Surface Neo

[maflynn]

I choose to use a technology because it suits me, not others.

I agree, and as long as people don't make blind assumptions, and blanket statements, all well and good. So saying things like "there is no quality software available for consumers! " is unhelpful and flies in the face of what you're now saying.

but there is a distinct quality difference in almost everything.

Yes, and this is why I moved on from Macs to PCs. Apple had been cutting corners and forcing changes on us that make the experience more frustrating. Just take the butterfly keyboard. Going into the MBP forum, its hard to miss people advocating to new buyers that they have to buy applecare [because the MBP has so many problems]

The tight integration and the great Apple ecosystem are the biggest reasons for me to be using Apple products.

No question, apple's integration with macOS and iOS is a nice advantage. I won't argue that, but I will say for me its not a must have, and in fact I've found plenty of laptop/phone integration apps and workflows that I'm not evening missing it

.You can of course argue about features and programs that are available on Windows, but at the end of the day Windows is like Android: A mess

There you go again making unsubstantiated blanket statements. I think you were doing fine pointing out that for you Macs were a better choice for your wants/needs but then you throw off another passive aggressive comment saying how bad windows is.

I think this dialog has been beaten to death and since you think there's no quality windows apps and windows is a mess why bother continueing this discussion. I'm out.

 

[petvas]

Well, have a look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7znu6p & https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
& https://www.slashgear.com/how-microsoft-can-fix-its-windows-10-updates-mess-17584124/

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Well, have a look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/7znu6p & https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
& https://www.slashgear.com/how-microsoft-can-fix-its-windows-10-updates-mess-17584124/

Now, all of a sudden you are moving the goalposts again and pointing to an almost never occurring glitch in the update screen. For all I know it can also be a glitch in the graphical hardware of the persons computer. You are far far away from your original statements.

Furthermore, it is very easy to point to some rant sites about Windows. One can just as easily point to some rant sites about MacOS, iOS or Android.

So, what is your point exactly? Showing all the negative nooks and cranny's you can find about Windows? One can easily do that with any piece of software (including MacOs, iOs, Android etc.).

Don't bother, I don't want to know your answer since you seem incapable of a balanced unbiased opinion and probably will change the goalposts again.

Have a nice day.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Well, I am still using Windows every day..




Photos syncs only if you use Onedrive and it doesn't work well. It is still very buggy and it cannot be compared with Apple Photos or Google Photos. It just doesn't work. You cannot even create an album directly in the cloud, unless you use OneDrive first. The way it works is amateur work and it shows..Also, on mobile there is no Photos app. You have to use OneDrive and it sucks.



Miracast never worked for me. It streams very specific content and many times it will stop working during playback or it will lose the connection. Not a good solution! Miracast and DLNA streaming in Windows 10 sucks. It is another example of a feature that on paper is great but in reality doesn't work.


I need an interface, an app that will show my SMS, just like iMessage. Cortana doesn't do that. It is also not available on all countries..



You really don't know that Skype for Business is something completely different than Skype for consumers? Also, it has been discontinued and it MS Teams is the new business communications tool. Skype for consumers works bad. It might be widely available but it has bad quality video and audio. I experience it every day with different people from different countries..



Well, there is no quality software available for consumers! Businesses of course use Windows because it is much cheaper and is tailored for the needs of Enterprises.

Well we have brought you a long way from your previous stance of does not exist to bashing all the similar feature that do exist suddenly LOL

Your welcome to you opinion and personal usage findings but it's clear to all where you stand on objectivity

Enough said

 

[maflynn]

Well, have a look here:

macOS is a mess - have a look here:
Known bugs in macOS Mojave 10.14.4: an incomplete summary

See what I did there, I made a blanket statement, grabbed a link off google and now said the entire OS is a mess based on one thing.

I know you want to justify and validate your decisions, but those are your decisions. Windows has problems, bugs and inconsistencies. macOS has problems, bugs and inconsistencies. Pick what works best for you and don't try to undermine other people's choices.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Delete. Double post.

 

[sracer]

Sigh. This is 2019. This thread is exhibit A in disproving the theory of evolution. We are clearly incapable, as a species, of evolving past "my OS of choice is clearly superior to yours" in a thread about a new Windows-based device.

