Mandela Effect

[Huntn]

Well, I'm an historian by training, which means that I have an unusual respect (perhaps reverence) for facts.

While the basis of those facts (the who, the what, the when, the where) are not usually a matter for dispute in history, and are rarely contentious, the why and the how are a lot more open to scrutiny and admit differing interpretations.

However, while people may remember - or misremember - what they attempt to argue as facts, this is something I have little sympathy for (and less interest in).

Firstly, factually, they are wrong.

Something either happened, or it didn't. And what happened, when and where and to whom it happened are rarely a matter for dispute, unless you are watching "fake news", are misinformed, (and being misinformed does not make or render your information valid and no matter how much one "feels" that something happened differently does not mean that t happened that way, and to attempt to argue otherwise is silly) or are incarcerated in a sealed media bubble (such as a totalitarian state) where correct information is hard to come by.

Secondly, as citizens they ought to inform themselves (accurately) of what is taking place.

Agree completely. What you see happening in the US for the last 3 or 4 years is a lot of fast and loose with facts, better described as non-facts for the purpose of deception, either themselves or others. Somehow the Mandella Effect seems like this might be a perfect compliment to that strategy.

 

[JohnEmmett]

for the purpose of deception

speak for yourself

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Agree completely. What you see happening in the US for the last 3 or 4 years is a lot of fast and loose with facts, better described as non-facts for the purpose of deception, either themselves or others. Somehow the Mandella Effect seems like this might be a perfect compliment to that strategy.

Agreed.

Twenty or thirty years ago, people who claimed to have experienced "alternative facts" were dismissed as deluded, or misinformed or uninformed, or uneducated. Or as outright fantasists.

They were not taken seriously by anyone, and nobody (credible) would have attempted to argue that such delusions should be entertained, let alone admitted to serious discourse.

Above all, they were denied the right to be taken seriously, and to have their "alternative facts" taken seriously, which is something that I find baffling about this very discussion.

Once you start admitting that "alternative facts" have an equal validity - or equal cultural currency - to known or proven facts, you open the societal and cultural door not just to delusional fantasists, in the paranoid grip of conspiracy theories, but also to mendacious and amoral socio-political interests and and their enabling elites, in whose interest it is, not to be constrained by facts, or reality, (or rights or laws).

 

[JohnEmmett]

we're just trusting our memories

memories are factual

 

[Huntn]

Does anyone here remember things from the past incorrectly and question if they changed on you? If so what are your examples? My problem is that while I have good remembrance of my personal past history, my current mental acuteness has definitely taken a hit in the last 15 years. I have become forgetful, and find it difficult to retain some of the things I observe now.

My regard for this topic the Mandella Effect, currently is open minded, but cautious. I think most of this can be attributed how memory works. The video in post 62 mentions the ME at 5 minutes in, and mentions Quantum Physics 9 minutes in, with example, which you may or may not remember as the author of the video describes.

skip to 6 minutes

South America has moved a thousand miles to the East

other, new geography changes are noticed

You need to start quoting the people you are replying to. It is easy to do. This will help keep who you are addressing clear.

Referencing the video, he mentions quantum theory at 9 minutes in, claims this is the reason for the ME, and mentions some examples:

• Regarding the how maps drawn and South America moving, when a three dimensional sphere is laid out flat, it is distorted so it is an approximation. This is why great circle routes on a flat map look like they are longer, than drawing a straight line. However, I do remember South America on the map appearing to be more under North America than it currently is, but this could easily be a function of how memory works and how people remember visual representations. I know that S.America bulges to the East.
• Regarding Macintosh vs McIntosh, I remember both names, but am not an authority on apple names to say one existed or not as a real apple although I distinctly remember thinking it is named after an apple thanks to Apple Computer.
• The brand Stouffer’s Stove Top Stuffing resonates with me. However, I know there is Stouffer’s bread crumbs and Stove Top Stuffing. This can simply being adding the two together. I can’t say that reality has changed.
• Kennedy Assassination I remember at least 5 people in car, because the governor of Texas (and his wife?) was sitting in front of the Kennedys and he was wounded. There had to be a driver and most likely a SS person in the front passenger seat. I never ever remembered there being only 4 people in the car.

