Mandela Effect

[Juicy Box]

I think you are concentrating too much on the facts of the events of what happened to Nelson Mandela instead of the "effect" which the OP is referring to.

Of course I am concentrating on "The Mandela Effect".

No, you are not.

You are concentrating on the historical facts of Nelson Mandela, not the "Effect".

The Mandela Effect is just a name given to the phenomena where many people have a shared memory of various false events in history. The history of Nelson Mandela is just one of many things people recall differently.

I find it incomprehensible that an educated and informed person - or one who chose to inform themselves about political events - failed to realise this.

It sounds like you are getting offended by the OP's posts, which I am sure that was not the OP's intent.

If the given name of the phenomena offends you, just think of it as "Berenstain Effect", "The Gump Effect", or "Froot Loop Effect".

 

[Scepticalscribe]

No, you are not.

You are concentrating on the historical facts of Nelson Mandela, not the "Effect".

The Mandela Effect is just a name given to the phenomena where many people have a shared memory of various false events in history. The history of Nelson Mandela is just one of many things people recall differently.

It sounds like you are getting offended by the OP's posts, which I am sure that was not the OP's intent.

If the given name of the phenomena offends you, just think of it as "Berenstain Effect", "The Gump Effect", or "Froot Loop Effect".

There is a difference between remembering, choosing to remember, selecting what is considered important to remember (and one of my arguments is that this is culturally, ethnically, socially, politically, geographically, and - possibly - class based) in terms of what one chooses to remember, considers important to remember, and actually says that one remembers.

Facts matter, and not just because I am an historian by profession; historically, something either happened or it didn't (and that is - at an existential level - different to the memory of a song, or movie).

In history, there are rarely arguments over the that (what has happened, Mr Mandela dies - or didn't), who (who did this, or to whom did this happen, in this instance, Mr Mandela), the where (jail, or freedom, or die in bed), the when (1990, or much later); in history - that is, history until the advent of "fake news" - something either happened or it didn't.

Debates tended to take place over the "why" and the "how".

The fact that some dispute that - and dodgy memories are only the beginning of this - to attempt to argue that facts "the history of Nelson Mandela is just one of many things that people recall differently" is disingenuous - as this is how "fake news" - the presentation of material that has no basis whatsoever in fact as fact - gains traction.

We have had threads on this forum whereby matters that were physically impossible (by the laws of physics) were postulated as fact by individuals who could not comprehend that how they viewed the world (or the moon) had no basis whatsoever in objective, measurable reality but persisted in arguing that their perspective had equal validity.

Recalling movies, or (the ending of) songs differently is not - I submit - the same as recalling that which did not happen as though it did.

This is not "interesting" (unless you are one of those who seeks to argue that all memories are of equal validity) but is extraordinarily dangerous in a world where facts are constantly challenged by downright dodgy regimes, actors and bodies, for mendacity is a treasured tool in the armoury of those who would seek to undermine actors and individuals who ought to speak truth to power and hold authority to account.

 

[Gutwrench]

Mandela did not die in prison, and I find it incomprehensible that an educated and informed person - or one who chose to inform themselves about political events - failed to realise this.

I know right? It was my memory Nelson won the Nobel and elected President after being released. I had to google to confirm it because I thought I was crazy. Maybe it’s because I’m older (not as old as @LizKat who briefly dated Taft) and recall that history as it happened...or thought I did.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I know right? It was my memory Nelson won the Nobel and elected President after being released. I had to google to confirm it because I thought I was crazy. Maybe it’s because I’m older (not as old as @LizKat who briefly dated Taft) and recall that history as it happened...or thought I did.

What?

I never knew that @LizKat dated Taft (howsoever fleetingly).......consider me impressed. Actually awestruck.

The things we keep secret in the deep, dark folds of our past....

I just smiled (a simpering stupid smile, a starstruck rictus) at WJC while he managed to convey the impression that I was the most important and fascinating person in the entire universe while he conversed with me....briefly, for a few minutes (well, if memory can be fallible, time can be very elastic - pace Einstein) that seemed to last forever.