 

[petvas]

Sigh. This is 2019. This thread is exhibit A in disproving the theory of evolution. We are clearly incapable, as a species, of evolving past "my OS of choice is clearly superior to yours" in a thread about a new Windows-based device.

Stating why I believe that Windows is still not a valid choice for me is apparently making people here in this thread a bit angry. The point is very simple: No matter what devices Microsoft brings out in the future, as long as they don't solve the fundamental issues that plague Windows, there is no way that I will consider them. What others are doing is not my problem. As I said, not everybody can understand what I am saying. As simple as that.

Many people use Windows every day, most of them not because they love using it, but because they have to. Of course there are people out there that do love Windows, and don't care about the issues I am facing with it.

I accept your choices and I don't really care. Here in this forum people are too fast to start attacking someone for his opinion. In every sentence we must be careful to write "for me" just to avoid being attacked. Of course I write my opinion. Who ever said that this must be the opinion of everybody? To be honest I don't care.
Windows has of course its place and many businesses would have severe issues functioning without the Windows platform.
Something else that I didn't mention before is that my opinion is in regards to using a computer for private use mainly, and also business, but not on the context of Fortune 500 companies..
If people are happy with Windows, I am happy for them. That doesn't mean I cannot have an opinion. In my eyes Windows has severe issues that Apple solved many years ago. But that's me..

As for the Neo device, it looks very nice, but I haven't seen yet any usage scenario that fits my needs. Maybe that will change until the device comes out.

Windows is good enough. This is ok for the majority of people. I don't want good enough. This is my opinion and please don't generalise it again.
[automerge]1570216564[/automerge]

macOS is a mess - have a look here:
Known bugs in macOS Mojave 10.14.4: an incomplete summary

See what I did there, I made a blanket statement, grabbed a link off google and now said the entire OS is a mess based on one thing.

I know you want to justify and validate your decisions, but those are your decisions. Windows has problems, bugs and inconsistencies. macOS has problems, bugs and inconsistencies. Pick what works best for you and don't try to undermine other people's choices.

Well, I didn't Google. I had read these threads before. Of course every OS has issues. Nothing is perfect. I am not looking to justify my decisions to you or anyone else. I am not undermining the choices of others. I am stating my opinion why I believe that no matter what hardware comes out of Redmond, their software will be the problem.

 

[jrichards1408]

Stating why I believe that Windows is still not a valid choice for me is apparently making people here in this thread a bit angry. The point is very simple: No matter what devices Microsoft brings out in the future, as long as they don't solve the fundamental issues that plague Windows, there is no way that I will consider them. What others are doing is not my problem. As I said, not everybody can understand what I am saying. As simple as that.

Many people use Windows every day, most of them not because they love using it, but because they have to. Of course there are people out there that do love Windows, and don't care about the issues I am facing with it.

I accept your choices and I don't really care. Here in this forum people are too fast to start attacking someone for his opinion. In every sentence we must be careful to write "for me" just to avoid being attacked. Of course I write my opinion. Who ever said that this must be the opinion of everybody? To be honest I don't care.
Windows has of course its place and many businesses would have severe issues functioning without the Windows platform.
Something else that I didn't mention before is that my opinion is in regards to using a computer for private use mainly, and also business, but not on the context of Fortune 500 companies..
If people are happy with Windows, I am happy for them. That doesn't mean I cannot have an opinion. In my eyes Windows has severe issues that Apple solved many years ago. But that's me..

As for the Neo device, it looks very nice, but I haven't seen yet any usage scenario that fits my needs. Maybe that will change until the device comes out.

Windows is good enough. This is ok for the majority of people. I don't want good enough. This is my opinion and please don't generalise it again.
[automerge]1570216564[/automerge]

Well, I didn't Google. I had read these threads before. Of course every OS has issues. Nothing is perfect. I am not looking to justify my decisions to you or anyone else. I am not undermining the choices of others. I am stating my opinion why I believe that no matter what hardware comes out of Redmond, their software will be the problem.

So what's your bashing off Windows got to do with anything about the actual device in this topic?

 

[petvas]

So what's your bashing off Windows got to do with anything about the actual device in this topic?

