Macrumors , an Apple fan site has become the most toxic Apple community I have seen and almost anti Apple

[KaliYoni]

"People need to think before posting"

Over the last couple of years, I've decided that a meaningful number of posters on MR are bots.

 

[fatTribble]

I'm willing to bet a year's pay that 99.99% of the people here don't know the first thing about what's going on inside Apple. And the most ill-informed, cynical ones always seem to be the loudest about what they think they know. When someone is ill informed but driven to be "right" all the time, they just make things up and squeak the loudest so that everyone thinks they know what they're talking about. It doesn't mean they do.

Someone else mentioned they wish people would think about why they're here before they posted. I'll add more to the list:

1. I'd love if people would stop complaining about the price at EVERY launch. Apple products are more expensive than their competitors' products. That's been a given since the 70s and it's probably never going to change. We all know what the rough prices of Apple products are at this point. Let's all stop feigning sticker shock--the theatrics over this are so unnecessary.

2. I wish people would let Steve Jobs rest. He died a long time ago. There is absolutely no way to know what he would do in 2024. I can't even imagine someone of his temperament running a company in modern times. The further out we get from his tenure at Apple, the more I realize his greatest creation was actually Apple itself. I still love watching his old keynotes and digging up dirt about his product vision, but he's gone. There are others running the company now.

3. I wish there was something better where logical, normal people could talk about this stuff, but that's a pipe dream.

I agree with every single word. The discussion of price comes up so much that it has become meaningless. Yes we get it. You want the best but you don’t want to pay for it. My experience with Apple has been almost entirely under Cook (although we used Apple IIe in school). But I laugh at every post that tells us how they know exactly what Mr. Jobs would or wouldn’t do.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm willing to bet a year's pay that 99.99% of the people here don't know the first thing about what's going on inside Apple. And the most ill-informed, cynical ones always seem to be the loudest about what they think they know. When someone is ill informed but driven to be "right" all the time, they just make things up and squeak the loudest so that everyone thinks they know what they're talking about. It doesn't mean they do.

Someone else mentioned they wish people would think about why they're here before they posted. I'll add more to the list:

1. I'd love if people would stop complaining about the price at EVERY launch. Apple products are more expensive than their competitors' products. That's been a given since the 70s and it's probably never going to change. We all know what the rough prices of Apple products are at this point. Let's all stop feigning sticker shock--the theatrics over this are so unnecessary.

2. I wish people would let Steve Jobs rest. He died a long time ago. There is absolutely no way to know what he would do in 2024. I can't even imagine someone of his temperament running a company in modern times. The further out we get from his tenure at Apple, the more I realize his greatest creation was actually Apple itself. I still love watching his old keynotes and digging up dirt about his product vision, but he's gone. There are others running the company now.

3. I wish there was something better where logical, normal people could talk about this stuff, but that's a pipe dream.

I did software development for over 20 years. The company where the software quality was the worst was the company with a bunch of recent graduates who had been taught theory and how to think outside the box, but not about style or conformity. Apple and Microsoft and Google all seem like that.

I'm too often surprised at how no one at Apple noticed how bad their software is malfunctioning. However, they don't find some typical consumers to test their software. They only have knowledgeable people test their software, until it's too late.

Complaints about price are one thing, (and yes, Apple is - or was - a premium product), but, on this forum and elsewhere, what really irks me are those who sneer at people who grumble about price.

A little empathy wouldn't go amiss, not least as many people are only two or three wage cheques away (often through no fault of their own) from having to face financial struggles.

 

[joeblow7777]

what I have observed among people I talk to is a certain duality: you either hate or love Apple, and the haters tend to be stronger.

As with many things in life, haters tend to be louder.

 

[Analog Kid]

"Macrumors , an Apple fan site has become the most toxic Apple community I have seen and almost anti Apple"

You had me right up until "almost".

 

[fatTribble]

Empathy and compassion are certainly important especially with friends and those close to us, but on an Apple forum I am more concerned about whether the person owns a Vision Pro and knows what they’re talking about or if they’re just here to antagonize others.

