“******tification” on this site has moved in lockstep with social media and YouTube. I think it’s probably time I stop reading/posting. The content breeds the negativity and the negativity breeds the content. I don’t think this is my crowd anymore.
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Macrumors , an Apple fan site has become the most toxic Apple community I have seen and almost anti Apple
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I haven't yet offered my thoughts about this, and I have not (and will not) read through the entire thread. Though I have observed the "anti-Apple" sentiment increasing after the launch of the Vision Pro, which I think is one of the reasons for this thread's existence in the first place.
Now, I think a distinction needs to be made between people making legitimate "anti-Apple" claims/posts - that are well-thought and have a good reason, and claims/posts made to destroy the atmosphere of a site like this (i.e., trolls). Of course, sometimes this is a difficult distinction to make, but other times, it's very obvious. What exactly are you referring to?
Another thing is, is MacRumors an "Apple fan site"? Obviously this is likely subjective, and there is no definitive answer. What does that term even mean in the first place? Who is an "Apple fan?" These are rhetorical questions, but I don't think it's safe to label every member of this site an "Apple fan."
Finally, I'd argue that whether or not a community is toxic is also subjective and up to the experience of the individual. Ultimately, a person complaining about a community they find toxic isn't going to do anything. Sure, they might prevent friends from taking part based on their presumably profound warnings and persuasion, but it works just like anything else in real life - you can do whatever you want. My point is, you can complain all you want, "MacRumors is the most unpleasant site," but what is that actually going to do?
Now, I think a distinction needs to be made between people making legitimate "anti-Apple" claims/posts - that are well-thought and have a good reason, and claims/posts made to destroy the atmosphere of a site like this (i.e., trolls). Of course, sometimes this is a difficult distinction to make, but other times, it's very obvious. What exactly are you referring to?
Another thing is, is MacRumors an "Apple fan site"? Obviously this is likely subjective, and there is no definitive answer. What does that term even mean in the first place? Who is an "Apple fan?" These are rhetorical questions, but I don't think it's safe to label every member of this site an "Apple fan."
Finally, I'd argue that whether or not a community is toxic is also subjective and up to the experience of the individual. Ultimately, a person complaining about a community they find toxic isn't going to do anything. Sure, they might prevent friends from taking part based on their presumably profound warnings and persuasion, but it works just like anything else in real life - you can do whatever you want. My point is, you can complain all you want, "MacRumors is the most unpleasant site," but what is that actually going to do?
It’s 7 pages, not 55
When possible it’s good to get a feeling for what’s already been said on a topic
It's always good etiquette in Apple communities.
My feeling is people generally take for granted all the incredible work Apple does to drive innovation these days. Apple is still making the world a better place every day of the year. They push boundaries, take bold decisions, and push to drive positive social change across all their product experiences.
I'd like to meet that Apple.
I have been reading the site quite a bit lately looking for thoughts about Vision Pro. I appreciated both the positive and the negative comments. What I didn’t appreciate were any of the comments about the people buying Vision Pro. I guess I don’t understand how that’s helpful to anyone or even interesting.
I ending up buying and keeping Vision Pro. I love it. I’m excited about it. As a retired software engineer I’m capable of understanding technology. However, I found no shortage of posts that would indicate I have too much money and I’m not very bright.
I see no toxicity in this forum. Toxicity is when forum participants are treating each other badly, which I haven't observed. In contrast to many social media such as Twitter where participants treating each other badly is rampant. Being critical of Apple here is NOT toxicity.
Not in all cases. It's a belief that gets passed around on the internet but I can quickly go to Lenovo's or Dell's websites and find products that are priced like Apple's, and maybe higher, for the same basic capability.
Yes Dell laptops often are priced above the MacBook family these days. Madness. Samsung phones are way more expensive than iPhone. And then there’s an even bigger cost when you factoring in all the data gathering/spying.
I absolutely agree that being critical of Apple is completely acceptable on a forum like this.
I’ll just say that I’m surprised you haven’t read any negative comments directly about people who buy Apple products, people who are fans of Apple products or estimations of the wealth of a buyer whether it be high or low. On the other side, I’ve seen posts telling the critics they should leave the forum.
