France Investigating Apple Over Alleged 'Planned Obsolescence' Arising From Serialized Repair Parts

[Sophisticatednut]

Yes I think there is a lot of governmental overreach - when a governing body goes from protecting societal welfare to being a nanny and micromanaging our lives.

This government have never worked with societal welfare. That's done by the local states and not the "federal" EUs regulatory job. Seems like you mix what some states to being EU.

Micromanaging your lives and welfare/ nanny states as you put it is locally desided.

EU regulate the single market and business relations in the single market. And work related security.

EU, don't raise taxes, pay welfare, provide services. The only thing they provide is border security and judges. And perhaps somthing mor i can't remember.

 

[robbietop]

Just take this guy who built an iphone 6s from scratch at 300$ in parts. Somthing you can't legally do as the parts shouldn't be for sale.

The fact is they haven't made things easier to repair. Alot of repairs an authorized repair shop does is just simple diagnostics and sending it away to a repair depot, unless it's a simple acreen/ battery repair.

They can't replace individual parts or purchase individual chips and cables. They must ether buy " unofficial" parts that are mostly stolen from the OEM factory or parts that didn't pass quality control.

Parts from other broken phones that is stripped In order to repair something else because the ability to get a hold of the parts isn't possible. So instead of purchasing a 1$ spare part you end up buying 600$ broken iPhone hopping it that part you need isn't broken. Or ordering expensive parts from the black market.

No it isn't, otherwise everyone would ask the same prices apple does. But they don't because they undercut them.

You can increase the price to make a bigger profit while I can undercut you with a cheaper price and steel all your customers, effectively I make more profit by lowering the price and you make less profits for increasing the price as customers go to me instead.

Huh, YouTuber with tech expertise builds iPhone from scratch.

From his website: "

I used to be a software engineer in Silicon Valley, at places like Google and a few other prominent startups. I even started my own. But now I travel the world full time, seeking out the novel and the obscure.

So, a software engineer from Silicon Valley is hardly some average Joe with a YouTube Channel.

And the decreasing price to undercut strategy is called the EDLP or Everyday Low Price Strategy (Walmart invented).

Everyday low price - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It has roundly been debunked and abandoned by most supermarket chains as well as retailers due to an actual DECREASE in profits caused by the DECREASE in prices. This is because the same amount of customers are visiting the store, BUT are now paying LESS. You don't magically increase profit by decreasing price. This only happens when your price is too HIGH and you bring it down to equilibrium price point to increase customer count at maximum revenue gain. Econ 101, again.

Apple would increase customers by reducing price, however, their revenue and by definition their profit would decrease as the costs structure remains the same.

Soooooooo, got any other rebuttals?

 

[robbietop]

Does it? You asked that their should be more important things for them to concentrate on? The question is still what do you think their job is? And it seems they already are taking care of more important things... Independently without it interfearing unrelated departments and fields.

This is Done by those who don't have anything more important to do, otherwise they would be working on that instead. Or can you think of somthing important that isn't delth with because of this?
More import things are dealt with localy anyway and not by EU.


How? Well if you or I can fix the phone mor easily by just having access to spare parts, then a professional person at independent stores will have an even easier time doing it better at a competitive price compared to Apple and authorized stores. And they will become better from competition.

If a Profesional can buy the same spare parts legally without cannibalizing other broken iphones, then suddenly that broken port or singular chip on the motherboard that apple charges 600$ I respective of the repair need as they replace everything anyway and for a week for it be sent away and fixed.

Can suddenly become a 30min fix for 50$ or less. A fix that wasn't possible to do suddenly becomes available.

And I don't know about you, but I would rather pay 50$ and get service warranty instead of 600$ and service warranty for my 1.000$ phone.

I think you aren't listening to wider possetive effects. Suddenly 14 year old David and his friends can learn repairing phones for friends and in the future open a repair shop and offer those services. Somthing thst happens because they could learn at a younger age and actually had the ability to repair things.

Ok, bud. I can go buy an oil filter gasket, but how many people are gonna do that themselves?
How many?