 

[spiderman0616]

Empathy and compassion are certainly important especially with friends and those close to us, but on an Apple forum I am more concerned about whether the person owns a Vision Pro and knows what they’re talking about or if they’re just here to antagonize others.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how many commenters here work for competitors to Apple and just try to sow seeds of negativity wherever possible. I know it goes on, I'm just never sure to what extent.

 

[panjandrum]

It’s getting a bit ridiculous. Half the people I would ask , why are you even on an Apple forum if you down even own Apple products or don’t like them at all

Difference between a fan and a fanboy, explained in a single sentence.

 

[B S Magnet]

Empathy and compassion are certainly important especially with friends and those close to us, but on an Apple forum I am more concerned about whether the person owns a Vision Pro and knows what they’re talking about or if they’re just here to antagonize others.

The tone of the room which you describe is an elective choice on behalf of sub-forum regulars. Their collective presence as regulars set that tone.

The competitive, antagonistic tenor of threads you‘re describing are not generally found on the Early Intel Macs and PowerPC Macs sub-forums where I spend most my MR forums time reading and posting. They tend to be welcoming places where belittling, taunting, trolling, and antagonism are widely frowned upon.

That isn’t to say folks on the other sub-forums should be hopping over to those two sub-forums. There is, however, something in the oft-heard refrain over there of MR forum users who expressed past disillusionment with the above, anti-social patterns and antagonistic tone they faced on other sub-forums and also express a fear they might get some of that on there, too. What we do is strive to reassure them that they are welcome and that kind of conduct is frowned upon.

We also get the occasional new member who, when asking a support question, introduces themselves along the lines of, “Please don’t look down at me, but I have this question about to do something.” They do this because they’ve either witnessed antagonism and gradations of hostility as a lurker on other forums (including elsewhere on MR), or they’ve dealt with it directly.

The point is there’s a lot to be learnt and valued in yanking out that tone from the mix. Some of that comes with taking a rest beat to consider a way to reply to a post without lambasting or pin-pricking at the person to whom one is making that reply. Some of it also comes from resisting that temptation to try to flex or flaunt what one has as a side-loading of their own inferiority complex projecting into the discussion. All of this points toward a sort of golden rule-adjacent approach.

 

[fatTribble]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how many commenters here work for competitors to Apple and just try to sow seeds of negativity wherever possible. I know it goes on, I'm just never sure to what extent.

Absolutely! Some of the posts are so obvious. The account was created within the past day. The post is over the top negative saying how the product is a failure and it indicates Apple’s demise. It’s formulaic. I actually reported one last week not knowing exactly what the rules were. They were suspended within the hour.

 

[spiderman0616]

The tone of the room which you describe is an elective choice on behalf of sub-forum regulars. The competitive, antagonistic tenor you‘re describing are not generally found on the Early Intel Macs and PowerPC Macs sub-forums where I spend most my time reading and posting. They tend to be welcoming places where belittling, taunting, trolling, and antagonism are widely frowned upon.

That isn’t to say folks on the other sub-forums should be hopping over to those two sub-forums. There is, however, something in the oft-heard refrain over there of MR forum users who expressed past disillusionment with the above, anti-social patterns they faced on other sub-forums and express a fear they might get some of that on there, too.

We also get the occasional new member who, when asking a support question, introduces themselves along the lines of, “Please don’t look down at me, but I have this question about to do something.” They do this because they’ve either witnessed antagonism and gradations of hostility as a lurker on other forums (including elsewhere on MR), or they’ve dealt with it directly.

The point is there’s a lot to be learnt and valued in yanking out that tone from the mix. Some of that comes with taking a rest beat to consider a way to reply to a post without lambasting or pin-pricking at the person to whom one is making that reply. Some of it also comes from resisting that temptation to try to flex or flaunt what one has as a side-loading of their own inferiority complex projecting into the discussion. All of this points toward a sort of golden rule-adjacent approach.