Review the products. Leave the people alone.
It's becoming more and more unbearable. I'm on my last gasp of participation here.
It's even in full show on this very thread. There is a poster on this thread, flooding it even, who in all my experience with them has never said a kind thing about Apple at all. And yet they flood so many diffeent threads with negative, not constructive, criticism of Apple.
I once tried to start a thread in the Vision Pro forum for only constructive discussion, and the poster I'm referring to, on this thread, jumped into that conversation to try to simply derail the conversation.
I actually WANT to be able to have discussions that include constructive criticism. But that has become almost impossible here. If a person is really after "constructive" conversation, they wouldn't be 99% negative in their opinions.
It's not for me to tell mac rumors how to run their business. But I'd suggest the short-term gain of allowing toxic content in order to bump clicks is a one-way ticket to creating a swamp nobody wants to play in.
Trolling should be more tightly controlled here. Persistent, negative, off-topic discussion about Apple products should be much more tightly policed. If it were, I and others wouldn't feel the need to try to police it ourselves.
It's exhausting. And it has greatly diminished the "value" of macrumors.com to me.
It's even in full show on this very thread. There is a poster on this thread, flooding it even, who in all my experience with them has never said a kind thing about Apple at all. And yet they flood so many diffeent threads with negative, not constructive, criticism of Apple.
I once tried to start a thread in the Vision Pro forum for only constructive discussion, and the poster I'm referring to, on this thread, jumped into that conversation to try to simply derail the conversation.
I actually WANT to be able to have discussions that include constructive criticism. But that has become almost impossible here. If a person is really after "constructive" conversation, they wouldn't be 99% negative in their opinions.
It's not for me to tell mac rumors how to run their business. But I'd suggest the short-term gain of allowing toxic content in order to bump clicks is a one-way ticket to creating a swamp nobody wants to play in.
Trolling should be more tightly controlled here. Persistent, negative, off-topic discussion about Apple products should be much more tightly policed. If it were, I and others wouldn't feel the need to try to police it ourselves.
It's exhausting. And it has greatly diminished the "value" of macrumors.com to me.
@Timo_Existencia if you see a particular post you think violates the rules, please report it so the mods can take a look.
I'm not certain that the rules, as currently crafted, are sufficient to tackle the problems I currently see on MacRumors.
For example, is there a rule about persistent overwhelming negativity toward Apple?
It's become predictable that no matter the topic, the first 100 posts on a new thread will be overwhelmingly negative. What rule is in place to try to balance that? So far as I'm aware, there is no rule. But this is my point; why would I want to continue to participate on a site dedicated to discussing a product I like and support if it is overwhelmingly populated by those who hate the product and the company?
Moderating for that, in my opinion, would be in MacRumors long-term best interest. But it would require "rules" that are subjective in nature. A rule like "persistent negativity" won't be allowed. And that would violate the idea of "all opinions are equal" that some seem to think are a law of the universe.
I've used this example before: what would happen if I went onto a Harley Davidson web site and persistently called the company evil, criminal, labeled those who like Harleys "fan boys" and generally tried to disrupt and criticize a product that Harley owners loved? First, it would be silly. And second, it would absolutely be labeled trolling on that board.
Same thing should happen here. Persistent, overwhelming negativity should be labeled trolling. And moderated heavily.
Ah yes, this is a favorite of mine, and something that comes exclusively from the "positive supporters" who think they're incapable of negativity. But getting such people to look in a mirror is a tall order.
Toxic towards Apple products or toxic towards fellow users who make posts and replies?
I think the second is very true. These forums feel like an elitist place where you're constantly threading on eggshells if you actually want to create a post or to comment. Once people think you don't know something, they will come down on you like a ton of bricks and "teach you a lesson". It can become quite rude and aggressive. I've reported a couple of posts and they have been taken down.
If you feel bullied or threatened here, report the post to Admins.