I can go on Google and research how to fix my software issue....or I can just call support.

Apple Authorized Repair are not getting taken to the cleaners. This isn't about them. This is about an ever decreasing minority in the tech community that just think everything is gonna remain open and free. Woz almost made the same mistake with his design back in the 70s if Jobs wasn't there to market it.

Look at Android, can you root it anymore without having to jump through ridiculous hoops?

You can buy it unlocked.
Yeah, everyone have that kinda money just laying around?

You're making a great argument, but the debate has changed. Even Microsoft Windows is still a locked, closed source OS. They still lock down their products tight. You almost weren't given the option to purchase Office standalone anymore. And in ten years, Windows will be a subscription you pay for the rights to use it. No more $139.99 product keys. $14.99 a month to use your computer. Don't believe me? Naive.

If I thought of it and I am some nobody living in Georgia, you better believe someone in Redmond has thought of it.

And it's not a stretch to think one day an iPhone will be subscription, as will Google, Android, Windows, Office (already is), etc.

And you can't forget the best forced subscription of all time: Government.

 

[dysamoria]

The prices have not changed in the years I have gotten professional work done. So, making it more complicated has not changed the price. Making it less complicated is not going to magically make the professional say "You know what, Apple made it easier for me to do my job. I will now charge less."

In fact, they might charge more to increase profit. That's the self-interest model of any market based economy.

Any basic economics class will teach you this. Even a pseudo-intellectual socialist understands this. Marx understood this. Adam Smith understood this.

You can leave out the anti-socialist rhetoric and ad hominem nonsense.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Huh, YouTuber with tech expertise builds iPhone from scratch.

From his website: "


So, a software engineer from Silicon Valley is hardly some average Joe with a YouTube Channel.

I think you missed the entire point. It's not possible to do this in europe or usa. It's not about you being able to build a phone from scratch but the ability to get the individual parts needed.

And the decreasing price to undercut strategy is called the EDLP or Everyday Low Price Strategy (Walmart invented).

Everyday low price - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It has roundly been debunked and abandoned by most supermarket chains as well as retailers due to an actual DECREASE in profits caused by the DECREASE in prices. This is because the same amount of customers are visiting the store, BUT are now paying LESS. You don't magically increase profit by decreasing price. This only happens when your price is too HIGH and you bring it down to equilibrium price point to increase customer count at maximum revenue gain. Econ 101, again.

Super markets? I'm talking abut small businesses. Everyday low price isn't the strategy I explained. It's called providing a better service at a better price.

If you can't go under 600$ as you don't have access to black market spare parts , but I do, so I can ask 100$ and fix it in 30min then. If my houerly rate is 30$/h and the spare part is 10$ i can make a good profit. But so can others as well if they have the same access.

Apple would increase customers by reducing price, however, their revenue and by definition their profit would decrease as the costs structure remains the same.

Soooooooo, got any other rebuttals?

Apple don't need to lower the price. They just need to make it as impossible as possible and the experience as terrible as they can to do the repairs. And customers will just go to them because:

It just works.

OH you need a special machine and activate the screen and camera replacement? Or the parts will be software limited to not work fully? How unfortunate. You can't get parts for a phone newer than 3 years? Well what a coincidence.

Simply it's not in apples self-interest to allow right to repair

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Ok, bud. I can go buy an oil filter gasket, but how many people are gonna do that themselves?
How many?

Yes I can go in to my wallmart equivalent (biltema) and buy it. And so can my mechanic.
And enough people are purchasing it for it to be sold for pennies in the store. So obviously enough.

I can go on Google and research how to fix my software issue....or I can just call support.

Apple Authorized Repair are not getting taken to the cleaners. This isn't about them. This is about an ever decreasing minority in the tech community that just think everything is gonna remain open and free. Woz almost made the same mistake with his design back in the 70s if Jobs wasn't there to market it.

Apple Authorized Repair shops fine. The oly one getting ripped of is the customer who pays out the rear. Just compare an authorized shop and an independent shop.