 

[Juicy Box]

Facts matter

The fact that some dispute that - and dodgy memories are only the beginning of this - to attempt to argue that facts "the history of Nelson Mandela is just one of many things that people recall differently" is disingenuous - as this is how "fake news" - the presentation of material that has no basis whatsoever in fact as fact - gains traction.

This is not "interesting" (unless you are one of those who seeks to argue that all memories are of equal validity) but is extraordinarily dangerous in a world where facts are constantly challenged by downright dodgy regimes, actors and bodies and mendacity is a treasured tool in the armoury of those who would seek to undermine actors and individuals who ought to speak truth to power and hold authority to account.

You keep bringing up facts, but you are totally missing the point of The Gump Effect. It involves people memories, not facts.

 

[chown33]

I never knew that @LizKat dated Taft (howsoever fleetingly).......consider me impressed. Actually awestruck.

I think that story got changed a bit in the retelling. The way I remember reading it, she dated someone who was known as "the daft boy", and her parents remarked on the similarity to an earlier US President's name.

If I'm wrong, would we call that "the Taft effect" or the "the daft effect"? I'm kind of torn between the two.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

You keep bringing up facts, but you are totally missing the point of The Gump Effect. It involves people memories, not facts.

Forgive me for being such a Gradgrind, but facts matter.

And I have worked in countries where not just individual memories were somewhat unreliable, but state memory banks were fundamentally flawed (try Soviet history, where the old joke - with bitter truth - ran as follows: "The past is constantly changing but the future is certain and glorious").

Photographs were doctored - to suit a different (and preferred reality - the original "airbrushing", and "photo-shopping") and state encyclopaedias were altered as political needs dictated (the entry on Beria, Lavrenti, was replaced by a fascinating - and scientifically accurate - entry on the Bering Sea, for example).

People's memories can be manipulated, and often are.

Therefore, in a modern western democracy, people have a duty to inform themselves as to what happened and what didn't.

 

[Project Alice]

Okay, wow. I did not expect this thread to turn into.. Whatever this has turned into.
Clearly none of you know or even remotely understand what the "Mandela Effect" is. Aside from maybe a couple.

There are a few theories on it. Here is mine: Alternate realities\parallel universes whatever you want to call it. I do not believe it is "fake news" or "conspiracy theories". None of that has ANYTHING to do with this thread or ME's. Nor do mis-memories. Mis-remembering can explain maybe some of the smaller stuff. Lets take a look at my OP:

As I said I've had many personal experiences, but I'll start out with the first one.
I remember clear as day, back in elementary school (I'm 24 as of writing) learning about Nelson Mandela, and how he died in prison before I was born. Fast forward to 2013, and the media is exploding about how he's just passed! I know a couple people who actually watched the televised funeral when he died the first time.

I am not mis-remembering. Nor are the people who, watched the funeral on TV.

What has happened is these people, myself included have ended up in a different reality from where we started. There are scientist who have theories about this.

My opinion is that conspiracy theorists have lost their imagination and to find their moment in the spotlight are now going for stuff that is truly impossible to believe to those who actually cracked a book open.
You're 24, which means you were born in 1995. Mandela was released in 1990, and I remember that day. If in elementary school (1995+6= 2001) you learned "how he died in prison" before you were born you either had the most ignorant teacher in the history of humanities, or you simply misinterpreted what she said and now carry a false memory.
[doublepost=1557841666][/doublepost]

There is a difference between a false memory of a personal account, and saying that a worldwide event never happened. Yes, memories are often incorrect in their particulars, but it's very rare that the important part of the memory is falsified (with some exceptions; schizophrenia, ptsd etc.).

I'll take the bait: we are the champions by queen?

This was only the first time I learned about it. Throughout school Nelson Mandela came up quite a few times. Including later years, in middle school and high school. I've read papers about him, seen documentarys on TV about him; but It was not until 2013 after I had already graduated that I heard about his death again, hence noticed I had changed realities again. If you are so keen on dismissing this as you did, quite rudely I may add, you can GTFO off my thread. If you'd like to have a more open mind and have civil discussion even if you don't understand it, or even agree with it then that is fine and actually encouraged.