I have found the same--in the Mac-related forums, there is usually plenty of informative conversation and sometimes it even gets really technical and can become a sort of master class. I've learned a lot about the inner workings of macOS and the Mac itself on those forums. That, however, is literally the only sub forum here I will go to if I really want help. Chances are if I'm having an issue with my Mac, someone there has had the same issue and knows what to do.

Hope over to, let's say, the iPad forums. Almost every thread there gets hijacked by someone saying "Why do you need an iPad? That's not a real computer! iPads are toys for kids not real tools!" (Someone will probably even use this post to make that argument and start trying to bait me into an iPad vs. Mac war.)

These days though, I'm tending to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this specific site. There are helpful people here. They are FAR FAR FAR outweighed by the trolls. Looking at the whole package as an Apple rumors site/fan forum, it's just garbage. It now follows the same MO as all the other Apple rumor sites: Post reviews with the best clickbait titles you can think of, fill every piece of content with an insane amount of affiliate links, and when arguing and speculation ensues, let the trolls run the place because they're actually the ones who keep the lights on.

Internet tech reporting, and internet reporting on the whole, has ended in massive failure. The only real way to get trustworthy information and honest discussion is to pay for the content.

 

[spiderman0616]

Absolutely! Some of the posts are so obvious. The account was created within the past day. The post is over the top negative saying how the product is a failure and it indicates Apple’s demise. It’s formulaic. I actually reported one last week not knowing exactly what the rules were. They were suspended within the hour.

Yes, but they won't flag entire posts as troll garbage. Like the one in the Vision Pro forums that is asking for people to vote on when the Vision Pro will be cancelled as a product. That bs is allowed to thrive and flourish and collect pages and pages and pages of misinformation. Nobody cares.

 

[B S Magnet]

I have found the same--in the Mac-related forums, there is usually plenty of informative conversation and sometimes it even gets really technical and can become a sort of master class. I've learned a lot about the inner workings of macOS and the Mac itself on those forums. That, however, is literally the only sub forum here I will go to if I really want help. Chances are if I'm having an issue with my Mac, someone there has had the same issue and knows what to do.

Hope over to, let's say, the iPad forums. Almost every thread there gets hijacked by someone saying "Why do you need an iPad? That's not a real computer! iPads are toys for kids not real tools!" (Someone will probably even use this post to make that argument and start trying to bait me into an iPad vs. Mac war.)

The social culture of those sub-forums are elective, collective, and set by its regular posters, and more rigorous request for moderation on those kinds of posts could be a start toward that direction. But it has to be a collective, voluntary and, frankly, somewhat organic shift.

In other words, the regulars of those sub-forums who want to do better by the sub-forum and its community would do well to suggest in a pinned post how judgement or dismissing those users with models no longer supported by iOS or iPadOS, needs to be checked at the sub-forum’s door mat, or else they are welcome to take it somewhere else like, idk, Reddit or 1chan.

These days though, I'm tending to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this specific site. There are helpful people here. They are FAR FAR FAR outweighed by the trolls.

There’s something to that old adage, “Hurt people hurt people.”

That is, there’s nothing anyone other than the troll who can change the way the troll interacts with the world.

There are, however, tools, coupled with collective initiative, to be up-front about trolls getting get a cold, quick reception to the moderator’s inbox. But this also means regulars who want to do better by others and the sub-forum need to actually do the follow-up by walking the walk and actually reporting those needless trolling posts whenever said person wants to — I’m making up a neologism here — enmiserate others (that is: “to make others miserable or agitated” — sort of an extension on the idea of sadism).

Looking at the whole package as an Apple rumors site/fan forum, it's just garbage. It now follows the same MO as all the other Apple rumor sites: Post reviews with the best clickbait titles you can think of, fill every piece of content with an insane amount of affiliate links, and when arguing and speculation ensues, let the trolls run the place because they're actually the ones who keep the lights on.

Other than Mark Gurman (and that person inside the PRC who’d tweet development verification test prototypes), there are nearly no channels remaining for credible, tantalizing rumours these days. It is a far, far cry from 20, 25, and 30 years ago.

Internet tech reporting, and internet reporting on the whole, has ended in massive failure. The only real way to get trustworthy information and honest discussion is to pay for the content.