Look at Android, can you root it anymore without having to jump through ridiculous hoops?

You can buy it unlocked.
Yeah, everyone have that kinda money just laying around?

Don't really know what rooting or unlocked have to do with anything. Every phone is carrier unlocked in EU by law so...

I can sign a 24 month phone contract and immediately put in another simcard. Kind of handy when traveling or just need an extra preepayed phone number.

You're making a great argument, but the debate has changed. Even Microsoft Windows is still a locked, closed source OS. They still lock down their products tight. You almost weren't given the option to purchase Office standalone anymore. And in ten years, Windows will be a subscription you pay for the rights to use it. No more $139.99 product keys. $14.99 a month to use your computer. Don't believe me? Naive.

What does windows software or any software being closed and proprietary have to do with anything related to the discussion?

If I thought of it and I am some nobody living in Georgia, you better believe someone in Redmond has thought of it.

And it's not a stretch to think one day an iPhone will be subscription, as will Google, Android, Windows, Office (already is), etc.

Well I can't say I'm really following. People tend to pay a subscription for their phone with their carrier so they can get a new phone every year.

And you can't forget the best forced subscription of all time: Government.

Since when are you forced to pay for the government? You can always move somewhere else, as my favorite friend say vote with your feets. In EU I can freely move between 27 difrent governments. EU itself doesn't levy or collect taxes.

There are currently 14 countries with zero incometax globally with a quick Google serch.

In the cayman islands or the Bahamas you don't pay any taxes at all. So you can move there if you want. If I'm not mistaken they might not have corporate tax ether.

 

[robco74]

Introducing the Apple Brick line. MacBook Brick, iPhone Brick, iPad Brick, and Watch Brick. All assembled using standard Philips head screws - no adhesives. Completely replaceable batteries, air gapped (no laminated) displays, all chips and memory are socketed - no soldering. Standard, off the shelf components only, nothing bespoke. Everything easily replaceable and available from multiple sellers. Special version of iOS that will recognize all new hardware and not require any sort of verification to enable full functionality (including biometrics).

Apple should release this lineup alongside their current products. Then we can let the market decide.

 

[robbietop]

You can leave out the anti-socialist rhetoric and ad hominem nonsense.

Yes I can go in to my wallmart equivalent (biltema) and buy it. And so can my mechanic.
And enough people are purchasing it for it to be sold for pennies in the store. So obviously enough.

Apple Authorized Repair shops fine. The oly one getting ripped of is the customer who pays out the rear. Just compare an authorized shop and an independent shop.


Don't really know what rooting or unlocked have to do with anything. Every phone is carrier unlocked in EU by law so...

I can sign a 24 month phone contract and immediately put in another simcard. Kind of handy when traveling or just need an extra preepayed phone number.

What does windows software or any software being closed and proprietary have to do with anything related to the discussion?

Well I can't say I'm really following. People tend to pay a subscription for their phone with their carrier so they can get a new phone every year.


Since when are you forced to pay for the government? You can always move somewhere else, as my favorite friend say vote with your feets. In EU I can freely move between 27 difrent governments. EU itself doesn't levy or collect taxes.

There are currently 14 countries with zero incometax globally with a quick Google serch.

In the cayman islands or the Bahamas you don't pay any taxes at all. So you can move there if you want. If I'm not mistaken they might not have corporate tax ether.

So you can just move and not pay taxes where you live?

 

[robbietop]

The prices have not changed in the years I have gotten professional work done. So, making it more complicated has not changed the price. Making it less complicated is not going to magically make the professional say "You know what, Apple made it easier for me to do my job. I will now charge less."

In fact, they might charge more to increase profit. That's the self-interest model of any market based economy.

Any basic economics class will teach you this. Even a pseudo-intellectual socialist understands this. Marx understood this. Adam Smith understood this.

You can leave out the anti-socialist rhetoric and ad hominem nonsense.

