repairable device with potentially compromised water resistance over a non-repairable waterproof brick. Moreover, water resistance can degrade due to other factors (heat, aging), and I think generally one should not trust in an IP-rating and submerge devices willy-nilly, as no manufacturer actually guarantees against water ingress. Finally, unlike iPhones, the Macbooks that have been a common point of criticism in this thread are not known for water resistance, despite their lack of repairability.

Soldering and limited repairability do however offer advantages regarding miniaturization, and this is genuinely important and should not be dismissed. Tolerances here are probably very subjective. Personally I would be perfectly fine with a 10mm thick iPhone with an easily replaceable battery (pretty sure that is possible, I have a Samsung like that as an alternate phone), but for others it might be too much. Would I be ok with even 15mm? Uh, I don't know.

 

[justperry]

Nearly everyone who bought a 2016 MBP had keyboard issues, myself included. The design was fundamentally flawed and, ultimately, acknowledged by the Apple repair program.

Yes, I know the keyboard issues on those Macs, you are just unlucky, I said picked within quotes, as in unlucky to have bought the mac without knowing this would become such an issue.
I have been luckier, my Pismo lasted me for 8 years, I have two 2012 Macs, a Mini and a 13" MBP, both working perfectly.