Spotify Complains That Apple Hasn't Approved Update With Subscription Pricing and Links in EU

[wbeasley]

Providing the access is different than deserving credit for someone else's success. You have claimed that the iPhone is responsible for Spotify's success, that is a different claim than saying that the iPhone provided access to the market.

having an app available on a very popular OS is leveraging the success of that OS. in this instance iPhone.
the iPhone is Apple's success. And Spotify are very happy to let users download their app from there. they just dont want to pay anything for the privilege.

And Apple happily let them put their app there for free so long as their is no In App Purchase going on.
That's a pretty fare deal. How many Apple devices is Spotify installed on? Someone must have stats.

 

[bcortens]

having an app available on a very popular OS is leveraging the success of that OS. in this instance iPhone.
the iPhone is Apple's success. And Spotify are very happy to let users download their app from there. they just dont want to pay anything for the privilege.

I am not saying they didn't leverage access to those users to increase their success, I am saying that it is not the iPhone that caused Spotify to be successful. A different point. Access to users on an OS is what was required, any OS would do, the OS itself did not cause Spotify to be successful, which is what I am disputing.

Speaking of paying:
I suppose you believe Apple should have paid 30% of every iTunes purchase to MS for the privilege of being on Windows? Microsoft really didn't have great managers did they? They really should have been monetizing access to their users better!

 

[dmylrea]

Windows provided that access. Just as iPhone provided access to a huge market for Spotify. In an alternate universe that access could possibly have been provided by Symbian or Celestial Whales or Tardigrades but in the real world that we inhabit that access was provided by Windows and iPhone. Why is it so hard to accept these plain facts?

Such twisted logic! You're only presenting HALF the "plain facts". It's a symbiotic relationship. Neither would exist without the other and both get a benefit from each other. iPhone, basically, wouldn't exist if apps disappeared.

 

[heretiq]

Such twisted logic! You're only presenting HALF the "plain facts". It's a symbiotic relationship. Neither would exist without the other and both get a benefit from each other. iPhone, basically, wouldn't exist if apps disappeared.

There's no debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. It's an uncontested fact that iPhone benefits from apps, but that was not the subject of the conversation. The subject was whether Spotify's growth and success was aided by its launch and continued availability on iPhone which provided it nearly friction-less access to a huge consolidated market. Why is it like pulling teeth to get acknowledgement of that simple fact?

 

[bcortens]

There's no debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. It's an uncontested fact that iPhone benefits from apps, but that was not the subject of the conversation. The subject was whether Spotify's growth and success was aided by its launch and continued availability on iPhone which provided it nearly friction-less access to a huge consolidated market. Why is it like pulling teeth to get acknowledgement of that simple fact?

You didn't start out with the more nuanced take that availability on iPhone aided its success.

Hmmm .. so why didn't they develop Spotify for the Blackberry, Symbian, Palm, Windows Mobile and other smartphone platforms that existed alongside the iPhone when it was launched in 2008? Could it be that the nascent iPhone market and the even more nascent iPhone development ecosystem were unique and essential for Spotify’s development and success? 🤔

You started out arguing that the iPhone was essential for Spotify's success.

 

[dmylrea]

There's no debate that it's a symbiotic relationship. It's an uncontested fact that iPhone benefits from apps, but that was not the subject of the conversation. The subject was whether Spotify's growth and success was aided by its launch and continued availability on iPhone which provided it nearly friction-less access to a huge consolidated market. Why is it like pulling teeth to get acknowledgement of that simple fact?

You agree with my post, yet you thumbs down it? Interesting.

The issue is, the relationship between Apple and Spotify's success is no different than literally any other business that is built and succeeds on the fact that another product exists. What is so special about Spotify in this scenario? How about car tire manufacturers having a " nearly friction-less access to a huge consolidated market" of car owners? Every manufacturer of food in a grocery store should be beholden to the store? Televisions and TV networks. The list is long.

 

[wbeasley]

I am not saying they didn't leverage access to those users to increase their success, I am saying that it is not the iPhone that caused Spotify to be successful. A different point. Access to users on an OS is what was required, any OS would do, the OS itself did not cause Spotify to be successful, which is what I am disputing.

Speaking of paying:
I suppose you believe Apple should have paid 30% of every iTunes purchase to MS for the privilege of being on Windows? Microsoft really didn't have great managers did they? They really should have been monetizing access to their users better!

