Macrumors , an Apple fan site has become the most toxic Apple community I have seen and almost anti Apple

[Scepticalscribe]

But, @turbineseaplane, (and others), to my mind, there is a significant difference between holding a position that Apple sometimes produces products that some may consider over-priced (a stance that can be argued for, and against, quite reasonably), and therefore deciding not to buy this product, on the one hand, and sitting in (negative) judgment on whether someone else chooses to buy, or decides to purchase, this product, on the other.

To me, it is entirely unnecessary, and wholly redundant to pass such judgments (and make offensive assumptions - and thus, judgments - on someone else's financial resources, when, in fact, how someone else chooses to spend, or not spend, their money is none of anybody else's business), and those posts do serve to render the atmosphere of some threads that bit more unpleasant, and sometimes, makes them seem downright toxic.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think there's a difference between "this product is overpriced and a waste of money" and "anyone who would buy this overpriced is a fool wasting their money". It might be subtle, but the former is very much focused on the product, the latter is focused on the people. I'm not saying we need stricter moderation, but I think this is the kind of thing @fatTribble is getting at.

Bravo.

Very well said.

You have drawn a very necessary distinction and expressed it very well.

 

[turbineseaplane]

But, @turbineseaplane, (and others), to my mind, there is a significant difference between holding a position that Apple sometimes produces products that some may consider over-priced (a stance that can be argued for, and against, quite reasonably), and therefore deciding not to buy this product, on the one hand, and sitting in (negative) judgment on what someone else chooses, or decides to purchase this product, on the other.

To me, it is entirely unnecessary, and wholly redundant to pass such judgments (and make offensive assumptions - and thus, judgments - on someone else's financial resources, when, in fact, how someone else chooses to spend, or not spend, their money is none of anybody else's business), and those posts do serve to render the atmosphere of some threads that bit more unpleasant, and sometimes, makes them seem downright toxic.

I'm not really disagreeing, but I don't know how you enforce this.

What would the rule be that isn't just fully subjective?

It's also sliding really close to just getting endless reports for anything someone thinks is "too negative" depending upon their particular viewpoint.

I really don't have some big opinion here honestly
I learned long ago to just ignore people who bother me and move on and enjoy conversing with everyone else.

Has worked pretty well for 16 years now (longer actually, as I originally had a different account when the forum was super new)

 

[B S Magnet]

because people are very personally attached to their favorite products/companies and they see a criticism of a product or the company as a criticism of them

This is not really a MR problem. This is a personal-level, individual problem (that is: an individual’s inability to distinguish complaints about a product/service from themselves, a consumer of that product/service). This would generally fall beyond any forum’s remit.

 

[Weaselboy]

So the question is, do posts that demean "groups" get modded?

It depends a great deal on context.

For example, if there is a thread about the AVP and some in the thread are expressing how happy they are with their purchase and they feel like it was money well spent. Then someone posts, "I can't believe the Apple apologists here defending this thing." We (mods) would take the position this person is calling others in the thread apologists in violation of the insult rule.

They include telling people to shut up, describing a member as an ignorant person (rather than ignorant about a particular topic) or obtuse or as an apologist, and being extremely or repeatedly rude or sarcastic.

Excerpt ^ from the insult rule.

If you just stay away from negative comments about other forum members, you generally won't run afoul of the rules.

 

[turbineseaplane]

For example, if there is a thread about the AVP and some in the thread are expressing how happy they are with their purchase and they feel like it was money well spent. Then someone posts, "I can't believe the Apple apologists here defending this thing." We (mods) would take the position this person is calling others in the thread apologists in violation of the insult rule.

What's the mod stance if someone replies in such a thread with:

"I think this thing is overpriced and a poor value -- to me it's a ripoff"

 

[Scepticalscribe]

What is wrong with an occasional reminder (from the staff) to request forum participants to focus on discussion of the product and refrain from judging the person?

Just as in football (soccer) a referee would recommend (and enforce) the principle that one should play the ball, (and kick the ball), not the person/player.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

What's the mod stance if someone replies in such a thread with:

"I think this thing is overpriced and a poor value -- to me it's a ripoff"

To me, there is a striking, marked, and considerable difference between stating: "I think that this thing is overpriced and poor value - to me, it is a ripoff", and, to write, "I think that anyone buying this overpriced product is an idiot", or, equally egregious, "I think that anyone who can't afford to buy it is a loser".

