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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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Don't be silly. The difference between 30% transaction costs or 10% makes or breaks many business models.


They may be just ramping up.

Do we know whether Apple Music is making profit - or are Apple just dumping their "Music" services to consumers, in order to gain market share from Spotify?

How can Apple make a profit on "Music" for the same subscription price - when they're supposedly paying more to artists?


Not your, my or Apple's issue.
You keep hitting the 30% fee but after a year it's 15%.
Many listeners have subscribed for years. Spotify isnt that new.

Ramping up?
More like winding up from reports. The paid a lot of Podcasts that hasnt worked out too well..

This isnt about whether Apple Music make money or not.
Apple priced their app same as Spotify.
They could have chosen to be cheaper or more expensive.
Perhaps research was the price is the sweet spot?

Apple gives away heaps of software. Not just OS.
They make you pay for Music so what's your point?
How Apple fund parts of their business is indeed their business.
They aren't undercutting Spotify.

You seem to forget Spotify have double the customers who pay OUTSIDE the app store.
They are keeping all the subs.
It works, they dominate the streaming music apps.

Yet you still use Apple and their business model to justify Spotify's model...
Apple Music still costs the same on Android regardless whatever fee PlayStore charge.
So Apple are being platform neutral...
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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How Apple fund parts of their business is indeed their business.
So is Spotify’s in funding their own business.
So why do you feel the need to point out how their business model supposedly is badly run?

It’s Spotify’s business - and so are their transactions with users. Between Spotify and the consumers.
You seem to forget Spotify have double the customers who pay OUTSIDE the app store.
They are keeping all the subs.
It works, they dominate the streaming music apps.
…against and despite Apple having risen to become their biggest competitor.
And despite Spotify having to provide inferior sign-on experience to Apple Music (unless they directly subsidise their competitor by paying them a commission).

Suggests that Spotify has a superior music streaming product - and Apple is successfully propping up their inferior product by anticompetitive means.
So Apple are being platform neutral...
In their own end user pricing, yes.

But that’s not the issue. The issue is that they Apple as the iOS platform developer aren’t allowing fair competition between Apple Music and Spotify.

The European Commission has determined that - and so did the U.S. court (with regards to Apple’s anti-steering policy). And probably the U.S Department of Justice did too.
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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So is Spotify’s in funding their own business.
So why do you feel the need to point out how their business model supposedly is badly run?

It’s Spotify’s business - and so are their transactions with users. Between Spotify and the consumers.

…against and despite Apple having risen to become their biggest competitor.
And despite Spotify having to provide inferior sign-on experience to Apple Music (unless they directly subsidise their competitor by paying them a commission).

Suggests that Spotify has a superior music streaming product - and Apple is successfully propping up their inferior product by anticompetitive means.

In their own end user pricing, yes.

But that’s not the issue. The issue is that they Apple as the iOS platform developer aren’t allowing fair competition between Apple Music and Spotify.

The European Commission has determined that - and so did the U.S. court (with regards to Apple’s anti-steering policy). And probably the U.S Department of Justice did too.
beats me why you come to this page except to bash Apple.

nothing but destroying them will make you happy.

you want it open and free and demonetize them.

no matter what you say, the user numbers of Spotify show Apple did not affect Spotify growth/dominance.
60+% of the phone market can subscribe from app.
the desktop market can as well.

oh look, Tidal let me IAP a sign up for A$16.99 a month. Geez, its like they'd rather have a customer than miss out...
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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beats me why you come to this page except to bash Apple.

nothing but destroying them will make you happy.
I like many of their products. That’s why I’m a customer and forum member.
I don’t like everything about their products, and I don’t like their business conduct with regards to competition. That’s why I’m criticising them and supporting regulation.

you want it open and free and demonetize them.
Hardware manufacturers and operating system developers deserve to compete on hardware and operating system features and pricing. They don’t deserve to not compete but charge rent in the distribution of applications or third-party services.
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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I like many of their products. That’s why I’m a customer and forum member.
I don’t like everything about their products, and I don’t like their business conduct with regards to competition. That’s why I’m criticising them and supporting regulation.


Hardware manufacturers and operating system developers deserve to compete on hardware and operating system features and pricing.

They don’t deserve to not compete but charge rent in the distribution of applications or third-party services.
So what products do you like? and have bought?
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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So what products do you like? and have bought?
Is this some kind of validation or trick question? ;)

Suffice to say, I've bought and used hardware products and accessories from most of product lines (desktop PCs, notebooks, etc.) in Apple's lineup. For longer than you've been a Mac user.

...and liked most of them, on their own merit.
Some of their business practices though? Not so much.
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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Is this some kind of validation or trick question? ;)

Suffice to say, I've bought and used hardware products and accessories from most of product lines (desktop PCs, notebooks, etc.) in Apple's lineup. For longer than you've been a Mac user.

