macOS Sonoma 14.4 Bug 'Destroys Saved Versions in iCloud Drive'

[bice]

I really don’t understand the drama.
The cloud for me is nothing but a convenient way to synchronise my data between devices and access it from mobile devices from anywhere.

The real data repository is my local storage and the numerous backups (2x Time Machine disks and 2x CCC disks, in rotation, on and off site)

If the cloud goes bang, I just upload my data again.

Other people may have other uses for icloud, right?

E.g. you are on one of all those macbooks with base configuration. They have very limited local storage and the "optimise Mac storage" function helps you keep the files you need right now local and the rest in the cloud.

Of course you can restore from backup, but why should you have to take that step, then you use a core function of icloud exactly the way it was designed to?

 

[decafjava]

Yeah that’s why I have exported all my passwords into a CSV file stored on an encrypted external disc 👍

Ok I use Keychain and sync my passwords between my iMac and iPhone, so how do you do that? My old iMac is still on Monterey though my 15 PM is up to date but would like a backup of my backup.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Ok I use Keychain and sync my passwords between my iMac and iPhone, so how do you do that? My old iMac is still on Monterey though my 15 PM is up to date but would like a backup of my backup.

In Ventura, it’s an option in System Settings > Passwords. Top right of the pane “…” Export All Passwords.

But be advised the csv file it creates is not secure in any shape or form, so I would not leave it lying around. As stated, I keep mine on an APFS encrypted USB stick. Alongside exported contacts and Safari bookmarks (don’t have iCloud enabled for anything Safari related).

 

[Wando64]

Ok I use Keychain and sync my passwords between my iMac and iPhone, so how do you do that? My old iMac is still on Monterey though my 15 PM is up to date but would like a backup of my backup.

I am not sure I understand you. Just keep a Time Machine backup (or another, if you already have one).
Among everything else, TM will back up your passwords as well as any other system setting.

 

[decafjava]

I am not sure I understand you. Just keep a Time Machine backup (or another, if you already have one).
Among everything else, TM will back up your passwords as well as any other system setting.

Well I do that regularly anyway and am still on Monterey on my old system for now, so maybe worrying for nothing?

 

[Wando64]

Well I do that regularly anyway and am still on Monterey on my old system for now, so maybe worrying for nothing?

TM backs up your keychain.

By the way, I am on 14.4 and I am experiencing zero issues so far 🤞.
The important thing is to keep regular backups on more that one medium, preferably located in more than one location.

Bad stuff happens, to anyone, with any hardware, any version of any OS, or any cloud service.
Backups are the only way to protect yourself from it.

 

[Jim Lahey]

maybe worrying for nothing?

Probably. Personally I prefer multiple recovery vectors. I regard my logins as mission critical. Zombie apocalypse, Time Machine nuked, End of Days kind of scenarios. In the end we decide for ourselves how important this stuff is 👍

 

[AlmightyKang]

I am not sure I understand you. Just keep a Time Machine backup (or another, if you already have one).
Among everything else, TM will back up your passwords as well as any other system setting.

Go do some reading. This might not be the case. You can't necessarily restore a keychain from one Mac onto another one.

Edit: also things like Notes / Reminders which use CvRDTs for storage which are completely opaque. To do a proper backup you would need to:

1. Export all data from keychain to CSV (this is trivial but must be done regularly)
2. Ensure that any credentials are useable without an apple account (use a custom domain always!)
3. Export all notes to PDFs
4. Export all reminders somehow (I haven't worked out how to do this).
5. etc etc.

 

[jchap]

Go do some reading. This might not be the case. You can't necessarily restore a keychain from one Mac onto another one.

Indeed, I can verify that you may not be able to simply restore a keychain from one Mac to another. I recently tried to migrate a keychain from an old MacBook plastic white model running High Sierra, to a new MacBook Air M1 running Ventura. The keychain did not port over via Time Machine restore, and I could only export individual keychain entries from High Sierra. Of course, as @Jim Lahey mentioned it is possible now with newer macOS versions to export the keychain, but based on my experience I really don't see that this is a reliable solution for migrating that data from one machine to another. Maybe I'm just missing key bit of knowledge...

 

[AlmightyKang]

Indeed, I can verify that you may not be able to simply restore a keychain from one Mac to another. I recently tried to migrate a keychain from an old MacBook plastic white model running High Sierra, to a new MacBook Air M1 running Ventura. The keychain did not port over via Time Machine restore, and I could only export individual keychain entries from High Sierra. Of course, as @Jim Lahey mentioned it is possible now with newer macOS versions to export the keychain, but based on my experience I really don't see that this is a reliable solution for migrating that data from one machine to another. Maybe I'm just missing key bit of knowledge...