Perhaps, but micro-transaction fatigue is also quite real.

 

[JapanApple]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how many commenters here work for competitors to Apple and just try to sow seeds of negativity wherever possible. I know it goes on, I'm just never sure to what extent.

I highly doubt there are such people here. The way people express themselves is more general population than competitors posting on this site. I do understand your point about how people comment on this site. I don't believe it's that high of a user group on this site.

 

[I7guy]

Yes, but they won't flag entire posts as troll garbage. Like the one in the Vision Pro forums that is asking for people to vote on when the Vision Pro will be cancelled as a product. That bs is allowed to thrive and flourish and collect pages and pages and pages of misinformation. Nobody cares.

MR imo, does want to censor, even if some don’t like the topic. I think it’s a fair question to ask, imo.

 

[za9ra22]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how many commenters here work for competitors to Apple and just try to sow seeds of negativity wherever possible. I know it goes on, I'm just never sure to what extent.

In think it is far more constructive to consider the argument being put, not the person making it. A part of the reason macrumors becomes toxic is that we often respond to our perception-usually poorly founded-of the motive of someone who we don't have a clue about. Given that none of us can really know, just at best assume, these responses say far more about us and our motives than others and theirs.

 

[Mainsail]

When I first joined MR, it seemed like most of the threads were "how to" questions or problem solving requests, with helpful comments and suggestions posted. Not so much anymore.

All MR has to do is post a notification about a MacBook on sale at BB or Amazon, and you will get 6 pages of comments about the "criminal" level of storage and memory in the base models. One commenter tried to diffuse it early by saying something like; "Complaints about base RAM and Storage in 3, 2, ,1...." But, sure enough, the flood gates opened. Kind of funny and a little sad at the same time.

It does not seem to take much to get triggered in these forms now a days. TBH, I find myself getting sucked in as well, so I can't cast stones. And, this triggering thing is true of the internet in general not just MR.

 

[turbineseaplane]

All MR has to do is post a notification about a MacBook on sale at BB or Amazon, and you will get 6 pages of comments about the "criminal" level of storage and memory in the base models.

But in that example, it's 100% understandable.

Apple does ship the base models with somewhat gimped specs, fully locked down, and then overcharges (almost criminally) for component upgrades.

The complaining on that valid point would stop if Apple would stop (or at least tamp down) some of these practices.

 

[B S Magnet]

There is always a place for constructive criticism in an open discussion.

Drawing notice to the under-equipping of base models across Apple’s many line-ups in the post-soldered/T2 era (and how this produces a chain of long-term problems and a reduction in value for the use-value of the product) is a constructive criticism for their adoption of this merchandising practice.

If this point as this gets brought up regularly in different threads across different forums (MR and otherwise) and by many contributors, then this presents a consumer-oriented good case argument, not a grievance unless the total content of a post amounts to “Apple’s 8GB door entry on Macs sucks.”

 

[turbineseaplane]

Literally anywhere folks talk about Macs will have discussion, frustration and criticism of their base specs

That is telling

Even Apple podcasters, who usually fawn all over Apple, are critical of their base specs and upgrade pricing.
It's almost a running joke.

Whether it's iCloud 5GB base or the length of time iOS devices started at 16GB storage...and now the 8/256 run on Macs...Apple are notoriously stingy on specs and greedy on upgrade pricing.

It's a constant complaint and frustration about Apple, even from supporters.

 

[I7guy]

There is always a place for constructive criticism in an open discussion.

Drawing notice to the under-equipping of base models across Apple’s many line-ups in the post-soldered/T2 era (and how this produces a chain of long-term problems and a reduction in value for the use-value of the product) is a constructive criticism for their adoption of this merchandising practice.

If this point as this gets brought up regularly in different threads across different forums (MR and otherwise) and by many contributors, then this presents a consumer-oriented good case argument, not a grievance unless the total content of a post amounts to “Apple’s 8GB door entry on Macs sucks.”

Legitimate construction criticism does not contribute to a toxic environment, especially when conveyed in a neutral tone.