Even a redneck American flag waving capitalist loving moron understands this. Tucker Carlson understands this. Bernie Sanders understands this.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Introducing the Apple Brick line. MacBook Brick, iPhone Brick, iPad Brick, and Watch Brick. All assembled using standard Philips head screws - no adhesives. Completely replaceable batteries, air gapped (no laminated) displays, all chips and memory are socketed - no soldering. Standard, off the shelf components only, nothing bespoke. Everything easily replaceable and available from multiple sellers. Special version of iOS that will recognize all new hardware and not require any sort of verification to enable full functionality (including biometrics).

Apple should release this lineup alongside their current products. Then we can let the market decide.

Sure would be alot of fun. Apple can probability provide a lot of innovation in this department

Can't say why would apple need to make a brick to do it better considering the extreme this company have gone.

Seems like a dreem for Apple dongles

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So you can just move and not pay taxes where you live?

Well yes what do you mean? If i stay longer than 6 months in a foreign country live and work i can get a tax exception from the tax authority in my country. But then if I stay in my home country for more than 5 months a year I would again be forced to pay taxes

Then why would you pay taxes for your home country when you live and work in another Country?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So you can just move and not pay taxes where you live?

So you can't move abroad and not pay taxes? So if you moved to sweden, Vietnam or Saudi Arabia you would still be forced to pay taxes? Even tho you don't live there or use the services anymore?

We have lot of retired people who move to Spain or perhaps Vietnam. Instead of paying 30% tax in sweden they pay 5% or whatever the tax bracket might be in the foreign country they decided to live in. If they lived in Saudi Arabia they would pay 0% if that's the i come tax of thst country etc.

 

[I7guy]

This government have never worked with societal welfare. That's done by the local states and not the "federal" EUs regulatory job. Seems like you mix what some states to being EU.

The EU is a nanny state it seems.

Micromanaging your lives and welfare/ nanny states as you put it is locally desided.

Yep, the federal government does a good job a micromanaging also.

EU regulate the single market and business relations in the single market. And work related security.

EU, don't raise taxes, pay welfare, provide services. The only thing they provide is border security and judges. And perhaps somthing mor i can't remember.

I’m not in favor of government overreach. The federal government is famous at it.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The EU is a nanny state it seems.

By the defenitions eu isn't. Complain to the local government independent from EU

Yep, the federal government does a good job a micromanaging also.

The us federal government is famous for it. Eu isn't.

The US federal government with 3 million civilian employees. Judicial and legal alone swells above 60k

EU employees 55.000 people.
And of them 32.000 work in the commission making laws. And 10.000 is border guards.

I’m not in favor of government overreach. The federal government is famous at it.

The us federal government is famous for a lot of things especially for being incompetent and extremely micromanaging. Try not to project their problems on others who don't share them.

 

[I7guy]

By the defenitions eu isn't. Complain to the local government independent from EU

The us federal government is famous for it. Eu isn't.

The US federal government with 3 million civilian employees. Judicial and legal alone swells above 60k

EU employees 55.000 people.
And of them 32.000 work in the commission making laws. And 10.000 is border guards.

The us federal government is famous for a lot of things especially for being incompetent and extremely micromanaging. Try not to project their problems on others who don't share them.

From an outsider, it seems if it walks like duck and quacks like a duck....

 

[Sophisticatednut]

From an outsider, it seems if it walks like duck and quacks like a duck....

If only you had glasses and knew what you looked at.

It walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but it's Coots, Grebes, and Loons. Aka not ducks.

Probably the problem with American legal systems and it's obsession to micro legislate everything.

Just American economic freedom is ranked 25th...

 

[I7guy]

If only you had glasses and knew what you looked at.

It walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but it's Coots, Grebes, and Loons. Aka not ducks.

Probably the problem with American legal systems and it's obsession to micro legislate everything.

Just American economic freedom is ranked 25th...
View attachment 2204862

20/15 eyesight. Talk about micro legislation. EU definitely leads the way.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

20/15 eyesight. Talk about micro legislation. EU definitely leads the way.

I can guarantee that USA have us beat. You micromanage how a sandwich is categorized and for tax purposes if a hotdog is a sandwich or hamburger etc.