But Apple let you install their apps and sign in with an email that has a paid subscription linked to it. Apple make nothing on that download.

 

[heretiq]

I am not saying they didn't leverage access to those users to increase their success, I am saying that it is not the iPhone that caused Spotify to be successful. A different point. Access to users on an OS is what was required, any OS would do, the OS itself did not cause Spotify to be successful, which is what I am disputing.

Seriously? So I take the Keikyu-Kuko Line (KK) from Haneda Airport to Taito Kariminarimon in Tokyo. I get there safely and on time, but I refuse to give the KK line credit for getting me there safely and on time .. because I could possibly have got there on time and safely on the imaginary ZZ line — if it existed. 🤔

 

[wbeasley]

I am not saying they didn't leverage access to those users to increase their success, I am saying that it is not the iPhone that caused Spotify to be successful. A different point. Access to users on an OS is what was required, any OS would do, the OS itself did not cause Spotify to be successful, which is what I am disputing.

Speaking of paying:
I suppose you believe Apple should have paid 30% of every iTunes purchase to MS for the privilege of being on Windows? Microsoft really didn't have great managers did they? They really should have been monetizing access to their users better!

And the second part, I go to a retail shop.
I buy something. They didnt make it. They stock it.
Some of the money goes to the shop to pay rent and staff and profit to keep these things being available.
I go to that shop because I know they usually have what I want and it's convenient.

What's the difference in playing Apple for the same service?

 

[wbeasley]

it's tiring reading the clearly anti Apple posts...

i'm just going to put my trust that Apple engage some expensive legal eagles and push through the BS complaint and make mincemeat of them.

discussing what ifs with you wont change your opinions.
perhaps on some sad level, this is the only time people engage with you.
i feel sad if that's the case.

nothing anyone says here will change or influence the outcomes.

perhaps Apple might have people reading this and get some ideas from those of us who disagree with what's happening and read the opposite comments and use them to find legal workarounds... we can hope.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So I take the Keikyu-Kuko Line (KK) from Haneda Airport to Taito Kariminarimon in Tokyo. I get there safely and on time, but I refuse to give the KK line credit for getting me there safely and on time .. because I could possibly have got there on time and safely on the imaginary ZZ line — if it existed

Difference:
You’re paying the Keikyu-Kuko line a fare.
The same fare as other riders.
Not a commission on your salary and/or business earnings.

 

[Zest28]

I am not saying they didn't leverage access to those users to increase their success, I am saying that it is not the iPhone that caused Spotify to be successful. A different point. Access to users on an OS is what was required, any OS would do, the OS itself did not cause Spotify to be successful, which is what I am disputing.

Speaking of paying:
I suppose you believe Apple should have paid 30% of every iTunes purchase to MS for the privilege of being on Windows? Microsoft really didn't have great managers did they? They really should have been monetizing access to their users better!

Ofcourse. If you buy a Spotify gift card in your local shop in the shopping mall, they also get a commission for selling it you.

You really think those physically stores are selling Spotify subscriptions for free?

It's the exact same thing that Apple gets their sales commissions.

But these companies don't even pay anything to Apple while leeching of the platform. While other stores that sell Spotify gift cards do get a sales commission.

 

[AppliedMicro]

I go to a retail shop.
I buy something. They didnt make it. They stock it.
What's the difference in playing Apple for the same service?

If the shop increases its prices (by improving the product, for example), they’ll pocket that price increase - they don’t pay commission to their biggest competitor.

Also, Apple don’t stock things. They charge commission - while taking 0% of stock risk (unsold items), beyond approving apps.

 

[Zest28]

If the shop increases its prices (by improving the product, for example), they’ll pocket that price increase - they don’t pay commission to their biggest competitor.

Also, Apple don’t stock things. They charge commission - while taking 0% of stock risk (unsold items), beyond approving apps.

You cannot place a product in Walmart without Walmart getting their cut.

Spotify pays nothing to Apple while being in their store which is very unusual and Spotify should have been grateful for that.

 

[heretiq]

Difference:
You’re paying the Keikyu-Kuko line a fare.
The same fare as other riders.
Not a commission on your salary and/or business earnings.

