“Foundation” discussion thread

[theluggage]

I also reread all of them again. Bloody good TV. Some liberties with the plot but the essence (IMO) of the first chapter of Foundation is in the first TV episode. I get the same feeling with this as I had when I saw the first LOTR film - something classic from a classic source.

Well done all.

First episode pretty much set up the story of the first book (with a lot of tweaks and additions) - but then the second episode had zero to do with the original trilogy and went distinctly soapy - unless it is based on one of the prequels that I haven’t read.

However, not counting it out yet - I’m with the school of thought that the original books, for all their genre-defining ideas, were rather tedious exposition dumps told through wooden dialogue that would make lousy TV - so the “suggested by” approach is probably best. Not sure that Asimov could write a compelling character who wasn’t a robot...

Plus, of course, Asimov retconned the original trilogy to smithereens by writing later books that tied the Foundation into everything from the Elijah Bailey novels (which were far better stories and would have been a better bet for TV/Movie IMO) to End of Eternity which was really a bit of a stretch. Various comments/characters in the show suggest that they’re not going with that...

 

[Canyda]

Watched episode 1 tonight and really liked it. Felt like I was watching an epic movie and not a TV show. Will stick with it.

 

[zephonic]

Watching the first episode. Trying not to tear my hair out. Cryo-sleep for hyperspatial travel? What is this? The year 3000?

 

[zephonic]

Is the gender important for the story? If not, why does it matter what gender a character has?

In Gaal Dornick's case I'd say it's okay. But Salvor Hardin has to be a dude.

Also, this always skews in one direction only. Asimov has written great female characters. Imagine the outcry if they recast any of those as male.

 

[theluggage]

Cryo-sleep for hyperspatial travel? What is this? The year 3000?

...but not, apparently, for “slow” journeys from Trantor to Terminus that cruise sedately past inexplicably dense asteroid fields in interstellar space (while sailing past the Eagle Nebula, of course - it’s the law) yet still cover thousands of light years in a few years... Fortunately my level of expectation of consistent pseudoscience in TV or movie SF is pretty low, especially for what is basically a slightly more cerebral ancestor of Star Wars.

However, to be fair, all FTL travel is fantasy (unless you happen to have have a large ring of unobtanium, a planetary mass of antimatter and a cunning plan to avoid vaporising any solar systems you visit). Even The Expanse which is probably the “hardest” space opera* to make it to screen relies on a fantasy, implausibly efficient fusion drive for interplanetary travel and Clarke’s-law magic alien woo-woo for interstellar travel. FTL in SF is always a plot device.

*The hardest SF shows on TV being Black Mirror - which is typically about plausible extrapolation from existing tech - and Futurama by virtue of making lots of jokes about physics and maths.

 

[Internaut]

It’s way too long since I read the books for me to get all nerdy on this but… Watched the first episode and goodness it was rather special. The whole waking up during the jump thing... My memory is foggy but didn’t the character in the books turn out to be a you-know-what (sorry, don’t want to spoil it)?

Edit: No, I’m wrong, I think.

 

[matrix07]

Watched the 1st episode. 3 words: it is BRILLIANT.

 

[CWallace]

Watching the first episode. Trying not to tear my hair out. Cryo-sleep for hyperspatial travel? What is this? The year 3000?

I got the impression the pod systems were to protect the health of the passengers - there was the line from her "pod mate" that some people who were conscious during jump experienced a dissociation of their minds from their bodies.

The jump engines reminded me of a black hole so perhaps they use artificial singularities (like the Romulans in ST:TNG) and this creates intense gravimetric fields that could damage living tissue if unprotected.

 

[sevoneone]

As someone who has never read the books (blasphemy I know) I really enjoyed the first episode. It’s super refreshing to have a current sci-fi TV show that takes time for the details and world building and doesn’t assume that to appeal to a wider demographic they need to gloss over such things. I think the Expanse is the only other recent show not set in an established universe to get it right. It reminds me a lot of The 5th Element in how effectively they’ve established a dynamic and real feeling setting from just the bits and pieces we’ve seen of it.

 

[drsox]

First episode pretty much set up the story of the first book (with a lot of tweaks and additions) - but then the second episode had zero to do with the original trilogy and went distinctly soapy - unless it is based on one of the prequels that I haven’t read.

However, not counting it out yet - I’m with the school of thought that the original books, for all their genre-defining ideas, were rather tedious exposition dumps told through wooden dialogue that would make lousy TV - so the “suggested by” approach is probably best. Not sure that Asimov could write a compelling character who wasn’t a robot...

Plus, of course, Asimov retconned the original trilogy to smithereens by writing later books that tied the Foundation into everything from the Elijah Bailey novels (which were far better stories and would have been a better bet for TV/Movie IMO) to End of Eternity which was really a bit of a stretch. Various comments/characters in the show suggest that they’re not going with that...

IMO there will probably be a "How we got here" theme or story arc at some point that will need the earlier characters. I hope they forget about the last two books.

 

[LonestarOne]

In Gaal Dornick's case I'd say it's okay. But Salvor Hardin has to be a dude.

With the exception of Arkady and the Mule, any of the characters could be male or female.

I saw nothing wrong with making Gaal Dornick female, but unfortunately they had to give her a romantic subplot — and the actress who played Gaal had no romantic chemistry. It felt like Gaal and Raych had no reason to be together except for the fact that it was in the script.

 

[DotCom2]

Well I didn’t read the books and I’m glad I didn’t. Other than The Godfather, I have never seen a movie That was as good as the book. So I am just going to enjoy this series for what it is and from what I’ve seen so far I really like it.

