iOS Apps From Alternative Marketplaces Can Be Updated for 30 Days Outside of EU

[Nuno Lopes]

They even region lock apps and other content besides movies and tv. Video games have been region locked for decades. You even need a console specifically for that region to play that game. You can’t just buy a game overseas and play it on your console purchased in the states.

This has nothing to do with region locking. The licenses of the concerned apps aren't sold, distributed or provided by Apple. The company has no material plow in to take them out of the hands of their owners! Not only that, but also the device, the OS license as well as the SDKs are being payed if not already payed. Neither there is a government mandate for that measure. This is just the company siphoning more income by simply using their power to remotely control peoples devices.

Apple is again simply presenting alternative orthographies to existing practices.

 

[dampfnudel]

Only 30 days? Most people do vacations for way longer than 30 days, it didn't have to be this complicated at all.

Most people definitely don’t vacation for a month plus at a time. At least not the ones with jobs.

 

[PDE]

Most people definitely don’t vacation for a month plus at a time. At least not the ones with jobs.

Then it wouldn't be a big deal for Apple to be consumer-friendly and not impose these kinds of restrictions.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Then it wouldn't be a big deal for Apple to be consumer-friendly and not impose these kinds of restrictions.

Absolutely! If that was their concerned, they would believe that such thing would be the natural outcome.

What they are effectively concerned, is that non EU residents start creating EU accounts to benefit from the DMA. In other words, they don't trust their own conviction that people are indeed voting with their wallets for Apple business practices but simply the camera, OS UI and device. The rest is hidden the carpet involved in alternative orthographies enough to keep you going around in circles. They are concerned that the ones that start doing it, may create a ripple effect through word of mouth and pressure for the same thing for their region. So they manufacture a restriction against users properties to deter them from using alternative distribution mechanisms such as third party App Store hence stop contagion.

 

[dialogos]

I'm not clear on the concept behind it. I reside in the EU and have been using a US account without any issues for at least the past 13 years.

I also have an account from an EU country, which is my primary account, and I've never encountered any issues while in the US, where I've spent well over 30 days on multiple occasions.

 

[MilaM]

So as an American, I should have access to BBC iPlayer even though I’m not a British taxpayer?

There is a fine difference. The BBC owns the content (or the distribution rights, to be precise) they are restricting access to. Apple only operates the store and does not own the apps they refuse to update under certain circumstances.

 

[j26]

Absolutely! If that was their concerned, they would believe that such thing would be the natural outcome.

What they are effectively concerned, is that non EU residents start creating EU accounts to benefit from the DMA. In other words, they don't trust their own conviction that people are indeed voting with their wallets for Apple business practices but simply the camera, OS UI and device. The rest is hidden the carpet involved in alternative orthographies enough to keep you going around in circles. They are concerned that the ones that start doing it, may create a ripple effect through word of mouth. So they manufacture a restriction against users properties to deter you from it hence stop contagion.

To be honest, I agree with your reasoning as to why they're doing it, but it is their right to stop non-EU people from accessing it. The EU can't compel Apple to allow unbridled access.

The big issue I have is that they are deliberately leaving a security hole in the system by preventing updates of existing apps for people who travel outside the EU for long periods.

Hopefully this EU project will be a success, and the world will see that and want the same for themselves.

 

[MilaM]

but it is their right to stop non-EU people from accessing it. The EU can't compel Apple to allow unbridled access.

I think nobody expected non-EU accounts to have access to alternative app stores as mandated by the DMA. Disabling it after 30 days and using GPS as the sole criterion for doing so, effectively geofencing it, is what is very disturbing.

They have enough other data points that are not easy to spoof, like billing addresses, payment methods (card numbers), and phone numbers, to make a determination who should fall under the DMA and who should not.

In my opinion this is another example of "malicious compliance".

 

[j26]

I think nobody expected non-EU accounts to have access to alternative app stores as mandated by the DMA. Disabling it after 30 days and using GPS as the sole criterion for doing so, effectively geofencing it, is what is very disturbing.