Huh? The only thing that separates a fare from a commission is a division by the value obtained from the event (which is normalized for every developer and spelled out in the agreement that Spotify and other developers sign and agree to pay Apple *before* they start to take advantage of the benefits and access to the enormous market created by the iPhone/AppStore platform). This argument does not negate the fact that Spotify and other developers derive value from the platform — which is the topic of this discussion, and which is perplexingly difficult for some to acknowledge.

 

[heretiq]

If the shop increases its prices (by improving the product, for example), they’ll pocket that price increase - they don’t pay commission to their biggest competitor.

Also, Apple don’t stock things. They charge commission - while taking 0% of stock risk (unsold items), beyond approving apps.

Do you seriously believe the cost of maintaining an infrastructure that supports the global distribution of 2M apps and managing and supporting 1M developers and their weekly/monthly app updates, and ongoing API innovation, documentation and training is zero?

 

[heretiq]

You didn't start out with the more nuanced take that availability on iPhone aided its success.

You started out arguing that the iPhone was essential for Spotify's success.

That argument hasn’t changed. Spotify rightfully bet on the iPhone. The iPhone won and the alternatives (except Android which was adopted years after the iPhone) failed. It was the iPhone platform and not some hypothetical alternate reality platform that contributed to Spotify’s growth and success when Spotify desperately needed growth. Arguably the iPhone is perhaps less essential now, but it was the essential element and a game changer for Spotify in the early years.

 

[bcortens]

Ofcourse. If you buy a Spotify gift card in your local shop in the shopping mall, they also get a commission for selling it you.

You really think those physically stores are selling Spotify subscriptions for free?

It's the exact same thing that Apple gets their sales commissions.

But these companies don't even pay anything to Apple while leeching of the platform. While other stores that sell Spotify gift cards do get a sales commission.

Apple doesn't own the screens in Spotify's app. iOS is not a store. You can make all the analogies to stores you want but they don't apply because the OS itself is not Apple's store.

 

[AppliedMicro]

cannot place a product in Walmart without Walmart getting their cut.

You can place adverts / links to your own web store in the product box.
Does Walmart regulate that?

Also, which physical retail store operates in a monopoly in their neighbourhood (OS) and as a duopoly for virtually all retail space nationwide?

if Walmart operated in such a duopoly for all retail space nationwide, I’d advocate for lawmakers to regulate them and offer their retail shelves for fair, non-discriminatory pricing.

Spotify pays nothing to Apple while being in their store which is very unusual

They do pay the developer fee - which Apple chose to set low, to attract customers (developers) to their platform.

This argument does not negate the fact that Spotify and other developers derive value from the platform — which is the topic of this discussion, and which is perplexingly difficult for some to acknowledge.

It’s absolutely not. They derive value - so do Apple by having the Spotify app and all those other apps available for download and installation on their platform.

Do you seriously believe the cost of maintaining an infrastructure that supports the global distribution of 2M apps and managing and supporting 1M developers and their weekly/monthly app updates, and ongoing API innovation, documentation and training is zero?

Absolutely not. Of course I don’t believe that.
But neither are their earnings zero - they’re earning tons from selling iOS devices.

But I do seriously believe that monopolists and duopolists should not be entitled to “charge as they please” in an industry as essential to consumers and businesses as modern smartphone platforms.

👉🏻 Apple is not a random retail store among many (competing ones)

 

[wbeasley]

That argument hasn’t changed. Spotify rightfully bet on the iPhone. The iPhone won and the alternatives (except Android which was adopted years after the iPhone) failed. It was the iPhone platform and not some hypothetical alternate reality platform that contributed to Spotify’s growth and success when Spotify desperately needed growth. Arguably the iPhone is perhaps less essential now, but it was the essential element and a game changer for Spotify in the early years.

I see the same old answers, from the same people, popping up to your post.
They dont want to listen.
The same stale arguments, time again and again. Even when corrected by many about the inaccurate info they post...

I no longer care to give them air time responding. They live for the engagement not the discussion.

I hope Apple's lawyers destroy the weak rubbish the DoJ have alleged.
Given many on here agree and also can find holes, it shouldnt be hard for professionals to pick it apart.

Keep fighting the good fight. I like reading your answers.