Everything! Neo is a device that runs Windows 10X and as such it will become a member of the same ecosystem.

PS: I am not alone here. I just listened to the latest podcast of Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Joe also do not understand what the point of the Neo device is..

 

[Thysanoptera]

Everything! Neo is a device that runs Windows 10X and as such it will become a member of the same ecosystem.

PS: I am not alone here. I just listened to the latest podcast of Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Joe also do not understand what the point of the Neo device is..

"Is this thing even worth reviewing? Right off the bat, I'm glad to see that my initial reactions to this thing were accurate. Anyone who believes this thing is a game changer is a tool. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. "

-Paul Thurrott, 10/6/2010, opinion on first gen iPad.

 

[petvas]

"Is this thing even worth reviewing? Right off the bat, I'm glad to see that my initial reactions to this thing were accurate. Anyone who believes this thing is a game changer is a tool. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. "

-Paul Thurrott, 10/6/2010, opinion on first gen iPad.

Well, the iPad has changed nothing..The iPhone has!

 

[maflynn]

Stating why I believe that Windows is still not a valid choice for me is apparently making people here in this thread a bit angry.

No one is angry, and I may be going out on a limb but people don't care that you prefer macs, but you are the one making blanket statements about how the ecosystem is horrible, using your personal experience as a statement of fact.

No matter what devices Microsoft brings out in the future, as long as they don't solve the fundamental issues that plague Windows, there is no way that I will consider them

Again more blanket statements and generalities.

I accept your choices and I don't really care.

Yet you seem to bending over backwards in a Neo thread stating how bad windows and the ecosystem is. You seem more interested in casting aspersions

Windows is good enough. This is ok for the majority of people. I don't want good enough. This is my opinion and please don't generalise it again.

Good enough? More passive aggresive back hand slights? For many of us windows is more then good enough, its the best tool to get the job done. For the most part we are individually stating specifically for us what works, but you seem more intent to throw digs and disses at the platform as a whole, projecting your personal experience, thinking everyone has the same experience and the same frustrations. To put it another way, you're the one making generalities - you're own words:

Windows is the biggest issue

Well, there is no quality software available for consumers!

Windows lacks polish

but at the end of the day Windows is like Android: A mess

Everything! Neo is a device that runs Windows 10X and as such it will become a member of the same ecosystem.

Yes, and that's a good thing for many of us, I know you hate the platform and are not willing to accept that its more then "good enough"

PS: I am not alone here. I just listened to the latest podcast of Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Joe also do not understand what the point of the Neo device is..

I didn't listen to the podcast, but my only comment is that the majority of people said that for personal computers back in the day, graphical interfaces, the mouse, smart phones and the iPad and even most recently the airpods. My point is this: The lack of some people's understanding of the product doesn't gaurentee that its an instant failure or its a bad product. As I said earlier in this thread. I can see how useful this dual screen setup will be for me. I have no idea if it will be a success or if others will agree but for my personal usage its something that I may be looking to get once its released. It doesn't matter if Thurrott doesn't see any advantages, I'm not buying it for him

 

[SteveJUAE]

No one is angry, and I may be going out on a limb but people don't care that you prefer macs, but you are the one making blanket statements about how the ecosystem is horrible, using your personal experience as a statement of fact.


Again more blanket statements and generalities.


Yet you seem to bending over backwards in a Neo thread stating how bad windows and the ecosystem is. You seem more interested in casting aspersions


Good enough? More passive aggresive back hand slights? For many of us windows is more then good enough, its the best tool to get the job done. For the most part we are individually stating specifically for us what works, but you seem more intent to throw digs and disses at the platform as a whole, projecting your personal experience, thinking everyone has the same experience and the same frustrations. To put it another way, you're the one making generalities - you're own words:







Yes, and that's a good thing for many of us, I know you hate the platform and are not willing to accept that its more then "good enough"


I didn't listen to the podcast, but my only comment is that the majority of people said that for personal computers back in the day, graphical interfaces, the mouse, smart phones and the iPad and even most recently the airpods. My point is this: The lack of some people's understanding of the product doesn't gaurentee that its an instant failure or its a bad product. As I said earlier in this thread. I can see how useful this dual screen setup will be for me. I have no idea if it will be a success or if others will agree but for my personal usage its something that I may be looking to get once its released. It doesn't matter if Thurrott doesn't see any advantages, I'm not buying it for him