Nelson Mandela as a topic may not be "fun and interesting" to you. That is not what defines an ME. The reason for the name of this effect is because our different memories on this particular event was the first widely noticed and well document anomaly. After this we all started paying more attention to detail and noticing other little "changes".

Here's another example of an ME that has personally happened to me. This happened last year.
A good friend of mine bought an old Toyota corolla for $200 that he wanted me to come check out. He said it ran but needed brakes, CV axles and tires. He knows I like cars so he invited me over to look at his very cheap but cool purchase.
I show up, and I look at this white 2002 Corolla. I was there for almost an hour, I looked all around, underneath and inside the car. It was white. A couple weeks later, my girlfriend gave him a ride a home and told me that she saw his new white corolla.
A couple more weeks and he gets the car fixed up enough to drive it. He calls me and asks if he can come pick me up in his new car. I say sure. So he gets to my place and he shows up in the exact same car, same dent on the fender and same scratches except the car was now maroon instead of white. I asked him if he had got a different corolla or painted it since I was there. Nope, same one. "We don't even have any white cars at our house" he says.
Perhaps this example is "fun and interesting" and not "ignorant" as the first example was to you.
That is what happened. You can choose to take this information and have a civilized conversation about it to maybe understand what the Mandela effect is, or you can continue to berate me about it because you don't have the mental capacity for things you can't explain.

Obviously I knew this thread would get all sorts of attention, but perhaps you should do research on this topic before just throwing down your word as law. There are people who believe the mandala effect is the Illuminati showing fake news or changing their memories or something. Now that is tin-foil hat material. This is obviously not what I believe.

 

[yaxomoxay]

you can GTFO off my thread.

You posted on a public forum. There is no such thing as your thread.

 

[Juicy Box]

People's memories can be manipulated, and often are.

That is what I was referring to. When in comes to people's memories, facts do not matter unless you are comparing those memories to the reality around them.

That is what the "Mirror, Mirror Effect" is all about. Not about fact, but about how memories differ from reality, and this is what makes the "Luke, I Am Your Father Effect" interesting to me.

People are recalling things that are contrary to reality for a reason. I find the potential reasons why to be interesting. For example, the Gestalt Theory I mentioned earlier is a big reason why, imo.

Forgive me for being such a Gradgrind, but facts matter.

Arguing about the facts of memories is like arguing about the laws of physics in a Star Wars or Matrix movie. Sure, you can, but in this case, physics do not matter.

BTW, I had to look up Gradgrind.
[doublepost=1557878851][/doublepost]

Clearly none of you know or even remotely understand what the "Mandela Effect" is.

I know what it is, I just think there are logical explanations for the Mandela Effect that do not involve the multiverse.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

That is what I was referring to. When in comes to people's memories, facts do not matter unless you are comparing those memories to the reality around them.

That is what the "Mirror, Mirror Effect" is all about. Not about fact, but about how memories differ from reality, and this is what makes the "Luke, I Am Your Father Effect" interesting to me.

People are recalling things that are contrary to reality for a reason. I find the potential reasons why to be interesting. For example, the Gestalt Theory I mentioned earlier is a big reason why, imo.



Arguing about the facts of memories is like arguing about the laws of physics in a Star Wars or Matrix movie. Sure, you can, but in this case, physics do not matter.

BTW, I had to look up Gradgrind.
[doublepost=1557878851][/doublepost]

I know what it is, I just think there are logical explanations for the Mandela Effect that do not involve the multiverse.

Physics do matter (if someone is arguing about water on the moon) and facts do matter, (if someone thinks that Nelson Mandela died decades before that actually happened).

Sorry: Facts matter.

We are not in Star Wars or a Matrix movie - if we were, I would somewhat concede the point - but we are here, and in the here and now, facts (scientific, political, economic, historical, geographical, cultural) matter.

 

[Juicy Box]

Physics do matter (if someone is arguing about water on the moon) and facts do matter, (if someone thinks that Nelson Mandela died decades before that actually happened).

Sorry: Facts matter.

We are not in Star Wars or a Matrix movie - if we were, I would somewhat concede the point - but we are here, and in the here and now, facts (scientific, political, economic, historical, geographical, cultural) matter.

