MacPro 5.1 & high capacity hard drives

[amarmot]

Hi, just tuning into this thread. I've had very similar problems with several large HDDs, which include:
6TB WD Black
8TB HGST He8
8TB WD Red (White OEM label)
When mounted in 3G internal bays (Mac Pro 2012 tower), all mount on cold reboot, but not on warm restart. Does not matter which OS (10.10.5 vs 10.13.3) or where the system resides (SSD on PCIe interface, SSD on drive sled, or one of the HDDs).

 

[timothevs]

Same issue with my WD Red 8 TB NAS... I tried the tape trick and also tried to disable TRIM, but nothing works to recognize the drive after a warm reboot.

My Seagate 8TB drives don’t exhibit this issue at all.

Not sure who to complain to - Western Digital or Apple.

 

[h9826790]

Same issue with my WD Red 8 TB NAS... I tried the tape trick and also tried to disable TRIM, but nothing works to recognize the drive after a warm reboot.

My Seagate 8TB drives don’t exhibit this issue at all.

Not sure who to complain to - Western Digital or Apple.

Apple, unless you experience the same issue in Windows and Linux.

 

[bsbeamer]

Apple needs to improve their high capacity drivers and/or firmware for Mac Pro. The original sleds are not compatible with most (all?) of the newer large capacity drives that have issues like this. Maybe they use that as an excuse not to address?

Does seem like SOME drive manufacturer large capacity drive work better with Mac Pros than others.

Do wonder what would happen if they were in an external JBOD style enclosure connected via PCIe and if they’d behave differently.

 

[amarmot]

Apple needs to improve their high capacity drivers and/or firmware for Mac Pro. The original sleds are not compatible with most (all?) of the newer large capacity drives that have issues like this. Maybe they use that as an excuse not to address?

Does seem like SOME drive manufacturer large capacity drive work better with Mac Pros than others.

Do wonder what would happen if they were in an external JBOD style enclosure connected via PCIe and if they’d behave differently.

Oh, I know they do! Put any of these drives in an external enclosure with USB3 or eSATA (with PCI interface), and no problem. It's only in the internal SATA dive bays I see this problem.

Also, it's apparently not about drive capacity. I just tried a new 4TB WD Black (WD4005FZBX), and it also fails to boot on warm restart, just like all the larger drives. The older model (WD4003FZEX) has no problem. The only difference in stats I can identify is the cache size (256MB vs 64MB for the older model).

I'm about to just give up and get a 4 drive enclosure.

 

[spacedesign911]

High Sierra 10.13.4 released Friday contains new firmware for the Mac Pro 5.1, it doesn't list what is updated, but I wonder if it might resolve the issues with the large capacity drives?

If you download High Sierra 10.13.4 combo update, and run it, you will be asked to update the firmware, after that, you can then cancel the High Sierra update.

I did this and have the new firmware, but I ran in to problems with installing High Sierra my Boot Drive which is Raid and so as yet I haven't actually upgraded from Sierra to HS as yet, but I do have the new firmware installed.

 

[jscipione]

High Sierra 10.13.4 released Friday contains new firmware for the Mac Pro 5.1, it doesn't list what is updated, but I wonder if it might resolve the issues with the large capacity drives?

If you download High Sierra 10.13.4 combo update, and run it, you will be asked to update the firmware, after that, you can then cancel the High Sierra update.

I did the MP51.0085.B00 firmware update on my 5,1.

FYI you need to download the full installer (or combo update?) to get the new firmware version, the regular 10.13.4 update won't update your firmware for some reason.

See this thread for more details:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...3-4-mas-full-installer-mp51-0085-b00.2112641/

I'm pretty sure the firmware addresses a Spectre/Meltdown vulnerability and has nothing to do with large format drives (or nvme boot support).

I only have 3TB WD Red and 6TB HGST NAS drives to test and both types of drives work great, mount automatically on cold or warm boot - idk about WD Red 8TB tho (but I'd like to someday).

 

[spacedesign911]

I did the MP51.0085.B00 firmware update on my 5,1.

FYI you need to download the full installer (or combo update?) to get the new firmware version, the regular 10.13.4 update won't update your firmware for some reason.

See this thread for more details:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...3-4-mas-full-installer-mp51-0085-b00.2112641/

I'm pretty sure the firmware addresses a Spectre/Meltdown vulnerability and has nothing to do with large format drives (or nvme boot support).

I only have 3TB WD Red and 6TB HGST NAS drives to test and both types of drives work great, mount automatically on cold or warm boot - idk about WD Red 8TB tho (but I'd like to someday).

Can I ask exactly which model 6TB HGST NAS Drive you have that works for you booting hot and cold? And is it 7200 rpm?

 

[jscipione]

Can I ask exactly which model 6TB HGST NAS Drive you have that works for you booting hot and cold? And is it 7200 rpm?

HGST Deskstar HDN726060ALE610 (0F23072) 6TB 7200RPM 128MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" NAS Hard Drive (Certified Refurbished) w/3 Year Warranty https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B6JFSBV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_aRBXAbC0TKFVK

I don't boot off the drive since I have a PCIe M.2 SSD but they pop up in Finder no problem booting hot or cold.