 

[JohnEmmett]

you may try to make a case for blind doubt

or you can check your memory

 

[Huntn]

speak for yourself

I’m referring to what I have observed. Aren’t memories factual?
And I continue to observe deception daily in American Politics, although this would not be technically part of the Mandella Effect, although the ME could be used as a deception strategy to help convince citizens that Trump really won the popular vote. Hence my comment.

 

[1146331]

Poor website that you linked to:

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If you are the owner of the website and are regularly seeing this error, you may read more about it in our Knowledgebase.

 

[Huntn]

you may try to make a case for blind doubt
or
you can check your memory against known examples of this Effect

trying to explain is unhelpful

Again, if you are replying to me, the difficult thing is to assertain if your memory is something that is completely factual or something that your mind recorded not completely accurate.

If we decide that the ME is real, how does this effect our lives, what meaningful impact does it have in your opinion?

 

[JohnEmmett]

the difficult thing is to ascertain if your memory is something that is completely factual

my memory is photographic

S America has shifted a thousand miles

 

[Huntn]

my memory is photographic

S America has shifted a thousand miles

How old are you?
Memories are not infallible, proven every day in courts of law.

 

[JohnEmmett]

how does this effect our lives, what meaningful impact does it have in your opinion?

people react to miracles in different ways

Memories are not infallible

memories are correct a lot

 

[Scepticalscribe]

How old are you?

Yes, that very question occurred to me, as well.

Memories are not infallible, proven every day in courts of law.

No, but you can train your mind and memory and keep it active by learning new skills, and re-visiting old ones - in other words, engaging in a kind of mental exercise to keep mind and memory supple.

However, I do wonder about changes in how we absorb or consume information; for example, - and I wonder whether this is because of differences in the actual medium (books, newspapers, or online material) or differences in the way I learned to process and recall material (via the printed word in a hard format - such as a book, for example, or online, - as I well predate the era of the digital native), but I will admit that I - who always enjoyed the gift of an excellent memory - find it a lot harder to effortlessly recall material I have read online, than I do when it takes the form of a newspaper, or periodical, or book, where my recall is a lot better.

 

[JohnEmmett]

How old are you?

All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine. Socrates

 

[Huntn]

Yes, that very question occurred to me, as well.



No, but you can train your mind and memory and keep it active by learning new skills, and re-visiting old ones - in other words, engaging in a kind of mental exercise to keep mind and memory supple.

However, I do wonder about changes in how we absorb or consume information; for example, - and I wonder whether this is because of differences in the actual medium (books, newspapers, or nine material) or differences in the way I learned to process and recall material (via the printed word in a hard format - such as a book, for example, or online, - as I well predate the era of the digital native), but I will admit that I - who always enjoyed the gift of an excellent memory - find it a lot harder to effortlessly recall material I have read online, than I do when it takes the form of a newspaper, or periodical, or book, where my recall is a lot better.

Do you have any instances of something you remember that turns out never to have happened of was altered significantly from how you remember it?
Although not really applicable, it reminds me of how I grew up thinking that historical native Americans were blood thirsty savages. My reality has changed since then as to who the savages were. That is just me getting educated and gaining perspective.

 

[JohnEmmett]

That is just me getting educated and gaining perspective.

maybe you will gain perspective about this Effect

maybe you will not

 

[Huntn]

All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine. Socrates

Not really an answer. I want to know how much historical memory you have to have experienced the reported changes?
[doublepost=1561909286][/doublepost]

maybe you will gain perspective about this Effect

maybe you will not

I already said I was open minded and I am, but this does not take the place of my analyzing the claims.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Do you have any instances of something you remember that turns out never to have happened

No.

was altered significantly from how you remember it?