Memories are not governed by facts, but just the interpretations of bits of stimuli.

Sorry: For memories, just like dreams, and physics in the Matrix, facts don't matter.

 

[daimos]

Tens of thousands of years ago, humans entertained themselves with exaggerated stories. Monsters, giants, elves. Fast forward to the digital age, it's no different.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Okay, wow. I did not expect this thread to turn into.. Whatever this has turned into.
Clearly none of you know or even remotely understand what the "Mandela Effect" is. Aside from maybe a couple.

There are a few theories on it. Here is mine: Alternate realities\parallel universes whatever you want to call it. I do not believe it is "fake news" or "conspiracy theories". None of that has ANYTHING to do with this thread or ME's. Nor do mis-memories. Mis-remembering can explain maybe some of the smaller stuff. Lets take a look at my OP:
I am not mis-remembering. Nor are the people who, watched the funeral on TV.

What has happened is these people, myself included have ended up in a different reality from where we started. There are scientist who have theories about this.

This was only the first time I learned about it. Throughout school Nelson Mandela came up quite a few times. Including later years, in middle school and high school. I've read papers about him, seen documentarys on TV about him; but It was not until 2013 after I had already graduated that I heard about his death again, hence noticed I had changed realities again. If you are so keen on dismissing this as you did, quite rudely I may add, you can GTFO off my thread. If you'd like to have a more open mind and have civil discussion even if you don't understand it, or even agree with it then that is fine and actually encouraged.

Nelson Mandela as a topic may not be "fun and interesting" to you. That is not what defines an ME. The reason for the name of this effect is because our different memories on this particular event was the first widely noticed and well document anomaly. After this we all started paying more attention to detail and noticing other little "changes".

Here's another example of an ME that has personally happened to me. This happened last year.
A good friend of mine bought an old Toyota corolla for $200 that he wanted me to come check out. He said it ran but needed brakes, CV axles and tires. He knows I like cars so he invited me over to look at his very cheap but cool purchase.
I show up, and I look at this white 2002 Corolla. I was there for almost an hour, I looked all around, underneath and inside the car. It was white. A couple weeks later, my girlfriend gave him a ride a home and told me that she saw his new white corolla.
A couple more weeks and he gets the car fixed up enough to drive it. He calls me and asks if he can come pick me up in his new car. I say sure. So he gets to my place and he shows up in the exact same car, same dent on the fender and same scratches except the car was now maroon instead of white. I asked him if he had got a different corolla or painted it since I was there. Nope, same one. "We don't even have any white cars at our house" he says.
Perhaps this example is "fun and interesting" and not "ignorant" as the first example was to you.
That is what happened. You can choose to take this information and have a civilized conversation about it to maybe understand what the Mandela effect is, or you can continue to berate me about it because you don't have the mental capacity for things you can't explain.

Obviously I knew this thread would get all sorts of attention, but perhaps you should do research on this topic before just throwing down your word as law. There are people who believe the mandala effect is the Illuminati showing fake news or changing their memories or something. Now that is tin-foil hat material. This is obviously not what I believe.

Given that you have complained about what you referred to as the "rudeness" of @yaxomoxay, might I suggest that suggesting that he "GTFO" (in bold, no less), while attempting to argue that he "doesn't have the mental capacity for things you can't explain" both strike me as a fairly "rude" and needlessly offensive tone to take.

You may have started the thread, but a little courtesy and civility wouldn't go amiss when responding to individuals who reply but who choose to disagree with you, and dissent from your interpretation of what you have described as "the Mandela Effect".

In a former life, I used to teach politics at university, and someone in my classroom who "misremembered" key events would be someone who had little interest in politics and current affairs and would have been someone who chose not to inform themselves of what was happening in the wider world.

That is fine, and means that such an individual has little interest in current affairs; but, to try to argue that "misremembering" is valid, rather than uninformed, is disingenuous, and - from a civic perspective, quite irresponsible.

For fiction, obviously, different criteria apply.