 

[devynbrew]

Does anyone know if HGST Deskstar NAS 8TB drives work? I want to create a RAID 0 or use SoftRaid.

https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822146142&ignorebbr=1

 

[bsbeamer]

Does anyone know if HGST Deskstar NAS 8TB drives work? I want to create a RAID 0 or use SoftRaid.

https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822146142&ignorebbr=1

Define work.

Believe this is the same drive:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1303685-REG/hgst_0s04012_8tb_3_5_sata_internal.html

Was using in a 5,1 and it would not mount after restart. Only would mount after cold start. Pin tape fix did not really help - there were issues with the drive getting too hot, what seemed like over-spinning, and could best be described as power management issues. Removed the drive from internal, placed into an external and everything is working fine. DriveDx shows this HGST drive as less healthy than others that are several years older.

Personally would NOT buy this drive and use with RAID inside Mac Pro 5,1 due to the reboot mounting issues. I'm sure it could work if you never restart (only shutdown, wait, power on). But if you're storing that much data across multiple drives in an internal RAID 0, there's already enough of a risk for data issues.

Regardless, if you're running RAID 0 be sure to backup your data and do it frequently. Have a plan in place.

 

[lowendlinux]

I owed someone an answer about my big drive being there after abwarm boot and it is and it still is after the 10.3.4 update but now that I have that I just let the computer sleep.

 

[woodenbrain]

Thanks for this thread, glad I checked. Unfortunately I can't seem to identify which 4TB (or maybe 3TB?) drives will work without issue in a 2009 MacPro 5.1 running HS 10.13.4. By "without issue" I mean without any boot issues described, taping things, disabling TRIM, and without any special mounting trays. To be used mainly for storage, and looking for as good reliability is possible and hopefully not an OEM or non-warranty drive. Any specific recommendations?

 

[InuNacho]

Oh, I know they do! Put any of these drives in an external enclosure with USB3 or eSATA (with PCI interface), and no problem. It's only in the internal SATA dive bays I see this problem.

Also, it's apparently not about drive capacity. I just tried a new 4TB WD Black (WD4005FZBX), and it also fails to boot on warm restart, just like all the larger drives. The older model (WD4003FZEX) has no problem. The only difference in stats I can identify is the cache size (256MB vs 64MB for the older model).

I'm about to just give up and get a 4 drive enclosure.

Did you ever get any success with your larger Blacks?

 

[MacOZzy]

Connecting HGST 3Gb HDD to second connector under DVD drive (cMP 5.1 under 10.14.3) solve the problem for me without any tape etc. Warm or cool reboot doesn't matter - drive appears on desktop without any issue. Hope this helps someone. Cheers

 

[Ted13]

The source of the trouble is explained, for the most part, in this HGST document from July, 2016 (or at least that's when it was last revised).

https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/files/resources/HGST-Power-Disable-Pin-TB.pdf

We would expect that a long model number from HGST would tell all about the actual part, but no. One must know both the model number AND the part number. Whether a given drive has the "Power Disable Feature" (i.e. requires no or low voltage on SATA Pin 3 to spin up, e.g. 0.7 volts will do, but the normal 3 volts will not) depends on the part number.
.....

This is all very informative, thank you!!! But I'm still confused - I am thinking of ordering this drive: "Western Digital 14TB Ultrastar DC HC530 SATA HDD - 7200 RPM Class, SATA 6 Gb/s, 512MB Cache, 3.5" - WUH721414ALE6L4"

https://documents.westerndigital.co...c500-series/data-sheet-ultrastar-dc-hc530.pdf

If I am understanding correctly, this one does not have the "power disable feature" and thus would work on my 2009 Mac Pro (4.1)

Am I correct??

 

[Auggie]

This is all very informative, thank you!!! But I'm still confused - I am thinking of ordering this drive: "Western Digital 14TB Ultrastar DC HC530 SATA HDD - 7200 RPM Class, SATA 6 Gb/s, 512MB Cache, 3.5" - WUH721414ALE6L4"

https://documents.westerndigital.co...c500-series/data-sheet-ultrastar-dc-hc530.pdf

If I am understanding correctly, this one does not have the "power disable feature" and thus would work on my 2009 Mac Pro (4.1)

Am I correct??

I wouldn't worry too much about whether a drive has the power disable pin or not, as it's easily correctable with some tape:

3.3v Pin Reset

I've done this for both my Mac Pro's and my NAS's, using polyimide tape, cut to the needed width with an X-ACTO knife, for all the drives that have this feature and this easy mod worked like a charm for all these systems.

 

[Ted13]

...
You can get 16TB SSDs today (at outrageous prices, true) but my point is that they have surpassed spinning drives in capacity, and it's a matter of time (say 2 years) before prices reach 'close enough' parity.
...