I don't think you're missing anything. I still use keychain myself but the process is this:

1. Open up MacPass (keepass version for mac)
2. Generate credential in there
3. Add it to keychain manually.

I always have a kdbx file then which is platform and machine portable for all credentials.

 

[Jim Lahey]

You can't necessarily restore a keychain from one Mac onto another one.

Moreover, if you then discovered that iCloud had deleted something six months ago then it may be of limited value anyway. Multiple recovery types are FTW, not just duplicate locations 👍

 

[decafjava]

Well I am seriously looking at getting CCC as another backup solution. More is better.

 

[Ethosik]

It's really starting to show that they spent the last five+ years working on Vision Pro and the car and not focusing on their current products. Really hoping they have already re-focused and we'll start seeing results soon.

This is what I thought about Apple for a while now. iPhones suck now but they finally fixed the Mac hardware with Apple Silicon. They can’t seem to focus on more than one thing.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Of course, as @Jim Lahey mentioned it is possible now with newer macOS versions to export the keychain, but based on my experience I really don't see that this is a reliable solution for migrating that data from one machine to another.

Definitely not. I regard my keychain csv backup as an absolute last ditch, the ship has already gone down disaster recovery. Something I could view outside of any particular environment and read/type into another system longhand.

 

[Apollo68]

This won’t happen. Apple would never put you in that position.

Yeah… because Apple clearly has never had a major screw up before.

 

[Wando64]

Go do some reading. This might not be the case. You can't necessarily restore a keychain from one Mac onto another one.

Edit: also things like Notes / Reminders which use CvRDTs for storage which are completely opaque. To do a proper backup you would need to:

1. Export all data from keychain to CSV (this is trivial but must be done regularly)
2. Ensure that any credentials are useable without an apple account (use a custom domain always!)
3. Export all notes to PDFs
4. Export all reminders somehow (I haven't worked out how to do this).
5. etc etc.

Thanks for the suggestion about the reading. I always enjoy some condescension.

I seem to be able to find only articles of people that have done it successfully.
Save me some time please. Can you show me something to read about the inability to restore keychain as part of a full restore to another Mac with the same OS version?

As for Notes and Reminders... well we were not talking about that, were we?
However, still, in the same spirit of me doing some reading, can you recommend something to read about the inability to restore notes and reminders as part of a full restore to another Mac with the same OS version?

Clearly if there is a real and common issue about this, I would want to change my ways.

 

[AlmightyKang]

Thanks for the suggestion about the reading. I always enjoy some condescension.

I seem to be able to find only articles of people that have done it successfully.
Save me some time please. Can you show me something to read about the inability to restore keychain as part of a full restore to another Mac with the same OS version?

As for Notes and Reminders... well we were not talking about that, were we?
However, still, in the same spirit of me doing some reading, can you recommend something to read about the inability to restore notes and reminders as part of a full restore to another Mac with the same OS version?

Clearly if there is a real and common issue about this, I would want to change my ways.

Some more information on this issue: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/data-m... | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

The point about Notes/Reminders is more that we have opaque abstractions within the platform which are more complicated than a file and are semantically tied to internal data structures which are not easy to query.

Case in point the Reminders are stored in ~/Library/Group\ Containers/group.com.apple.reminders ... Throw a terminal open as root...

Kangs-MBP:group.com.apple.reminders root# pwd /Users/kang/Library/Group Containers/group.com.apple.reminders Kangs-MBP:group.com.apple.reminders root# whoami root Kangs-MBP:group.com.apple.reminders root# ls ls: .: Operation not permitted

If we kill SIP, that gets us to a SQLite database which contains CvRDT structure as per Notes.app. The schema is not documented nor the serialized types which are in it. Thus when it comes to restoring it, if it does not work, which isn't guaranteed if the serialization format changes, or items are UUID tied to other iCloud accounts, then things will get a little interesting.

The other option which is "The Unix way" is probably one text file per note for example. They are simple files which are not an opaque abstraction and should Apple decided to completely kill your universe one day, are portable.

 

[RyanFlynn]

Yeah this update broke a 200 piece orchestral project in logic. All of my Universal audio plugins went haywire. #sh*tshow

 

[wanha]

"Optimize storage" has always been a giant bag of hurt

 

[GrenadeOconnor]

Yeah this update broke a 200 piece orchestral project in logic. All of my Universal audio plugins went haywire. #sh*tshow

Are you using any plugins by EastWest Sounds? I'm still on 14.2.1 because I'm working on an album and I'm afraid of breaking my plugins.

 

[ohthehorror]

Sorona 14.4. The Boeing of Mac OS.

 

[Shirasaki]

This won’t happen. Apple would never put you in that position.

Talking about blind trust.

 

[dumastudetto]

Talking about blind trust.

Apple has earned our trust.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Apple has earned our trust.

Life savings, more like.

 

[dumastudetto]

Life savings, more like.

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