 

[decafjava]

There are a few theories on it. Here is mine: Alternate realities\parallel universes whatever you want to call it. I do not believe it is "fake news" or "conspiracy theories". None of that has ANYTHING to do with this thread or ME's. Nor do mis-memories. Mis-remembering can explain maybe some of the smaller stuff. Lets take a look at my OP:
I am not mis-remembering. Nor are the people who, watched the funeral on TV.

Did you see my post? The youtube clip of Mandela walking to freedom? I was alive and watching then, you were not. Period.

 

[Juicy Box]

For anyone that likes The X-files, there is an episode in season 10 or 11 that is all about The Mandela Effect.

The ending kind of fits in with what I have been saying about ME.

Did you see my post? The youtube clip of Mandela walking to freedom? I was alive and watching then, you were not. Period.

I could be wrong, but I think you may not understand what the OP and others are describing.

There isn't one person that understands the ME that would argue against proof or evidence of Nelson Mandela getting out of prison.

So, posting a YouTube video and declaring it as proof is kind of pointless.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Did you see my post? The youtube clip of Mandela walking to freedom? I was alive and watching then, you were not. Period.

Exactly.

As for the OP, have you any idea how - logically - ludicrous this sentence is? "I know a couple (of) people who actually watched the televised funeral when he died the first time."

(The bolded words and italicised words are in the original sentence).

Seriously, Nelson Mandela didn't die twice.

In any case, such individuals couldn't have watched the televised funeral when he "died the first time", firstly, because it didn't happen, and secondly, given the political reality in South Africa at that time, there is absolutely no way in which the South African authorities, wedded as they were to the doctrine of apartheid, which was robustly enforced in law, would have even permitted such a public gathering to have taken place had Nelson Mandela died while behind bars.

A public funeral would have been an illegal act.

Such a "memory" is not only historically inaccurate but completely politically illiterate.

 

[AlliFlowers]

Well I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am currently experiencing the ME. Because I know that I started out in a reality where America was the greatest country in the world, and we lived under a democratic republic that was ruled by a constitution. And that is no longer my reality.

(You knew someone was going to bring politics into this.)

 

[yaxomoxay]

As for the OP, have you any idea how - logically - ludicrous this sentence is? "I know a couple (of) people who actually watched the televised funeral when he died the first time."

I think that it's a sign of the current generation. Rather than understand that it's their own memory's fault (= their fault), people prefer to point the fingers at society or, as in this case, reality itself.
[doublepost=1557924905][/doublepost]

Well I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am currently experiencing the ME. Because I know that I started out in a reality where America was the greatest country in the world, and we lived under a democratic republic that was ruled by a constitution. And that is no longer my reality.

(You knew someone was going to bring politics into this.)

Yeah, but we can argue that Obama/Bush/Clinton[...]/Washington were all bought by corporations, so with Trump things changed. In addition, Hitler. And we've never been on the Moon. Flat Earth. And Idaho doesn't exist (for those not familiar: http://www.fantasymaps.com/stuff/idaho.html ). Just to bring any topic on here

 

[Juicy Box]

I am sure the thread got derailed from the OP's original intent.

Getting to the other ME examples, the Star Wars-Luke, I am your father one is pretty good:


I think a reason why so many people remember it as "Luke, I am your father" is that it was parodied this way so many times. Actually, I think that is why many movie lines get misquoted, because people remember the many parodies of the lines.

Plus, it was much easier to get lines wrong in the past than it is now, imo. Today, people have many media outlets to view movies. 30 years ago, if I was having a disagreement with a friend on a movie line or quote, it was much harder to prove or disprove it.

Now, these things can be usually figured out within a few seconds.

As for the "Luke, I am your father", it was used (incorrectly) many times outside of Star Wars.

Here is an example from Tommy Boy:

When people were exposed to the false line from so many different sources, it would be easy to believe that the false line, is actually the true one. I think this is also the case for the Forrest Gump ME example.
[doublepost=1557926806][/doublepost]

I'll take the bait: we are the champions by queen?

This is another good one, but I think it was explained by different versions of the song from different releases.

Even if there was just one version without the "of the world" at he end of the song, I think that this is just people remembering the normal chorus lines elsewhere in the song.