Not significantly altered, no.

However different family members may recall the same event differently - but that is more to do with their own perspective and perception than the actual event.

Although not really applicable, it reminds me of how I grew up thinking that historical native Americans were blood thirsty savages. My reality has changed since then as to who the savages were. That is just me getting educated and gaining perspective.

Indians were portrayed as "the baddies" in movies, but movies were not facts, they were stories, stories told on screen.

However, I do recall when I was very young - perhaps around seven or eight - my shock when a friend of mine, a guy whose father (a travel agent with a large business who was pretty widely travelled) told me that his father had said to him that the movies got it wrong about the Indians, that they were in fact, "the good guys" in these tales who had been unjustly treated at the hands of others.

Oddly enough, because I knew the man, a sober and serious individual - not given to flights of fancy, not the kind who would lie to - or pander to - children, let alone his own son - I took his observation seriously, and from then on, was more than open to a version, or explanation, of those events which did not place the Indians as the villains of the piece.

 

[Huntn]

No.



Not significantly altered, no.

However different family members may recall the same event differently - but that is more to do with their own perspective and perception than the actual event.



Indians were portrayed as "the baddies" in movies, but movies were not facts, they were stories, stories told on screen.

However, I do recall when I was very young - perhaps around seven or eight - my shock when a friend of mine, a guy whose father (a travel agent with a large business who was pretty widely travelled) told me that his father had said to him that the movies got it wrong about the Indians, that they were in fact, "the good guys" in these tales who had been unjustly treated at the hands of others.

Oddly enough, because I knew the man, a sober and serious individual - not given to flights of fancy, not the kind who would lie to - or pander to - children, let alone his own son - I took his observation seriously, and from then on, was more than open to a version, or explanation, of those events which did not place the Indians as the villains of the piece.

It reminds me of the saying that the winners write history and indeed they do. Fortunately documentaries have the power to set the record straight. Ken Burn’s The West does that well painting what appears to be a balanced and fair depiction of this history.

 

[daimos]

maybe you will gain perspective about this Effect

maybe you will not

The Emperor’s New Clothes

 

[JohnEmmett]

The Emperor’s New Clothes

blind doubt

whatever the truth may be, who knows?!

 

[AngerDanger]

Every now and again, we get a member whose posts make me wonder if they're actually an elaborate demo of some machine-learning-based text synthesis, the likes of which are usually responsible for such masterpieces as:

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Every now and again, we get a member whose posts make me wonder if they're actually an elaborate demo of some machine-learning-based text synthesis, the likes of which are usually responsible for such masterpieces as:

Yes, I think I know exactly what you mean.

Gnomic might be a charitable description for the posts in question, but these posts also strike me as somewhat immature, and possibly could be classed as a form of attention-seeking.

 

[JohnEmmett]

the level of discussion is immature faith

hence my replies

 

[TGM85]

I don't believe in the Mandela Effect either, but I do think it's a fun scifi premise to think about, and reminds me of some Philip K Dick stories like "Flow My Tears the Policeman Said".

(...) The point of the effect is that you are exposed to an event or fact, such as Mandela dying in prison, or New Zealand being located North of Australia, or a large country existing between France and Spain, and then you carry on years of your life never having to think about this fact again before suddenly, decades later, finding out your previous recollection was impossibly wrong. The Effect IS NOT about looking at a map that showed New Zealand to the North, then blinking and seeing a map with New Zealand to the South. By definition the effect could only happen for literally ignorant people whose lives are impacted the least by the true position of New Zealand, or by the date of Mandela's death.

I personally have a variant of the Australia one. I remember poring over an atlas as a child and being amazed at how remote Australia was located from other continents or islands. In my memories thousands of kilometres or miles of ocean lie between Australia and the nearest inhabited landmass.

Now when I look on a world map, I can't help but be somewhat bothered by the fact that Australia is located literally right next to South East Asia and countries such as Indonesia or Papua New Guinea.