...and liked most of them, on their own merit.
Some of their business practices though? Not so much.
no not a trick question

and your answer is evasive and presumptive :)

own an iPhone?

and what business practices in particular do you have issue with?
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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no not a trick question

and your answer is evasive and presumptive :)

own an iPhone?

and what business practices in particular do you have issue with?
If you go to apple.com, they have got 9 categories of products/services (from "Mac" to "Accessories") in their top of the page menu.

I've bought and am currently using products from 7 out of those 9 - guess the "Vision" has now lowered my ratio.
(...and that would allow you to deduce whether I have an iPhone 😉)

My biggest gripe with them is their monopoly on software distribution for iOS/iPadOS devices - and I've had that since their App Store was announced. And they're being a**h***s about in-app purchasing and content. (Other gripes, particularly towards their resellers and service providers are more specific).

iMessage and blue vs. green bubbles is a non-issue where I live.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
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Suggests that Spotify has a superior music streaming product - and Apple is successfully propping up their inferior product by anticompetitive means.
I guess what constitutes "inferior" is a matter of perspective.

I think where Apple is going with Apple Music is to create a service that integrates well with their own hardware and other services. As such, it's not meant to have the largest market share or the most number of users (in that Apple is not interesting in making their service the "best" for everybody). Nor is Apple Music necessarily meant to be a key revenue driver in itself; it exists to add value to Apple hardware. An example is how vision pro users can still access apple music since spotify isn't yet available for it. So Apple is prescient in not being reliant on another company for such a critical piece of their infrastructure.

So what this means is that Apple Music was always only going to be popular amongst iOS users, and probably won't see much traction amongst users who aren't entrenched in the apple ecosystem, such as android phone users, who do make up the majority of the smartphone market. But the benefit is that for someone like myself who owns a number of apple devices, Apple Music is "better" by virtue of being integrated with iOS at a system level, as well as being part of the Apple One bundle. I also suspect that it's optimised to be more power efficient, and sound better on AirPods, but I don't have any objective data to back this up at the moment.

In the very least, I will say that Apple Music is better in the areas that I do care about.
 
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DaPhox

Suspended
Oct 23, 2019
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You know that this is a far inferior user experience than offering it in-app.

It's like a store where they have to* tell you:
"You can't pay our products in this building. We know, it's not ideal".

Store clerks can't point you towards the cashier either.
But you're saying "Yeah, but you can google it" - that's ridiculous.

* Unless the store pays an anticompetitive 30% "commission" to its biggest competitor.
How much commission do you think a store charge a manufacturer/distributor for selling their stuff? Or is it ”free”?
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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If you go to apple.com, they have got 9 categories of products/services (from "Mac" to "Accessories") in their top of the page menu.

I've bought and am currently using products from 7 out of those 9 - guess the "Vision" has now lowered my ratio.
(...and that would allow you to deduce whether I have an iPhone 😉)

My biggest gripe with them is their monopoly on software distribution for iOS/iPadOS devices - and I've had that since their App Store was announced. And they're being a**h***s about in-app purchasing and content. (Other gripes, particularly towards their resellers and service providers are more specific).

iMessage and blue vs. green bubbles is a non-issue where I live.
why wont you just say if you own an iPhone.

it's not a hard question or big secret...

so your biggest complaint is the app store locked distribution?
that existed from the outset. it's not new. you bought every device knowing that limit. every. single. one.
so why buy them if you didnt like it?
you could easily have bought an Android tablet without that limitation.

Apple's resellers and service providers sound outside Apple;s direct control.
Any complaint should be taken up with them and if you dont get a satisfactory response raise concerns with Apple about those companies and how they reflect badly on Apple's product sales and support.

Can you explain why green/blue bubbles is a non issue where you live?
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,277
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So they are making a profit?
Not necessarily. 🤷🏻‍♀️
Businesses may sell items/services at a loss.

Crucial difference:
  • When you increase the value you provide to consumers by improving your product or service, you their willingness to spend. If you increase the price accordingly, you (all other things equal) get to keep that additional margin/revenue in full. Why wouldn't you be entitled to that?
  • With commissions you don‘t. You pay more commission to your commissionaire (and in Spotify's case your biggest competitor). Does that mean that your commissionaire in any way improved his service, distribution or marketing for your products? Does it mean they, the commissionaire or agent, increased demand for your product? Not at all! They don't need to improve anything. So why would they be entitled to earn more from you as commission?
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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why wont you just say if you own an iPhone.
As I said, that can easily be deduced: If I don't have a Vision (Pro), yes, I own an iPhone.
Don't use my Apple watch without one ;)

that existed from the outset. it's not new. you bought every device knowing that limit. every. single. one.
so why buy them if you didnt like it?
you could easily have bought an Android tablet without that limitation.
So? I don't like Android for other reasons.
It's not as if there's a useful third choice in the marketplace.
Realistically, if I want to buy a useful smartphone, I'm forced to choose between iOS and Android.
Apple's resellers and service providers sound outside Apple;s direct control.
Any complaint should be taken up with them and if you dont get a satisfactory response raise concerns with Apple about those companies and how they reflect badly on Apple's product sales and support.
To clarify (and I admittedly put that very misunderstandable above) I meant how Apple's treats their resellers and service providers.
 

wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
1,232
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As I said, that can easily be deduced: If I don't have a Vision (Pro), yes, I own an iPhone.
Don't use my Apple watch without one ;)


So? I don't like Android for other reasons.
It's not as if there's a useful third choice in the marketplace.
Realistically, if I want to buy a useful smartphone, I'm forced to choose between iOS and Android.

To clarify (and I admittedly put that very misunderstandable above) I meant how Apple's treats their resellers and service providers.
OK so you got across the products you own line... eventually... phew.

Seems nothing makes you a happy camper. Not iOS not Android. I seriously doubt a third option would make you happy either. Without knowing the exact things you hate about both (no, it's been too hard to find out what you own to go down that rabbit hole), I have no further suggestions on what will suit you.

Life's short, accept nothing is perfect and move along and enjoy the time you have here.

All big companies treat their sale and support channels how they want.
We have a federal inquiry going on here in Australia into supermarkets and how they gouge customers and screw over farmers/suppliers. Its not pretty what those with all the cards do to lesser entities. Exposing the problems is a start.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,277
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Seems nothing makes you a happy camper. Not iOS not Android. I seriously doubt a third option would make you happy either. Without knowing the exact things you hate about both (no, it's been too hard to find out what you own to go down that rabbit hole), I have no further suggestions on what will suit you.
I'm quite happy with iOS - if only Apple wouldn't force everyone to use their App Store and all payments (for digital content) to go through them. The Mac experience and rules for installing and paying for software are good and ensure decent competition.

Also, if Apple didn't force me to sign into iCloud and sync my passwords (Keychain) through them, just to configure a HomeKit device.
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 65816
Nov 23, 2007
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I'm quite happy with iOS - if only Apple wouldn't force everyone to use their App Store and all payments (for digital content) to go through them. The Mac experience and rules for installing and paying for software are good and ensure decent competition.

Also, if Apple didn't force me to sign into iCloud and sync my passwords (Keychain) through them, just to configure a HomeKit device.
but even saying what you just said you arent happy with iOS...

i doubt the EU changes will make you happy.
in fact, i've read enough of your posts to know they wont and you want even more openness.

a third option wont be happening. Microsoft failed and they had deep pockets. it would take too much money now to fight the two entrenched camps. and it would take a big change of function to convince masses to switch. and it would have to be free so who funds it?

you might not like paying for digital content provision. so be it. but really when most of it is only 15% (not the touted 30%) and alternative stores are talking about 12% instead, where it is the motivation and money to pay nothing?

While i have some Smart Lighting devices, I still find HomeKit limited and not worth bothering with.
It fights for device setup control. And then has reduced feature set.
Signing in to iCloud has never been an issue. It's a step that happens infrequently to not bother me,

A central, easy to use Home Control app would be great.
I have too many separate apps to control different brands of products and i'm too lazy to get a Google box to talk at. :)
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,667
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Singapore
Not necessarily. 🤷🏻‍♀️
Businesses may sell items/services at a loss.

Crucial difference:
  • When you increase the value you provide to consumers by improving your product or service, you their willingness to spend. If you increase the price accordingly, you (all other things equal) get to keep that additional margin/revenue in full. Why wouldn't you be entitled to that?
  • With commissions you don‘t. You pay more commission to your commissionaire (and in Spotify's case your biggest competitor). Does that mean that your commissionaire in any way improved his service, distribution or marketing for your products? Does it mean they, the commissionaire or agent, increased demand for your product? Not at all! They don't need to improve anything. So why would they be entitled to earn more from you as commission?
I see it as the difference between a percentage cut and a flat fee like the CTF (core technology fee). Neither is inherently better or worse than the other, it depends on where you are looking from.

With a percentage cut, Apple makes money only if your app makes money (and even then, only if it's paid directly, not from ads). A developer releasing a free app will never have to pay Apple a cent outside of the annual $99 developer fee. The downside is for paid apps, because the more they earn, the more they have to pay to Apple.

It's not that dissimilar from income tax, where I have people in my country who never have to pay a single cent of income tax, by virtue of their income being under the threshold, while I do have to pay due to my salary and singlehood status (no child relief to take advantage of). I don't exactly like it, but I accept that everything's interconnected. Those who earn more, pay more because they can.