They have enough other data points that are not easy to spoof, like billing addresses, payment methods (card numbers), and phone numbers, to make a determination who should fall under the DMA and who should not.

In my opinion this is another example of "malicious compliance".

Totally agree. It's either malicious or incompetent, and I don't think Apple are incompetent.

 

[MilaM]

Totally agree. It's either malicious or incompetent, and I don't think Apple are incompetent.

Not incompetent. But the reality distortion field is quite strong at Apple HQ sometimes.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

The EU can't compel Apple to allow unbridled access.

As I mentioned in another post, Apple could simply apply their policy by Apple ID region. When it came app access on their App Store they were far more relaxed in their regional rules so what kind of internal principles have changed since then?

On another note, the EU and its members can do whatever they feel right for their region and countries, in particular acts concerning the security of citizens properties (were in data form of physical form), as much as Apple can for their properties. As your example of no more than two weeks goes kind of argument, you need to think about people that are long term dispatched to other countries due to professional obligations ... think the military. Think also about Nomad EU workers.

Now this regulatory reality might look strange to some people that buy into the ultra liberal propaganda. The reality is that iPhones are indeed elements of a wide communication network. In effect Apple is not far from a very large telecommunications company with their smartphones. Now when it comes to telecommunication infrastructure every country or region have very strict rules, a lot of them quite technical.

For instance: In the EU, the Open Internet Access Regulation (2015/2120) grants end-users the right to access online content and services without any discrimination or interference (like blocking or throttling) by internet service provider (ISP).

For now this is applied to ISPs business practices only. In effect ISP could have been the great gatekeeper, clipping Apple dreams of became who they are now. But that was not the case because of these and many other regulations over ISPs.

Here is another one: https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/routers.en.html

And another one: https://blog.tohojo.dk/2015/10/the-new-wifi-regulations-in-europe.html

In effect Apple and many other have enjoyed the freedom provided by these and many other regulations. We don't even need to get into the regulation of other sectors such electrical network, transportation, urban spaces and so on.

The US has these kinds of regulations too.

Now coming back to DMA

In many ways the above represents the Application layer of the telecommunication infrastructure of the EU. Consider it the telecommunication EUOS. Other regions and countries have theirs. If you know about OS architectures you will know what is the Application layer of one. If you look closer, the closest to the core of such OS are indeed computing devices Operating Systems, including smartphone OSs but also personal computers. These are in effect the ones that provide the basis of the Application layer of such OS. Case in case, just remember that the iPhone was once locked to particular ISPs, that is how close to an ISP indeed it is. A regulation was necessary to allow users to free the device from the ISP subscription ... again protecting your property against such a predatory practices over billions of value in devices.

So quite right the EU region, like any other country or region can design what kind of communication network and its broad operating system the way they think it best suites their security concerns.

It is quite clear that the EU will not allow closed application platforms with highly relevant participation in their telecommunication network and platform. So Apple will need to decide what they want. Either hundreds of millions of EU users, $94b of revenue in 2023, as much revenue as China and Japan combines, all while having their iOS and Android open to apps and business circulation, behave in ways similar if not identical to macOS, Windows and other operating systems operating on top of such network. Or be a niche supplier, way smaller market share, at very high prices with the profits that come along. Say iPhones starting at $2000 to compensate for what they might consider loss profit for not being that open or as open.

The way I see it, the EU is not forcing any of these Gatekeepers to do anything different from what Apple impose on their users and their business. There are plenty of countries, plenty of regions that might compete for their presence in their communication network.

Feeling the pulse of other companies abridged by the DMA I don't see as much contention as I do when it comes to Apple ecosystem and its supporters. Its is barely talked about. Business as usual.

Cheers.

 

[lemonkid]

Contracts mean nothing in other countries.

See Chinese copyright law.

That's why Chinese companies selling on the Chinese website Ali-Baba are now forced to have a representation in the EU if they want to sell to an EU customer, I guess.

 

[j26]

As I mentioned in another post, Apple could simply apply their policy by Apple ID region. When it came app access on their App Store they were far more relaxed in their regional rules so what kind of internal principles have changed since then?