I don't see the SSDs prices becoming similar to spinning drives in the foreseeable future. It is 2019, (you posted in 2017) and a 14TB spinner is ~$450. The 16TB SSD is ~$7,500. Also SSDs (which of course are beyond fantastic for most things) have a much lower lifetime for erase/rewrite than our slow but cheap HDs.

So I just don't see SSDs replacing HDs entirely. A company like BackBlaze switching to SSDs makes no sense. Nor does it make sense for me, with a current possible capacity of 56TB for a cheese grater Mac Pro for ~$1800

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I don't see the SSDs prices becoming similar to spinning drives in the foreseeable future. It is 2019, (you posted in 2017) and a 14TB spinner is ~$450. The 16TB SSD is ~$7,500. Also SSDs (which of course are beyond fantastic for most things) have a much lower lifetime for erase/rewrite than our slow but cheap HDs.

So I just don't see SSDs replacing HDs entirely. A company like BackBlaze switching to SSDs makes no sense. Nor does it make sense for me, with a current possible capacity of 56TB for a cheese grater Mac Pro for ~$1800

Disagree. I just bought a 7.68TB SSD for $1000 bux. Still more expensive, but in the right realm now.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JQ2F2WG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And the price is dropping fast, ug, already available for around $900:
https://www.nothingbutsavings.com/P...MI2viJnbG-4QIVA4GzCh3KvQ_TEAkYASABEgKhIvD_BwE


Also disagree on the lifetime. The latest enterprise SSDs like the above are designed for high pounding/database use.

https://www.micron.com/solutions/technical-briefs/micron-5210-ion-ssd

Following is link to PDF on wear:
https://www.micron.com/-/media/clie...10_ssd_vs_hdd_endurance_white_paper.pdf?la=en

 

[Ted13]

Disagree. I just bought a 7.68TB SSD for $1000 bux. Still more expensive, but in the right realm now
....
Following is link to PDF on wear:
https://www.micron.com/-/media/clie...10_ssd_vs_hdd_endurance_white_paper.pdf?la=en

Thanks for all the info: clearly I haven't been paying attention.

Indeed your answer points to Apple's 2019(?) 'modular" Mac Pro will be SSD only, no matter what. I already thought it would be SSD only, but now I have much more optimistic view of the future, so long as it has SSDs as readily user replaceable as on the cheese grater Mac Pro.

 

[Boomcha]

Reporting that Western Digital WD8003FFBX (8TB Red Pro) also doesn't mount after warm boot even with the tape trick.
I'm not a fan of Seagate, otherwise I would change but these WD drives work normally just not inside the Mac Pro 5,1 after a reboot, cold boot they are fine.

 

[h9826790]

Reporting that Western Digital WD8003FFBX (8TB Red Pro) also doesn't mount after warm boot even with the tape trick.
I'm not a fan of Seagate, otherwise I would change but these WD drives work normally just not inside the Mac Pro 5,1 after a reboot, cold boot they are fine.

For info, WD 8TB Red WD80EFZX-68UW8N0 is working flawlessly now on my cMP without pin 3 fix.

 

[guygizmo]

I can contribute and say that I have a 2009 Mac Pro (running 2010 firmware in order to install Sierra) running macOS 10.12.6 and I have four internal hard drives. Three of them won't mount on a warm boot, but all mount on a cold boot.

Disabling trim did not fix the problem.

One of the drives is connected to the SATA connector in the optical drive bay and it does not fix the problem.

As an experiment, I tried delaying the computer booting to macOS after it powers on using rEFInd and by holding the option key to bring up the drive selection screen, and both of those sadly did not fix the problem.

Of the three drives that won't mount on a warm boot, one is a 4 TB HGST drive, and two are 4 TB Western Digital drives.

The one that does work is an almost identical 4 TB HGST drive. There's no rhyme or reason as to why one of these drives works and the other doesn't!

I hope that someday I'll be able to fix this problem. It's quite annoying!

 

[mikehalloran]

Disabling trim did not fix the problem.

No reason that it should.

 

[krakman]

I can contribute and say that I have a 2009 Mac Pro (running 2010 firmware in order to install Sierra) running macOS 10.12.6 and I have four internal hard drives. Three of them won't mount on a warm boot, but all mount on a cold boot.

Disabling trim did not fix the problem.

One of the drives is connected to the SATA connector in the optical drive bay and it does not fix the problem.

As an experiment, I tried delaying the computer booting to macOS after it powers on using rEFInd and by holding the option key to bring up the drive selection screen, and both of those sadly did not fix the problem.

Of the three drives that won't mount on a warm boot, one is a 4 TB HGST drive, and two are 4 TB Western Digital drives.

The one that does work is an almost identical 4 TB HGST drive. There's no rhyme or reason as to why one of these drives works and the other doesn't!

I hope that someday I'll be able to fix this problem. It's quite annoying!

did you try the "tape over pin 3" trick


personally i use a menu bar app called Mountain which allows me to set "do no mount drive on start up" this setting allows the HD to survive a warm reboot.

it works for me because I use my 10tb WD drive as an archive drive so i only mount it to the desktop when needed.