The former criticises the product (and its pricing), which - irrespective of whether or not I agree - is a perfectly reasonable stance and position to hold.

The latter simply casts judgment on the people who choose to buy - or, decide not to buy, as the case is - the product, and judges them (negatively) - and their actions - as a consequence, which I do not believe is either appropriate or courteous, let alone respectful.

 

[turbineseaplane]

To me, there is a striking, marked, and considerable difference between stating: "I think that this thing is overpriced and poor value - to me, it is a ripoff", and, to write, "I think that anyone buying this overpriced product is an idiot", or, equally egregious, "I think that anyone who can't afford to buy it is a loser".

I agree with you completely, that's why I asked

I want to make sure it's still ok to hold a negative opinion about a product and state that "I, myself, consider it to be poor value/ripoff/overpriced", etc -- whatever strong language one uses to express their opinion..

That has to be allowed to be said, or we aren't on a discussion forum anymore.

My example above - I promise you some would not like me saying that (because they bought x/y/z and LOVE IT) and would report it for being "negative" -- even if it were MY opinion about MY experience or view on a product.

On a product. Not a person...
But... people blur that line in their minds because...

Apple customers, somewhat strangely, can have a tendency to tie their purchases onto their personal identities. It can be a bit like Tesla folks in that way

Say something negative about Apple or an Apple product and you have some folks literally taking it "personally"

 

[Weaselboy]

What's the mod stance if someone replies in such a thread with:

"I think this thing is overpriced and a poor value -- to me it's a ripoff"

Not even close to a rule violation to post that once in a thread.

I can think of some cases where someone was posting comments like that word for word in multiple threads, or multiple times in the same thread and we decided it was trolling (done just to provoke). This would be a judgement call, typically discussed among multiple moderators.

If you posted, "This thing is a piece of crap", word for word in every news thread about the AVP, at some point we (mods) are going to conclude, "Okay we get you don't like it, but now you are just posting to annoy others, and it is trolling."

 

[turbineseaplane]

Not even close to a rule violation to post that once in a thread.

I can think of some cases where someone was posting comments like that word for word in multiple threads, or multiple times in the same thread and we decided it was trolling (done just to provoke). This would be a judgement call, typically discussed among multiple moderators.

If you posted, "This thing is a piece of crap", word for word in every news thread about the AVP, at some point we (mods) are going to conclude, "Okay we get you don't like it, but now you are just posting to annoy others, and it is trolling."

Sounds perfectly handled to me

 

[B S Magnet]

…and, to write, "I think that anyone buying this overpriced product is an idiot", or, equally egregious, "I think that anyone who can't afford to buy it is a loser".

Or my favourite over on the Early Intel Macs forum, which I’ve witnessed come up at least twice, maybe thrice over the past couple of years:

The commenter, not ordinarily on the EIM forum, derides people for wanting to continue to use their Macs which have fallen beyond Apple’s “vintage” support level, with language like, “People still using old Macs like on here do it for because they’re on a budget (or have low incomes).”

At least one of those instances was later moderated.

Foul classism connotations notwithstanding, those remarks are utterly dismissive of why folks on the EIM forum prefer to continue using Macs they have for any number of reasons, but chief among them:

1. They’ve been reliable and sturdy and can handle everything thrown at them;
2. they prefer specific versatilities not easily possible with newer models (like having a partition with Mojave to run 32-bit applications; having a model with an on-board FW800 port; or running peripheral equipment for which no updates to driver/kext support continued after a certain version of macOS);
3. they have parts which can be upgraded/replaced; and/or because
4. they recognize the folly in upgrading every 18–36 months and the deferred impacts of disposing the replaced at such a fervent pace.

Remarks which casually assess classist motive to individual decisions around what they use (consume) is really not a civil move in any collegial discussion.

 

[rin67630]

But I also think some people take any criticism or dislike of a product as a personal affront

Me too. Apple produces polarizing products and that includes some negativity.
One should be able to differentiate between a dissatisfied user and someone who just trolls without having ever used Apple's devices/software, that isn't that hard.
On the other side, trolling on everything not being Apple and personal attacks against people expressing negative opinions exist here as well.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I don't think it's a fair analysis to say that some people just don't want there to be any criticism of Apple ever. There are just a large portion of active users on this site who are 90% or more negative in everything they post. And they flood the threads with the same comments, over and over and over again, whether the topic calls for it or not.

