Latest Zoom Update Improves iPad Calls, Adds Custom Video Filters, Gender Pronouns, and More

[thefourthpope]

Nobody was bothered until compelled.

Imagine fining people over pronouns.

My favorite but from that article: This is the government as sovereign, threatening “civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct” if people don’t speak the way the government tells them to speak.

First, the dollar amounts strike me as far too high.
Second, I just love how the author made the move to “the way government tell them to speak” which is not actually what the regulation says but is a perfect example of catering to a specific fear. The bill is about getting people to call each other by the terms they’d like to be called.

The article even opens with language from the bill specifying

a. Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses …

The possible fines seem high but this just doesn’t seem like something that will come up unless people are deliberately trying to be jerks to their employees / coworkers.

 

[benshive]

You’ve done yourself astray by listing those examples which so clearly prove my point that both the idea of gender and the people who are designated to be beyond the natural gender binary are indeed a societal projection rather then a demonstrably new type of human being.

The wiki page for Bugis people itself says that the projection of said gender spectrum existed in a pre-Islamic Bugis society as part of rituals referenced as ‘Animism’ to which evaporated largely with the adoption of Islam.

Which begs the question that if their society no longer recognises these 5 genders you mentioned (since converting en-masse to Islam), where have they gone? Why don’t they exist anymore? Is there any evidence that these additionally recognised genders were in any way biologically different from what we consider Male & Female today?

The page for ‘Two-Spirit’ you linked says in it’s opening sentence that it is a “modern term” used to explain the projection of non-binary genders used in ceremonial & social roles.

And so the theme that you yourself are arguing here is that any genders beyond Male & Female are indeed a socially-agreed upon narrative projection of roles onto humans, and that their existence relies solely upon the belief of the peoples to which they are a part of.

Essentially, you are inadvertently agreeing with the notion that trans-people don’t exist unless we believe they exist, as unlike a Male or Female which exists regardless of belief (based on scientifically observable chromosome expression and evident in anatomy), any alternative genders from any given culture you can quote are simply social projections that have been agreed upon by said culture but don’t actually exist outside the minds of those who agreed on the projection.

And so are trans-phobic people actually denying the existence of something real and concrete? Or simply refusing to play along in the socially constructed LARP-projection game you are playing with words and fooling people into supporting with blind consent.

You're still conflating biological sex with gender identity. No one's denying that you have male and female bodies with their respective differences. You have to realize that we're talking about something different when we talk about male vs female anatomy and what roles someone should fill in society as a "man" or a "woman." It's important to understand and recognize the difference between the two in order for the conversation to make sense.

For instance, when someone says that gender roles are socially constructed, they're not saying that the male anatomy and the female anatomy are just figments of our imagination. They're saying that what expectations we've placed on someone who fills the role of "man" or "woman" in our society is not something inherit in our anatomy, but something we've constructed ourselves. So to your point, yes the other gender roles that I listed from different cultures are in fact not something that exists outside of those cultures, as is the case for many different things, including the way our culture has determined gender.

A simplistic example that could help make the point would be assigning genders to colors. Pink is a color that is considered "womanly" in our society. We've linked it to that gender identity. But pink used to be considered a "manly" color in the early 20th century. There's nothing about the color pink or the color blue that links it to the male anatomy or the female anatomy, but we've still made the distinction even though it's ultimately meaningless. There are plenty of other more complicated expectations that are similarly not grounded in anything, but we've just collectively agreed on them.

And that's fine, if you're female you can have fun wearing pink. If you're male, you can have fun wearing blue. But the problem is when we try to pigeonhole absolutely everyone into fitting into the rigid and ever-changing two-gender system we have. In essence, we're now realizing that someone doesn't have to run down the checklist and tick all of the boxes of what it means to be a "man" or a "woman" because of their anatomy. And looking at other cultures helps us realize that what we've considered "manly" and "womanly" is not as concrete as some would like to think that it is.

 

[IllinoisCorn]

To be honest, it’s your views on this that are completely unacceptable. It’s the same view people had about gay people. It’s the same view people have whenever they come across someone living their lives different to themselves. It’s the petrified of ‘because reasons’ view, the ‘what about the children’ view, the view where words like ‘poisoning’ is an ok thing to say in relation to how other people live their lives. The only poisoning going on here is your type, and the influence you’re having on the children of the world, being so very very intolerant.