 

[ipedro]

I’ve never read the books and I suspect I fall within the rule amongst most people. If we’re going to judge whether this show will take off, we need to look at it from the perspective of the majority of viewers.

While a little confusing to get into, the beautiful visuals kept me engaged while I took in the principles that will guide the story forward.

Instead of attempting to acquire established IP, Apple is building a universe based on the source material that inspired some of the biggest sci-fi properties. I think the bet will pay off. This kind of vast universe has limitless potential for not only the main series but spinoffs from side stories and characters. This could go on for decades.

Apple needed a flagship property. They have one.

 

[zephonic]

I got the impression the pod systems were to protect the health of the passengers - there was the line from her "pod mate" that some people who were conscious during jump experienced a dissociation of their minds from their bodies.

In the Foundation era, this problem has been solved, and the hyper-jump is typically below the threshold of human perception. Asimov does describe hyper-jump discomfort in the days of Elijah Bailey, IIRC. But not 20,000 years into the future.

 

[zephonic]

With the exception of Arkady and the Mule, any of the characters could be male or female.

I saw nothing wrong with making Gaal Dornick female, but unfortunately they had to give her a romantic subplot — and the actress who played Gaal had no romantic chemistry. It felt like Gaal and Raych had no reason to be together except for the fact that it was in the script.

Disagree, guys like Salvor Hardin, Hober Mallow or Bel Riose are typical males. Female Gaal Dornick is fine, though.

 

[zephonic]

But I realize I sound like I hate the show. I don't, it's a visual delight, looks absolutely fantastic. But it's not Foundation.

Also, too many British accents. A common sci-fi problem.

 

[Internaut]

But I realize I sound like I hate the show. I don't, it's a visual delight, looks absolutely fantastic. But it's not Foundation.

Also, too many British accents. A common sci-fi problem.

I‘m told we’re called the White Mexicans in Hollywood. Of course, the accents might equally be a function of where it was produced. Britain has a huge industry and infrastructure around entertainment.

 

[drsox]

I‘m told we’re called the White Mexicans in Hollywood. Of course, the accents might equally be a function of where it was produced. Britain has a huge industry and infrastructure around entertainment.

I always think that SF productions should be made in an unknown language with subtitles - as it is we are limited to actors with human appearance unless all SF should be in synthetic form. Surely modern rendering systems can cope with this. Whether the audience would put up with it - that's something else.

 

[matrix07]

Watched the 2nd episode and the wheels comes off a bit. The romantic angle just doesn't work. The girl (the one who's playing) is not a romance material, and the guy I just couldn't care less. I hope the show is improved by the next episode.

 

[zephonic]

Watched the 2nd episode and the wheels comes off a bit. The romantic angle just doesn't work. The girl (the one who's playing) is not a romance material, and the guy I just couldn't care less. I hope the show is improved by the next episode.

Raych and Gaal? Yeah, so cringe and unnecessary.

 

[drsox]

First episode pretty much set up the story of the first book (with a lot of tweaks and additions) - but then the second episode had zero to do with the original trilogy and went distinctly soapy - unless it is based on one of the prequels that I haven’t read.

Just looked at the cast list again and realised that the "romantic duo" male is the adopted son of Seldon who is a key character (Raych Seldon) of the two prequel books. Making Gaal Dornick female and part of the "romantic duo" allows a plot link between the two prequel books and the first original book (Raych Seldon not yet having been written).

 

[drsox]

Just watched episode 2. Well, that was different !

 

[LonestarOne]

I‘m told we’re called the White Mexicans in Hollywood. Of course, the accents might equally be a function of where it was produced. Britain has a huge industry and infrastructure around entertainment.

Troy Studios is in Ireland, not Britain.

The distinction may sound unimportant to Americans, but wars have been fought over that.

 

[zephonic]

...but not, apparently, for “slow” journeys from Trantor to Terminus that cruise sedately past inexplicably dense asteroid fields in interstellar space (while sailing past the Eagle Nebula, of course - it’s the law) yet still cover thousands of light years in a few years...

My beef is that this is explicitly a solved problem in Foundation, being 20,000 years in the future. Cryo-sleep is not mentioned in any of the novels. As it shouldn't be, hence my snide remark about the year 3000.

 

[theluggage]

My beef is that this is explicitly a solved problem in Foundation, being 20,000 years in the future. Cryo-sleep is not mentioned in any of the novels. As it shouldn't be, hence my snide remark about the year 3000.

(NB, I’m assuming everybody who cares has watched ep 2 by now - if not, avert your eyes)

Your beef is about changing the technical details of a fantasy FTL system. The “pods” thing is some sort of plot device that will hopefully have a payoff later when we find out why Gaal woke up. My beef is them being able to travel halfway across the galaxy in a few years without FTL (while sedately cruising past impossibly dense asteroid belts, so it ain’t time dilation), which is just nonsense.

What they’re doing, I suspect, is setting things up so that they can have continuing characters (otherwise they’d go through four complete casts just for the first novel) - they’ve got the robot (who was retconned in by Asimov anyway, but this version seems to have a relaxed view of the first law and a rather different backstory) they’ve added the cloned emperors (so the same actor can be used in that role for a few centuries) - my guess is that they’re going to put Gaal on ice so she can be thawed out for each Seldon Crisis and take a more active role than Hari’s recorded messages could. (wilder guess - she’ll be picked up by a jump ship and installed in the time vault on Terminus before the slow ship gets there).

I think this really boils down to Foundation, especially the first book, being a poor candidate for a TV show unless you’re going for ”inspired by”.