 

[bousozoku]

There is always a place for constructive criticism in an open discussion.

Drawing notice to the under-equipping of base models across Apple’s many line-ups in the post-soldered/T2 era (and how this produces a chain of long-term problems and a reduction in value for the use-value of the product) is a constructive criticism for their adoption of this merchandising practice.

If this point as this gets brought up regularly in different threads across different forums (MR and otherwise) and by many contributors, then this presents a consumer-oriented good case argument, not a grievance unless the total content of a post amounts to “Apple’s 8GB door entry on Macs sucks.”

Constructive criticism is welcome.

Repeatedly whinging/whining about Apple's continual pricing policy that isn't going to change is annoying.

Apple tried economy models with the Performa line and it almost sunk them, along with confusing loads of people and making assembly convoluted.

I get that those buying an M1/M2/M3 SoC want a fully-upgradeable system, but that isn't the future, and it's what Apple started with the Retina MacBook Pro models in late 2012.

I wish everyone would just get along but from what I've seen of hundreds of people at the check lane, it's not getting better.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Constructive criticism is welcome.

Repeatedly whinging/whining about Apple's continual pricing policy that isn't going to change is annoying.

Apple tried economy models with the Performa line and it almost sunk them, along with confusing loads of people and making assembly convoluted.

I get that those buying an M1/M2/M3 SoC want a fully-upgradeable system, but that isn't the future, and it's what Apple started with the Retina MacBook Pro models in late 2012.

I wish everyone would just get along but from what I've seen of hundreds of people at the check lane, it's not getting better.

To be clear, I'm not even sure anyone is asking for economy models ... or even loads of upgrade-ability.

I know I personally would like socketed NVMe, but I realize I'm in the minority for sure.
It might come back in all the right to repair stuff, who knows?

I think the frustration comes with the full leaning into lockdown + tremendously overpriced component upgrades.

All that said, I do think it's ok to keep harping on their egregious overcharging on component upgrades.
One never knows what has an impact and if something is out of line I'm all for bringing it up as often as need be.

I don't know -- I'm just a little tapped out on all the attempted gatekeeping on "what topics" or "what tone" is "ok"
(I'm not really talking about you or your post here, just more generally speaking now)

It's so maddening to see people use the extremely tired "just use Android/Windows if you don't like it!" retort to any sort of criticisms.

It's low effort posting that contributes zilch and is really just trying to shut down those they disagree with.

 

[I7guy]

[…]

It's so maddening to see people use the extremely tired "just use Android/Windows if you don't like it!" retort to any sort of criticisms.

It's low effort posting that contributes zilch and is really just trying to shut down those they disagree with.

To be fair it’s also the low effort criticism and “whining” that’s causing the low effort “just use android/windows”. Don’t know if it’s chicken or egg, but it does exist.

 

[XboxEvolved]

So you have to figure Macrumors is the largest and oldest Apple community out there and all things considered I feel like it's not that bad. I think a lot of what you are experiencing is two main things currently:

1) Hate for Apple because of how big they are: This is going to happen no matter what. It happened to Microsoft, it happens to oil companies, etc, etc

2) Hate for Apple because of things people may perceive as anti-consumer: There is certainly a discussion to be had here and this has been going on with Apple to some degree for quite some time even. before their ascendency to what they currently are.

3) AVP: I'd say quite a lot of us fall into this came right now, I am very critical of AVP, and I've been on this forum since 2004 and I have not once seen such a souring on an Apple product since I've been here, and especially not a new product category like this. But there are a lot of valid critiques of it, such as what is it even for, and the product and its overall execution just feels very, very, unlike Apple.

I think in some regards all three of these things warrant criticism to some degree of Apple. I also think that the most diehard fans of anything have every right to be critical of the things they love. It's kind of like you may have a family member you love but you have no problem criticizing them because it comes from a place of love and honesty.

Then again, pretty much any fanbase online will become toxic and complain a lot after awhile. I can't think of to many kinds of groups I'm in where there isn't at least a small loud minority being overcritical. Maybe the Discord Im in about bearded dragons or the subreddit?