Anyone have a version of the song that ends with "of the world"?

 

[Number-Six]

I am sure the thread got derailed from the OP's original intent.

Getting to the other ME examples, the Star Wars-Luke, I am your father one is pretty good:
View attachment 837103

I think a reason why so many people remember it as "Luke, I am your father" is that it was parodied this way so many times. Actually, I think that is why many movie lines get misquoted, because people remember the many parodies of the lines.

Plus, it was much easier to get lines wrong in the past than it is now, imo. Today, people have many media outlets to view movies. 30 years ago, if I was having a disagreement with a friend on a movie line or quote, it was much harder to prove or disprove it.

Now, these things can be usually figured out within a few seconds.

As for the "Luke, I am your father", it was used (incorrectly) many times outside of Star Wars.

Here is an example from Tommy Boy:

When people were exposed to the false line from so many different sources, it would be easy to believe that the false line, is actually the true one. I think this is also the case for the Forrest Gump ME example.
[doublepost=1557926806][/doublepost]
This is another good one, but I think it was explained by different versions of the song from different releases.

Even if there was just one version without the "of the world" at he end of the song, I think that this is just people remembering the normal chorus lines elsewhere in the song.

Anyone have a version of the song that ends with "of the world"?

I think that using Star Wars as an example of this is not helping, given that George Lucas changed so much in the movies over the years.

It's actually not impossible that at some point, either of the quotes may have been accurate.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Anyone have a version of the song that ends with "of the world"?

Live at Milton Keynes Bowl, June 1982.

 

[BenTrovato]

Just weighing in seeing the comments and the "absurdity that people believe Mandela died in prison". That's not the spirit of the Mandela effect and it feels like people are wrapping social context and failures of misinformation for people not remembering the event in the same way. Yes you are all correct about all the issues you bring up. Yes, people make mistakes and their memory fills in gaps. Yes society can be stupid, that's not ME.

The Mandela Effect is more about a large scale population remembering something differently than others. Not just a few kids in grade school and not just some uneducated fools talking nonsense on the internet. That's a totally different conversation. Yes some people don't know who Mandela was, okay we get it. This is more about the feeling that you actually remembered something in a certain way but not just you, many many others remember it the exact same way. Is that not somewhat interesting to talk about?

ME is more about where science is just starting to scratch the surface of parallel realities and multiverses and that maybe the ME can be a small observation about, or maybe not.

 

[Juicy Box]

I think that using Star Wars as an example of this is not helping, given that George Lucas changed so much in the movies over the years.

It's actually not impossible that at some point, either of the quotes may have been accurate.

That is a really good point.

And goes along with the multiple versions of "We are the champions, (of the world)" example.

There a many changes to the Star Wars films over the years, and seems to be new changes with every re-release. Maybe the line was originally "Luke, I am your father", this could be a possibility. Although, I would bet that it was people misquoting it, rather than a change of the line.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Just weighing in seeing the comments and the "absurdity that people believe Mandela died in prison". That's not the spirit of the Mandela effect and it feels like people are wrapping social context and failures of misinformation for people not remembering the event in the same way. Yes you are all correct about all the issues you bring up. Yes, people make mistakes and their memory fills in gaps. Yes society can be stupid, that's not ME.

The Mandela Effect is more about a large scale population remembering something differently than others. Not just a few kids in grade school and not just some uneducated fools talking nonsense on the internet. That's a totally different conversation. Yes some people don't know who Mandela was, okay we get it. This more about the feeling that you actually remembered something in a certain way but not just you, many many others remember it the exact same way. Is that not somewhat interesting to talk about?

ME is more about where science is just starting to scratch the surface of parallel realities and multiverses and that maybe the ME can be a small observation about it, or maybe not.

We're 7,500,000,000 on this planet right now. Since Mandela was incarcerated probably 10 to 15B people lived on this planet. It's not difficult to find that a huge number of people like 3,750,000 individuals (which accounts for 0.05% of the current population only) remembers one event completely wrong.
Just go to a soccer/baseball/football game; fans from different teams will see different things for penalties/strikes-balls/touchdowns, and depending on the team the game will be remembered in different ways.