Must say since I imported my Spotify playlists into Apple Music this time I'm happy with the way it works. About 99% of tracks were found. That'll do to be rid of the EU lobbying whiner. And so much of Apple music is lossless or Spatial Audio now. for the same price. what a pity Spotify never delivered on their promise to have better quality streams. Oh and there's heaps of music videos and video playlists as well. Great to chill out to while on this site reading the nonsense

 

[wbeasley]

So after ditching my Spotify Premium sub I get an email...

To those who claim iPhone and iOS hasnt propelled Spotify to where it is today, look at the list of places where I can get the app.

It's not desktop or their webpage. They embed a link to the Apple app store. They STEER me there rather than to their webpage to put their case of how to pay and why there is no In App Purchase available (that's the RENEW BUTTON).

 

[AppliedMicro]

I see the same old answers, from the same people, popping up to your post.
They dont want to listen.

Same is true for the other side(s) of this discussion. I certainly agree it’s getting a bit stale.

Must say since I imported my Spotify playlists into Apple Music this time I'm happy with the way it works. About 99% of tracks were found. That'll do to be rid of the EU lobbying whiner. And so much of Apple music is lossless or Spatial Audio now. for the same price. what a pity Spotify never delivered on their promise to have better quality streams. Oh and there's heaps of music videos and video playlists as well.

Good that there’s multiple services to choose from, right?

👉 Competition can be great, can‘t it?

It’s not hard to imagine music streaming having gone the other way: A few high-profile exclusivity deals - or a joint venture between some of the biggest recording companies - and consumers, as well as artists/rights holders might have converged on a leading service (say Spotify) or two, and we‘d have a monopoly or duopoly in music streaming too.

👉🏻 By the way: how much did you pay for exporting your Spotify playlists into Apple Music?
Since Spotify provided (invested into) the tools and licensed that music, thereby enabling you to create these playlists - would you agree they deserve to charge a fee for exporting them, if they so desired?

look at the list of places where I can get the app.

It's not desktop or their webpage. They embed a link to the Apple app store. They STEER me there rather than to their webpage

Of course - where else would they „steer“ them to, considering Apple has (had) a monopoly on distributing apps to consumers? They know that an app with background playback is a better user experience than a web site.

Also, in your case, I assume you‘ve been using Spotify on mobile devices (an iPhone and/or iPad). And you‘ve obviously had not only an account but also a subscription. Again, where else would they be steering you, if not to a download for the type of device you‘ve been using?

 

[DaPhox]

Same is true for the other side(s) of this discussion. I certainly agree it’s getting a bit stale.

Good that there’s multiple services to choose from, right?

👉 Competition can be great, can‘t it?

It’s not hard to imagine music streaming having gone the other way: A few high-profile exclusivity deals - or a joint venture between some of the biggest recording companies - and consumers, as well as artists/rights holders might have converged on a leading service (say Spotify) or two, and we‘d have a monopoly or duopoly in music streaming too.

👉🏻 By the way: how much did you pay for exporting your Spotify playlists into Apple Music?
Since Spotify provided (invested into) the tools and licensed that music, thereby enabling you to create these playlists - would you agree they deserve to charge a fee for exporting them, if they so desired?


Of course - where else would they „steer“ them to, considering Apple has (had) a monopoly on distributing apps to consumers? They know that an app with background playback is a better user experience than a web site.

Also, in your case, I assume you‘ve been using Spotify on mobile devices (an iPhone and/or iPad). And you‘ve obviously had not only an account but also a subscription. Again, where else would they be steering you, if not to a download for the type of device you‘ve been using?

There are a couple of logical fallacies in This post. 1 ex: EU has to interfere due to stale competition. While replying to a post describing change of services due to competition.

 

[bcortens]

There are a couple of logical fallacies in This post. 1 ex: EU has to interfere due to stale competition. While replying on a post describing change of services due to competition.

Technically wbeasley said part of why they switched was to spite Spotify for trying to seek relief for anticompetitive practices.

Must say since I imported my Spotify playlists into Apple Music this time I'm happy with the way it works. About 99% of tracks were found. That'll do to be rid of the EU lobbying whiner. And so much of Apple music is lossless or Spatial Audio now. for the same price. what a pity Spotify never delivered on their promise to have better quality streams. Oh and there's heaps of music videos and video playlists as well. Great to chill out to while on this site reading the nonsense

 

[DaPhox]

Technically wbeasley said part of why they switched was to spite Spotify for trying to seek relief for anticompetitive practices.

Yes he was able to switch.