In contrast, with something like a CTF, there is potential for a high-grossing app to keep more of their revenue (this typically comes in the form of subscription-based apps who bring in enough every year to offset the 50 cent-per-app download fee, and because the income is a recurring one, the developer doesn't have to worry about having to pay the fee indefinitely. For example, I am currently paying S$40 a year for ivory, a third-party Mastodon client. Normally, Apple gets $6 (15% as this is the second year). With the CTF, Apple instead gets S$0.73, the developer pays $1.20 for payment processing (assume 3%), and keeps the additional $4. Of course, the challenge is whether the developer can get as many people to download said app outside the App Store, as well as convince them to subscribe without the ease of iTunes and Sign in with Apple (since apps like this tend to have very minimal marginal costs incurred).

So this could mean higher revenue per user, but fewer subs, resulting in less total revenue overall. What's missing from this conversation is the aggregator role Apple has played in amassing a pool of consumers with high disposable net income who are ready to spend on apps and content, and in growing the pie for everybody, and whether they deserve credit for this.

And of course, the CTF is a poor choice for a free app, or one that does not really make all that much money per download (eg: a free, ad-supported app). It doesn't make each of them bad (though they are certainly worse compared to simply not having to pay at all). It just means that you are either at an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you choose to monetise your product, and I think that's what this conversation doesn't really address. Yes, it's bad for a few larger developers, but what's the impact on the entire developer ecosystem as a whole if these larger developers were allowed to get out of paying their share?

You all already know the answer, in that you have seen what generous tax breaks for billionaires have done to the deficit in the US, and the ramifications. Sure, it's easy to say "let the government (or Apple in this case) pay for it", but the money still has to come from somewhere, and come from somewhere it will.
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
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a third option wont be happening. Microsoft failed and they had deep pockets. it would take too much money now to fight the two entrenched camps. and it would take a big change of function to convince masses to switch. and it would have to be free so who funds it?
Agree.
you might not like paying for digital content provision. so be it. but really when most of it is only 15% (not the touted 30%) and alternative stores are talking about 12% instead, where it is the motivation and money to pay nothing?
In reality it is more like 30%.

What Apple are happy to tout: How many (more than 90% of) developers are "small developers".
What they keep mum about: For what percentage of downloads or revenue they actually account for.

I'm don't know how long consumers keep the average Spotify subscription. But considering the aggressiveness with which Apple is pushing their own competing service as a free trial, it's absolutely reasonable for an average consumer to stop their Spotify subscription and try a competing service. When then returning and resubscribing to Spotify, the subscription would, again, be subject to 30% commission.
What's missing from this conversation is the aggregator role Apple has played in amassing a pool of consumers with high disposable net income who are ready to spend on apps and content, and in growing the pie for everybody, and whether they deserve credit for this
That's true for ISPs or the power company as well.

So do we - would you? - support them charging a large traffic generator like Apple, whether that's enabled by legislation or by blocking/throttling their access?
you have seen what generous tax breaks for billionaires have done to the deficit in the US, and the ramifications. Sure, it's easy to say "let the government (or Apple in this case) pay for it", but the money still has to come from somewhere, and come from somewhere it will.
Contrary to the U.S. government, Apple and their iOS platform are far running a deficit. These App Store fees come from developers and ultimately consumers and go, above a certain threshold, straight into Apple's earnings.

But I agree with your comparison (of Apple's developers fee) to income tax. That's certainly quite fitting.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,667
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That's true for ISPs or the power company as well.
So do we - would you? - support them charging a large traffic generator like Apple, whether that's enabled by legislation or by blocking/throttling their access?
It would be interesting to see them try, since it would likely be the consumer paying in the form of higher monthly phone bills, not Apple, which would probably just result in consumers shopping around for the cheapest carrier. We kinda saw this play out in the early days when Apple went exclusive with AT&T, and many people were willing to switch to AT&T just to be able to purchase the iPhone.

Apple could in theory win by pitting one carrier against the other. That's how Apple Pay won, no?
 

wirefire

macrumors member
Jun 12, 2015
85
78
If I want Spotify on my Mac (which I don't), I go to their site and download it, then install it. Done.

There's no good reason -- Apple profits don't count -- that it should be different on a device that fits in my pocket.
Apple profits do count…. Because if they don’t make money they won’t exist. It is funny that no one cared about this the first few years of the iPhones existence. Only now that they have a huge install base and apple’s financials lean more and more on services does anyone care.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,277
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While we are at income tax comparisons:
  • Charging developers for sales of digital goods/services 30% or 15% of revenue and
  • developers of apps that sell physical goods/services absolutely nothing (!)
👉 That's about as (un)fair as a country charging income tax on employment income - but no tax on interest and dividends.
 
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