On another note, the EU and its members can do whatever they feel right for their region and countries, in particular acts concerning the security of citizens properties (were in data form of physical form), as much as Apple can for their properties. As your example of no more than two weeks goes, you need to think about people that a long term dispatched to other countries due to professional obligations ... think the military. Think also about Nomad EU workers.

Now this regulatory reality might look strange to some people that buy into the ultra liberal propaganda. The reality is that iPhones are indeed elements of a wide communication network. In effect Apple is not far from a very large telecommunications company with their smartphones. Now when it comes to telecommunication infrastructure every country or region have very strict rules, a lot of them quite technical.

For instance: In the EU, the Open Internet Access Regulation (2015/2120) grants end-users the right to access online content and services without any discrimination or interference (like blocking or throttling) by internet service provider (ISP).

For now this is applied to ISPs business practices only. In effect ISP could have been the great gatekeeper, clipping Apple dreams of became who they are now. But that was not the case because of these and many other regulations over ISPs.

Here is another one: https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/routers.en.html

And another one: https://blog.tohojo.dk/2015/10/the-new-wifi-regulations-in-europe.html

In effect Apple and many other have enjoyed the freedom provided by these and many other regulations. We don't even need to get into the regulation of other sectors such electrical network, transportation, urban spaces and so on.

The US has these kinds of regulations too.

Now coming back to DMA

View attachment 2356805

In many ways the above represents the Application layer of the telecommunication communication infrastructure. Consider it the telecommunication communication OS of a region or country if you will. If you know about OS architectures you will know what is the Application layer of one. If you look closer, the closest to the core of such OS are indeed computing devices Operating Systems, including smartphone OSs but also personal computers. These are in effect the ones that provide the basis of the Application layer of such OS. Case in case, just remember that the iPhone was once locked to particular ISPs, that is how close to an ISP indeed it is. A regulation was necessary to allow users to free the device from the ISP subscription ... again protecting your property against such a predatory practice over your property.

So quite right the EU region, like any other country or region can design what kind of communication network and its broad operating system the way they think it best suites their security concerns.

It is quite clear that the EU will not allow closed application platforms with highly relevant participation in their telecommunication network and platform. So Apple will need to decide what they want. Either hundreds of millions of EU users, $94b of revenue in 2023, as much as China and Japan together, all while having their iOS and Android open to apps, behave in ways similar if not identical to macOS, Windows and other operating systems operating on top of such network. Or be a niche supplier, way smaller market share, at very high prices with the profits that come along. Say iPhones starting at $2000 to compensate for what they might consider loss profit for not being that open or as open.

The way I see it, the EU is not forcing any of these Gatekeepers to do anything different from what Apple forces they force users and other business. There are plenty of countries, plenty of regions that might compete for their presence in their communication network.

Feeling the pulse of other companies abridged by the DMA I don't see as much contention as I do when it comes to Apple ecosystem and its supporters. Its is barely talked about. Business as usual.

Cheers.

We are very much on the same page. Maybe my comment should have been phrased as unbridled access to non-EU accounts.

 

[lemonkid]

As I mentioned in another post, Apple could simply apply their policy by Apple ID region. When it came app access on their App Store they were far more relaxed in their regional rules so what kind of internal principles have changed since then?

On another note, the EU and its members can do whatever they feel right for their region and countries, in particular acts concerning the security of citizens properties (were in data form of physical form), as much as Apple can for their properties. As your example of no more than two weeks goes, you need to think about people that a long term dispatched to other countries due to professional obligations ... think the military. Think also about Nomad EU workers.

Now this regulatory reality might look strange to some people that buy into the ultra liberal propaganda. The reality is that iPhones are indeed elements of a wide communication network. In effect Apple is not far from a very large telecommunications company with their smartphones. Now when it comes to telecommunication infrastructure every country or region have very strict rules, a lot of them quite technical.

For instance: In the EU, the Open Internet Access Regulation (2015/2120) grants end-users the right to access online content and services without any discrimination or interference (like blocking or throttling) by internet service provider (ISP).