There are people in this very thread who used the opportunity to revive the 8 gb criticism of Apple laptops, going so far as to call it "criminal." Again, off topic, over-the-top, not productive.

Hard to moderate? Perhaps. But it's having a dramatic affect on the quality of conversations here. And to think that won't have a long-term macrumors brand hit would be shortsighted, in my opinion. Or maybe that's the brand identity that MacRumors wants to cultivate? Perhaps.

 

[za9ra22]

Yes, I do agree, and in general, these types of posts are moderated, as they should be. The "personalized commentary" often comes about because people are very personally attached to their favorite products/companies and they see a criticism of a product or the company as a criticism of them, so they are (in their minds) then given license to personally insult/demean the user who posted said criticism.

I do think there is a problem with page one "hot takes" and "Steve Jobs is spinning in his grave" negative trolls who have nothing valuable to contribute to any discussion. But I also think some people take any criticism or dislike of a product as a personal affront, and those aren't the same issue.

I think one distinct causation of personal attachment to a product is that those who bought one have, quite literally, invested in it. This would, I think, be bound to result in distinct polarization when confronted with criticisms from others who haven't.

However, there isn't an excuse for any disagreement being moved from the product to the person. We don't know each other well enough for anyone here to think they can fairly judge another. Even if they could, a public place such as this is not where to do it.

 

[za9ra22]

Trolling and personal attacks on people are against the rules and always should be dealt with. of course.

It's a whole different thing to demand moderation of folks who have opinions, perhaps very strong ones, you disagree with, even if vehemently. (100% not referring to you, even though I quoted you)

Indeed, I completely agree with this. I have zero problem with opinions others have and give voice to, even when I don't agree - possibly especially when I don't because it's more interesting and I learn more that way. But I do have a problem with those who direct their thoughts, frustrations and disagreements at others, and not the subject.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Trolling is not just a case of making something explicity personal.

Trolling happens when the intent of the comment or overall participation is to enflame conversation in general.

As I mentioned above, if I were to go to a Harley Davidson site (I'm not talking about an official HD site) and the majority of my participation were to call Harley Davidsons "poorly built, overly priced junk" or the equivalent, that would, in itself, be trolling. If that's how I feel about HD, then there's really very little purpose, other than trolling, to be participating in a site like that.

The same is true here on MacRumors. Apple builds products. This is not a political discussion forum (excepting of course specifically political discussions like the EU.) There's actually no need to "debate" these products; some dissention is fine, of course. But as with all products, you simply don't buy it if it's too expensive, doesn't do what you need it to do, etc. If you don't like it, your remedy is to not buy it. Same as it is with a Harley, a Mercedes, a Condominium, or a meal in a restaurant.

This idea that we are here to "debate" products is silly. Constructive criticism? All day long; but it's obvious who wants to be productive in these forums and who doesn't. If you're recognized as someone who generally likes Apple products and occassionally comes in with a criticism, that will be accepted all day long. But if the overwhelming majority of your posts are to criticize Apple and their products, that is trolling.

Just like it would be on the site of any other business that sells products.

If you're here because you think Apple is too big, or Apple is too mean, or Apple needs to be taken down a notch, or Fanboys are annoying, or Apple is only for elitist snobs, then I'd submit you're here to be a troll.

 

[turbineseaplane]

If you're here because you think Apple is too big, or Apple is too mean, or Apple needs to be taken down a notch, or Fanboys are annoying, or Apple is only for elitist snobs, then I'd submit you're here to be a troll.

I'm going to have disagree here a little bit.

One can be an enormous fan of Apple overall, and many of their products current and past, and absolutely still think they've become a bit too big, powerful and perhaps need to be reined in a bit. That is in no way being a troll.

Some of Apple's biggest and longest running fans in the podcast space often feel exactly that way (notably ATP)
Certainly many developers around the world feel this way (ATP guys included)

 

[fatTribble]

Trolling is not just a case of making something explicity personal.

Trolling happens when the intent of the comment or overall participation is to enflame conversation in general.

As I mentioned above, if I were to go to a Harley Davidson site (I'm not talking about an official HD site) and the majority of my participation were to call Harley Davidsons "poorly built, overly priced junk" or the equivalent, that would, in itself, be trolling. If that's how I feel about HD, then there's really very little purpose, other than trolling, to be participating in a site like that.