USA like to regulate things that literally makes zero sence to care about as it impacts nothing. And EU likes to regulate things that have an actual impact on the market.

 

[JTK Awesome]

Good.

While serialized parts allows a record of the repairs and replacement parts on a device, which is especially nice when buying used and refurbished, the hijacking of functionality is the real crime. Screen replacements, for example, on the iPhone 14 series, even when using genuine Apple parts and without "re-pairing" by a certified technician or through SSR, results in the loss of True Tone, auto-brightness, and other critical functionality.

Here's an (incomplete) list of some of the functionality lost when doing a replacement of said part, even when parts are genuine, off of the top of my head:

1. Battery -> loss of battery health metrics
2. Display -> loss of auto-brightness, True Tone, and Face ID
3. Camera -> loss of portrait mode, buggy Camera app functionality, and loss of optical zoom

There is no technical reason why this should be the case - based on teardowns and hardware analysis even -
other than to make non-genuine parts so crippled to discourage self repair, third party repair or to encourage a device upgrade.

EDIT: Some posts below mention the "theft deterrence" argument, where serialized parts may discourage iPhone thefts by making their parts less valuable by inhibiting functionality. There is no evidence to suggest that this is an effective theft "deterrent". In fact, iPhone thefts are up and parts are still being sent to China in record numbers, even with these "deterrents".

Seconded. Anyone remember "Reduce > Reuse > Recycle" ? The most eco benefit comes from the first one. The longer our gadgets remain usable - the less disposable they are - the more we reduce e-waste. Repairability is a big part of that (*). If our beloved 🍎 were truly the "green" 🍏 they want us to think they are, they wouldn't get in the way of 3rd-party repair.

Thirded, in Wired:
https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-apple-france/

* Another great way to REDUCE e-waste would be upgradability (i.e. phones that aren't so tightly integrated that you have to throw the whole thing away to improve one part of it) but that's a rant for another thread.

 

[I7guy]

I can guarantee that USA have us beat. You micromanage how a sandwich is categorized and for tax purposes if a hotdog is a sandwich or hamburger etc.

That’s not changing the direction of a companies manufacturing. A tax category.

USA like to regulate things that literally makes zero sence to care about as it impacts nothing. And EU likes to regulate things that have an actual impact on the market.

EU likes to regulate American companies and take their intellectual property and out them in the public domain.

 

[dk001]

Interesting watch ….

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That’s not changing the direction of a companies manufacturing. A tax category.

Of course it does. Depending how things are categorized you can cut tax cost by 50%. By creating pointless tax categories, extra administrative burden.

EU likes to regulate American companies and take their intellectual property and out them in the public domain.

Do you have actual evidence for that grand claim?

All laws have equal treatment. Any evidence they "take" intellectual property? It's not like the laws sneaked upon them in the dark out of nowhere. If a company don't like IP laws then don't sell that IP.

American companies aren't that import and usa isn't the center of the world. Your laws don't extend beyond your border I respective how much you wish it did.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Interesting watch ….

Oh but that bad guy doing bad thing means nobody gets to have fun with their own property for the security of nobody.

The irony is that they could use it for security but choose not to.

Oh parts that came from reported stolen phone x, sorry can't use those parts.

OH part that came from the same phone 2 seconds ago? Nope can't use that it might be fake...

 

[I7guy]

Of course it does. Depending how things are categorized you can cut tax cost by 50%. By creating pointless tax categories, extra administrative burden.

That’s really a stretch.

Do you have actual evidence for that grand claim?

[…]

Evidence for an opinion?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That’s really a stretch.

USA has the most complex tax system in the world. The us federal system regulates more things that we would say is none of their buisness. And your courts make laws and regulations as well. In EU a court can't make new laws or regulationa, that's completely out of their power

Evidence for an opinion?

Yes evidence for an opinion that seems to be false and made up. So do you have anything substantial or its just plucked from the eather?

Because it seems American companies just like to break EU laws instead of following them.