For now this is applied to ISPs business practices only. In effect ISP could have been the great gatekeeper, clipping Apple dreams of became who they are now. But that was not the case because of these and many other regulations over ISPs.

Here is another one: https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/routers.en.html

And another one: https://blog.tohojo.dk/2015/10/the-new-wifi-regulations-in-europe.html

In effect Apple and many other have enjoyed the freedom provided by these and many other regulations. We don't even need to get into the regulation of other sectors such electrical network, transportation, urban spaces and so on.

The US has these kinds of regulations too.

Now coming back to DMA

View attachment 2356805

In many ways the above represents the Application layer of the telecommunication communication infrastructure. Consider it the telecommunication communication OS of a region or country if you will. If you know about OS architectures you will know what is the Application layer of one. If you look closer, the closest to the core of such OS are indeed computing devices Operating Systems, including smartphone OSs but also personal computers. These are in effect the ones that provide the basis of the Application layer of such OS. Case in case, just remember that the iPhone was once locked to particular ISPs, that is how close to an ISP indeed it is. A regulation was necessary to allow users to free the device from the ISP subscription ... again protecting your property against such a predatory practice over your property.

So quite right the EU region, like any other country or region can design what kind of communication network and its broad operating system the way they think it best suites their security concerns.

It is quite clear that the EU will not allow closed application platforms with highly relevant participation in their telecommunication network and platform. So Apple will need to decide what they want. Either hundreds of millions of EU users, $94b of revenue in 2023, as much as China and Japan together, all while having their iOS and Android open to apps, behave in ways similar if not identical to macOS, Windows and other operating systems operating on top of such network. Or be a niche supplier, way smaller market share, at very high prices with the profits that come along. Say iPhones starting at $2000 to compensate for what they might consider loss profit for not being that open or as open.

The way I see it, the EU is not forcing any of these Gatekeepers to do anything different from what Apple forces they force users and other business. There are plenty of countries, plenty of regions that might compete for their presence in their communication network.

Feeling the pulse of other companies abridged by the DMA I don't see as much contention as I do when it comes to Apple ecosystem and its supporters. Its is barely talked about. Business as usual.

Cheers.

How do you look at EU- guarantee laws? A device sold in the EU should keep working for a period of time conform the price of the device. This is however the responsibility of the seller, not the Company that makes it.

But if a company builds limits into a device, the seller can't be held responsible. Because it is the company (e.g. Apple) that willingly breaks the usability of the device when a consumer leaves the EU for a period longer than 30 days.
For an iPhone Pro it is reasonable to expect it to keep fully functional for at least two to three years. Way longer than 30 days.

 

[spoilsmuskrat]

Just a quick question, if my iCloud account/ bank card attached to the account are based in the UK and I am leaving now in an EU country will the ios/ipad os/ mac os update be for the EU? I don’t need all the mambo jumbo outside the app store, I do like as it is.

 

[wbeasley]

Only 30 days? Most people do vacations for way longer than 30 days, it didn't have to be this complicated at all.

more than 30 days?
doubt most people who arent retired holiday even 30 days. little Cost of Living crisis going on worldwide stopping many... keep my house or go for a month's holiday?

 

[wbeasley]

Cue the complaining

youve not been disappointed have you?

there are plenty of old emulated games already in the App Store to buy.
Legal,legit; licenced games.

They dont want them.
They want generic apps to install any ROM they've "found" for free.

Apple isnt anti emulated old games. it's stance is about piracy.

 

[wbeasley]

After decades of using Apple, and being heavily dependent on my Apple kit, this is the kind of anti customer attitude that will make me consider leaving the ecosystem. It saddens me that Apple has chosen this antagonistic path.

they even announced an easy to migrate to Android tool today for later release.
that should make a lot of complainers in here happy.

me, i'm waiting for Apple's Import Spotify playlist tool as I've ditched Spotify over their blatant political use of the EU.

 

[wbeasley]

I did not say anything about six months. But two months is not unheard of, especially in southern Europe.

the problem with any limit be it dollars or time is what you consider enough, others dont.