The same is true here on MacRumors. Apple builds products. This is not a political discussion forum (excepting of course specifically political discussions like the EU.) There's actually no need to "debate" these products; some dissention is fine, of course. But as with all products, you simply don't buy it if it's too expensive, doesn't do what you need it to do, etc. If you don't like it, your remedy is to not buy it. Same as it is with a Harley, a Mercedes, a Condominium, or a meal in a restaurant.

This idea that we are here to "debate" products is silly. Constructive criticism? All day long; but it's obvious who wants to be productive in these forums and who doesn't. If you're recognized as someone who generally likes Apple products and occassionally comes in with a criticism, that will be accepted all day long. But if the overwhelming majority of your posts are to criticize Apple and their products, that is trolling.

Just like it would be on the site of any other business that sells products.

If you're here because you think Apple is too big, or Apple is too mean, or Apple needs to be taken down a notch, or Fanboys are annoying, or Apple is only for elitist snobs, then I'd submit you're here to be a troll.

I’ve seen many times the overtly negative post from someone about Apple or a product. Then I realize the account was made less than a day ago and every single one of their posts is just as negative.

It’s not that I find many of the posts personally offensive. I think they clog the forum because they provide no real value or information and they just add negativity.

On the other hand, someone who posts about legitimate issues with a product can be helpful to anyone in the market to buy one.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I’ve seen many times the overtly negative post from someone about Apple or a product. Then I realize the account was made less than a day ago and every single one of their posts is just as negative.

I've seen the exact same sort of thing, but with overwhelming (almost unnatural) praise and exuberance for Apple and/or a given new product.

AVP, for instance, seemed to bring out absolute armies of "barely used, but somehow 10 years old" accounts.
It was really really weird.

 

[fatTribble]

I'm going to have disagree here a little bit.

One can be an enormous fan of Apple overall, and many of their products current and past, and absolutely still think they've become a bit too big, powerful and perhaps need to be reined in a bit. That is in no way being a troll.

Some of Apple's biggest and longest running fans in the podcast space often feel exactly that way (notably ATP)
Certainly many developers around the world feel this way (ATP guys included)

To me it’s the pattern. Negative posts here and there that include some explanation or facts seems fine. Just blurting out nothing but unexplained negative posts is not useful to anyone.

 

[fatTribble]

I've seen the exact same sort of thing, but with overwhelming (almost unnatural) praise and exuberance for Apple and/or a given new product.

AVP, for instance, seemed to bring out absolute armies of "barely used, but somehow 10 years old" accounts.
It was really really weird.

I did notice some newbie accounts recently that were 10 years old. They must just be quiet 🤭

 

[turbineseaplane]

It feels like we've run this topic out a bit

We are starting to do circle on the same ground - lol

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I'm going to have disagree here a little bit.

One can be an enormous fan of Apple overall, and many of their products current and past, and absolutely still think they've become a bit too big, powerful and perhaps need to be reined in a bit. That is in no way being a troll.

Some of Apple's biggest and longest running fans in the podcast space often feel exactly that way (notably ATP)
Certainly many developers around the world feel this way (ATP guys included)

Unless you're using that sentiment in regards to how you're judging and participating in threads that have nothing to do with that sentiment.

So, if you're taking shots at Apple in a thread about the AVP, when your real motivation is not to discuss the specific product, but to discourage others from liking it or discussing it. That is trolling.

There are very few threads on MacRumors that deal with issues such as "Apple is TOO BIG" but that or similar sentiments get brought up over and over and over again in threads.

Also...don't like the AVP? Say it once or twice and move on. But if you enter almost every thread and repeat that opinion 10 or 20 times on the thread, that is trolling.

 

[fatTribble]

It feels like we've run this topic out a bit

We are starting to do circle on the same ground - lol

Meh, maybe so, but I get the impression this negativity has been bothering a lot of people.
It sometimes feels good to know you’re not alone in your frustration.

Personally, I’ve found this thread and particularly the posts today to be very helpful.
To me it’s helped to clarify exactly what it is that’s so frustrating rather than a general feeling.

Maybe too this will result in more posts being reported to Moderators which might improve things.
And maybe to understand better what not to report.