I'm almost entirely in agreement with your thoughts, but this is slightly misaligned I think, if only because macrumors is not Apple's site. Indeed, if you did go there and post as you describe, you would have your posts removed, then be warned, then your account suspended or deleted if you persisted.
Your principle is correct, that this kind of persistent and overwhelming negativity should be considered trolling and dealt with accordingly. Some negativity is inevitable and entirely reasonable, but the degree to which I see personalized attacks on others' opinions and decisions, and off-topic trolling is increasing, and damaging since it draws everyone into it.
Hard to moderate because it's entirely subjective, and there does appear to be some interest in tolerating it for the sake of keeping the site more lively than it otherwise would be, but it will eventually drag the site into the mire.
I think this shows that it is in the eyes of the beholder, because I don't notice much negativity from 'positive supporters' but I do see a lot from people quick to label 'fanboys' and those with more money than sense.
The point however which I think matters isn't who it is saying what to whom, but that any form of personalized commentary to others should simply not be tolerated. It doesn't matter what side of the fence any of us are on, there should not be a license to insult and demean another.
Yes, I do agree, and in general, these types of posts are moderated, as they should be. The "personalized commentary" often comes about because people are very personally attached to their favorite products/companies and they see a criticism of a product or the company as a criticism of them, so they are (in their minds) then given license to personally insult/demean the user who posted said criticism.
I do think there is a problem with page one "hot takes" and "Steve Jobs is spinning in his grave" negative trolls who have nothing valuable to contribute to any discussion. But I also think some people take any criticism or dislike of a product as a personal affront, and those aren't the same issue.
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This is all discussing an incredibly fine line -- and a fully subjective one.
This is treading very closely to making moderation into the "thought police".
I'm not sure what kind of discussion forum we end up with if the discussions all, by rule, must have a sort of "kinda pro Apple, generally cheery, don't be too negative (even if there is ample reason to be)" vibe to them.
Trolling and personal attacks on people are against the rules and always should be dealt with. of course.
It's a whole different thing to demand moderation of folks who have opinions, perhaps very strong ones, you disagree with, even if vehemently. (100% not referring to you, even though I quoted you)
This is just my observation, but I don’t often get called a name directly or see it done to others. I’ll see some post where a person is happy with their purchase. Then the next post is someone saying how people with more money than brains will buy anything. Because it’s directed at people rather than a person it seems tolerated. But everyone gets the intent.
I've seen the same thing with the "just too poor to afford it" posts. If the post doesn't contain a "you" (i.e. targeting a specific user), it may be left up. So the question is, do posts that demean "groups" get modded? I'm not clear on the specific rules here.
That example is a comment made in general -- it's an opinion
(this is not something I've said by the way - I'm just reacting)
How one "takes it" is up to the individual
You can't just assume that's referring to the poster directly above and want the poster "punished".
Let's all have a little thicker skin than this.
We want people moderated for saying that some people are wasting their money on something they consider overpriced?
That's an opinion. That's what discussion forums are all about!
Have we become so fragile and I guess... insecure? ... that our purchases need to be validated by others ... or we might need those folks "moderated"?
What are we doing here?
What happened to just "scrolling right by" if you don't like a post?
The pandoras box this would open ... is staggeringly large
I would sure not want to be a moderator getting endless reports of things that "might demean a group", according to the reporter.
I think there's a difference between "this product is overpriced and a waste of money" and "anyone who would buy this overpriced is a fool wasting their money". It might be subtle, but the former is very much focused on the product, the latter is focused on the people. I'm not saying we need stricter moderation, but I think this is the kind of thing @fatTribble is getting at.
I don't particularly "like" someone saying "anyone who would buy this overpriced thing is a fool wasting their money", I agree and get that.
But what rule is that really breaking?
"Too mean to people... in general"?
Like, who cares if someone says that?
Disagree and move on?
I just can't fathom the level of positive reassurance we are suggesting folks need.
If someone posts here telling me I'm a moron for buying something -- my reaction is..
"And why do I care what you think about what I did with my money"?
...and I move on with my day
If they are particularly annoying I'll put 'em on ignore I guess?
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