Apple says 30 days, you say two months.
If Apple had said two months, you would have wanted more. Or someone else would have.
Some can't see why any limits apply...

you can't make everyone happy. the EU directives havent made Apple happy. Nor some customers.

it was so much easier when people bought a product knowing the limits and couldnt do anything about it except make suggestions.

 

[wbeasley]

WTF?

This is not geo blocking. What's next, not allowing people to make phone calls unless subscribed through their App Store? This is Apple hijacking their clients properties unless they pay more, case in case the device people use. Better, this is company hijacking hundreds of millions of device owners and use them as leverage against the EU market and the users themselves.

If one account is from the EU region why can't its owner use their devices as per EU regulation regardless where one may be found in a particular moment in time yet also according to the governmental laws of their current location? Why am I suddenly at risk of loosing a a digital asset or service supplied by a third party? This is not the DMAs fault, that we are totally sure.

As a loyal Apple customer for more than 2 decades and EU citizen I feel betrayed by this company. My entire family aggregate uses Apple devices, I have been advising friends buy Apple products, as a CTO of a company have opted for using Apple computers. But no more.

Even if they backtrack on this, just the idea of putting this in place and go with it is enough for me to think that this company mindset is a security threat to any communication infrastructure outside the US at least. You see, it is not just user data that needs to be protected, but also ownership of legal software licenses and subscriptions to services.

And they want us to buy Vision Pros and let the model our reality? Imagine when this company starts to chip brain implants.

Keeping this trajectory if the EU banned them, I would loose a lot of money. But I guess it would be money well spent so that no other attempts to do this kind of stuff against the security of the EU communication infrastructure and its users. Clearly they can understand way better the Chinese and Russian requirements then the ones in the free world.

In practice Apple has 0 leverage to pull this kinds of moves in the EU. They are just simply abusing the confidence that the market deposited in them.

The EU does not care less about the EPIC vs Apple vs Spotify vs Microsoft vs .... or whatever. The reasoning about the DMA is simply security of the communication infrastructure as well as the digital market operating on top of it. Having a single company Apple to turn off the ability to install Apps across millions devices, the ability to block people from using Apps, and what not, just with a touch of a button ... is indeed a security threat. A threat that the company has no problem in using it if its not inline with their profit goals. Imagine this company one day, in small letters, thinks of granting themselves the ability to block people from making phones calls for whatever profit driven reason they think of.

There is no security if an alien to your own things can control your properties as they please. Zero, zilch, nada. This is basic security one-o-one. It does not matter, if they use such power or not ... they can so you have a security risk. It's just like giving the keys of your house to a guy that sold it to you that, if for security reasons touted you give the key to him for safeguarding ... and the guy not only charges you for whatever comes to your door that may dear necessary and consistently change the agreement every year. Siphoning as a service.

People buy this stuff for their publicity and none of this is publicized, just the better camera, the design, the aluminum, performance ... you know the drill ... just like a car.

The DMA just gave the opportunity for the Apple of today to show their true colors, their true vision of the technological future. Use it to control the flow of money of people and businesses through their devices.

This is quite clear now. Quite clear.

Cheers.

PS: I am sure some will come with technical justifications explaining that is impossible otherwise. As if technology isn't built by design.

PS: Its hilarious that Apple went on a road trip across Europe evangelizing that personal computers OSs should be like iOS, App Store only and all. I saw Greg in the Web Summit advocating just that for macOS. Imagine macOS was used as much as Windows ... wouldn't this kinds of moves be a security threat to any company or government? Of course it would be. But hey, when it comes to computers in the peoples pockets is no longer? Imagine both Microsoft and Apple pursuing this . Crazy. Crazy. What are these people smoking to be so distant from people's realities? Money?

the upcoming Android Migration Tool should be very useful for you when it arrives.

i think Apple realised making the tool is going to be cheaper to lose a few customers than listen to the complaints about the rules you signed up for...

 

[wbeasley]

I'm not clear on the concept behind it. I reside in the EU and have been using a US account without any issues for at least the past 13 years.