Why do you insist on denying science by calling men women? Why do you equate your science denial with being gay? If I were gay, I’d sure be offended.

What is your argument for why this madness over pronouns and controlling the way people speak and think is good for society?

Pronoun warriors—there are other progressive hills to die on. This ain’t it, chief. You’re losing this one—bigly.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Why do you insist on denying science by calling men women? Why do you equate your science denial with being gay? If I were gay, I’d sure be offended.

What is your argument for why this madness over pronouns and controlling the way people speak and think is good for society?

Pronoun warriors—there are other progressive hills to die on. This ain’t it, chief. You’re losing this one—bigly.

I clearly didn’t equate it to ‘being gay’, i equated the backwards beliefs of people like you to be the same backwards beliefs many gay people had to (still have to) go though.

Nice try though.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason to conflate the historic civil rights struggles of marginalized people (gays, blacks, etc.) with a disturbed peron's fantasy they are one sex trapped in a different sex's body.

Stop trying to look for the next Selma. There are plenty of civil rights to fight for presently.

Before it was ‘ok’ to be gay, it wasn’t. It’s still not ‘ok’ in many parts of the world, and definitely not ‘ok’ for a fair few people.

I’m merely pointing out that backwards attitudes, unfounded aggression, hatred for which one doesn’t understand, failing to, or being unwilling to, understand the person next to you, propaganda and fud spreading about ‘poisoning the children’ etc, are all things which plight any marginalised group of people. It’s all in the word, marginalised.

Implying you fight for the rights of one group in the same breath as dismissing another as a ‘disturbed person’s fantasy’ is a vulgar path to tread.

Anyway, I have made my point and I’m thoroughly bored of speaking with you about it now. In real life I would have walked away from you long, long ago. ?

 

[SnacksGU]

God

 

[IllinoisCorn]

Before it was ‘ok’ to be gay, it wasn’t. It’s still not ‘ok’ in many parts of the world, and definitely not ‘ok’ for a fair few people.

I’m merely pointing out that backwards attitudes, unfounded aggression, hatred for which one doesn’t understand, failing to, or being unwilling to, understand the person next to you, propaganda and fud spreading about ‘poisoning the children’ etc, are all things which plight any marginalised group of people. It’s all in the word, marginalised.

Implying you fight for the rights of one group in the same breath as dismissing another as a ‘disturbed person’s fantasy’ is a vulgar path to tread.

Anyway, I have made my point and I’m thoroughly bored of speaking with you about it now. In real life I would have walked away from you long, long ago. ?

Glad you "walked away" to your practice of voodoo, astrology or other realm of fantasy.

Enjoy living in a world without the idea of biology or science.

 

[ericwn]

Ahhhh, that’s what the 16gb of ram is for.

I thought it’s for blooming.

 

[ericwn]

Yeah, no.

When you modify language, you modify thought.

This is not about "Oh, it's just politeness!"

Because it is not. This is about a wholesale change to a way of thinking that denies science and rationality--a wholesale change a majority of people in this country do not agree with.

Start small with pronouns. You know, for "politeness."

Next you're a bigot if you don't use the correct pronouns.

Next children are confused when they see a girl and are told, no, no, that's a man in a woman's body. Use the correct pronoun or you are a bigot and don't believe in inclusiveness.

I will always speak out against this, even on an Apple forum, as it is insidious.

Similar arguments were probably made against women’s voting rights a while back. Times change. Minds can evolve.

 

[ericwn]

Or you could just mind your own business, of course.

Applying common sense, nicely done.

 

[ericwn]

Well, I identify my gender pronoun to be "your majesty".

I command respect!

Did you already let Siri know?

 

[ericwn]

Do we really need this to satisfy such a small percentage of people?

Wether you need it or I isn’t the question. Zoom needed it as an option for their customers.

 

[ericwn]

So many triggered people on this forum! If you don't like using pronouns, guess what? Zoom allows you to "never share" them. Problem solved.

If you are that bothered by what genitals are in someone's pants, and if they match what pronouns they use, you need therapy.

This sums it up nicely in the 21st century.