I also have an account from an EU country, which is my primary account, and I've never encountered any issues while in the US, where I've spent well over 30 days on multiple occasions.

things have changed thanks to the EU pushing things onto Apple.
you might like to read up on the changes and how your IDs will be affected.

 

[vakarpochui]

This is already the reality. Many apps are regionally restricted. The fact that some apps are available worldwide creates the illusion that it's one store, but it's not.

Having an app that is available only in some regions is not the same as having one version of app for some regions and another version for remaing regions. Come on, mate ...

 

[vakarpochui]

I think nobody expected non-EU accounts to have access to alternative app stores as mandated by the DMA. Disabling it after 30 days and using GPS as the sole criterion for doing so, effectively geofencing it, is what is very disturbing.

They have enough other data points that are not easy to spoof, like billing addresses, payment methods (card numbers), and phone numbers, to make a determination who should fall under the DMA and who should not.

In my opinion this is another example of "malicious compliance".

It is quite easy to workaround cards, billing and especially phone numbers. This has been going on for as long as things were locked to specific regions. Mate? I myself see no problem here. I live in one of EU countries and this seems reasonable. If I'm traveling for work or i'm on holidays apps from those stores will work and I will be able to update them for a month. OK, i'm outside EU for 35 days and? What happened? I did not get a x.xx1 update for my gameboy emulator? Feels like I'll be ok.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

the upcoming Android Migration Tool should be very useful for you when it arrives.

i think Apple realised making the tool is going to be cheaper to lose a few customers than listen to the complaints about the rules you signed up for...

Thank you for your concern mate. If it comes to that I don't think there is much of a problem regarding moving data from iOS to Android to a technical person such as me. The main challenge is reduce the costs of migration considering that I am personally the owner of several tenths of thousands of dollars in Apple tech.

As for your accounting in terms of costs ... well. Don't know, how much will cost Apple having the sale of their smartphones suspended from the EU market as they close loop holes in the first DMA version. But hey, who knows.

I think that their attachment to a great amount of value in passive income is distracting the company from doing what they do best. Which is technological innovation. With the occasional breath of fresh air, such as the M processors, the all thing kind of stalled. The iPad OS for instance just got worst even with the support of more useful apps. Apple Watch and the iPhone, minor advances each year. Totally lost the first and the second Generative AI train carriage, with their more than a decade old limping digital assistant (Siri). This while being the first introducing a digital assistant the resembled some kind of effectiveness. Apple with Steve Jobs leadership in 5 years introduced more disruptive innovation than TC in 15 years. But hey, we now have a new Series/Movies, Music and Fitness operator in town ... oh and yearly drop s of improvements that must for sure count as great innovation. Almost forgot, a first gen $3500 VR dongle and a ghosting Apple Car ... amazing.

 

[vakarpochui]

Thank you for your concern mate. If it comes to that I don't think there is much of a problem regarding moving data from iOS to Android to a technical person such as me. The main challenge is reduce the costs of migration considering that I am personally the owner of several tenths of thousands of dollars in Apple tech.

As for your accounting in terms of costs ... well. Don't know, how much will cost Apple having the sale of their smartphones suspended from the EU market as they close loop holes in the first DMA version. But hey, who knows.

I think this is attachment to a great amount of value in passive income is distracting the company from doing what they do best. Which is technological innovation. With the occasional breath of fresh air, such as the M processors, the all thing kind of stalled. The iPad OS for instance just got worst even with the support of more useful apps. Apple Watch and the iPhone, minor advances each year. Totally lost the first and the second Generative AI train carriage, with their more than a decade old limping digital assistant (Siri). This while being the first introducing a digital assistant the resembled some kind of effectiveness. Apple with Steve Jobs leadership in 5 years introduced more disruptive innovation than TC in 15 years. But hey, we now have a new Series/Movies, Music and Fitness operator in town ... oh and yearly drop s of improvements that must for sure count as great innovation. Almost forgot, a first gen $3500 VR dongle and a ghosting Apple Car ... amazing.

There will be fines for sure, but sales ban? That's a stretch.