However frustrating it may be I hoped we were going to ignore this individual as it is derailing what should otherwise be an interesting topic and not a oneman crusade against windows and android etc

 

[SteveJUAE]

Mean while

I find it almost strange that there is so many stances on accepting different form factors for laptops/tablets/Phones

It's almost like so many people consider only clam shell or slab for phones/tablets

We see diversification in so many other products we buy not least in the usual analogy to vehicles, why do so many find it objectionable that devices like 2 in 1's, FOLD and NEO/DUO exist

There is almost only one way to find out how big a market is for alternative forms and there progression. Even laptops were a slow start and every home had a desktop 1st

I'm excited to see how the NEO can fit in to my flow or not

 

[LeeW]

I find it almost strange that there is so many stances on accepting different form factors for laptops/tablets/Phones

I can understand alternative forms, just not so much this one. If I want to use it as a tablet for media consumption there is a dividing line, no matter what you say, that will annoy most people trying to watch TV or whatever. The same for browsing.

So you use one screen only, well that's a waste of real estate.

Want to use it like a laptop? Ok, slide the keyboard up, loose one screen, now you only have a 9-inch screen to work with which is quite small for a use case where regular use of the keyboard is required. The nice touch is that you can move it up and get a trackpad if it's good.

The alternative form is just a larger touch bar, it's not really going to be much more useful than Emoji selection, spell checker, calculator or something like that. As useless as the touch bar really, the available screen space is too small for anything else meaningful, much like the Asus units with a similar approach.

So would it replace my laptop? No, would it replace my iPad for media consumption? No. So I would see it as another device rather than a replacement of something which would make it a no go for me. But for those that could make use of that form factor, it could be a useful multi-purpose device.

Will be interesting to see how they get on trying to convince developers there is a big enough market for them to invest in diverting time and effort into content creation.

I can however totally get the smaller version, that would be a replacement for my iPhone or any single screen mobile. I completely get the multi-tasking potential of a device at that size. Moreso than the Galaxy fold.

 

[Queen6]

Mean while

I find it almost strange that there is so many stances on accepting different form factors for laptops/tablets/Phones

It's almost like so many people consider only clam shell or slab for phones/tablets

We see diversification in so many other products we buy not least in the usual analogy to vehicles, why do so many find it objectionable that devices like 2 in 1's, FOLD and NEO/DUO exist

There is almost only one way to find out how big a market is for alternative forms and there progression. Even laptops were a slow start and every home had a desktop 1st

I'm excited to see how the NEO can fit in to my flow or not

Likely the hate on MR is driven by the fact Apple don't have a 2in1 device, day it does watch all the 180's 2in1's most definitely serve purpose, I always travel with two notebooks and one is a 2in1 nor would I limit myself to solely basic clamshell notebooks or a mobile OS that is inferior to a full desktop OS.

Neo is an interesting proposition and may just be the first duel screen device that offers real-world usability thx to having a physical keyboard. I think Microsoft is doing a good job these days with the hardware, releasing relevant updates and introducing new products that can and do disrupt the industry...

Q-6

 

[moderniste]

I'm not getting one, but I'm so curious about it. The form factor has a lot of potential. If I had money to burn, I'd buy one just to play around with it. I hope it becomes successful so that this style can be refined and improved over time.

 

[Queen6]

I'm not getting one, but I'm so curious about it. The form factor has a lot of potential. If I had money to burn, I'd buy one just to play around with it. I hope it becomes successful so that this style can be refined and improved over time.

I think that's why Microsoft has done the reveal so early, to get developers onboard with W10X showing that both Neo & Duo are just speculation. To me as long as the SW delivers the Neo has tremendous potential. Personally I can justify the cost as I'd use it in business.

Q-6

 

[sracer]

Mean while

I find it almost strange that there is so many stances on accepting different form factors for laptops/tablets/Phones

It's almost like so many people consider only clam shell or slab for phones/tablets

We see diversification in so many other products we buy not least in the usual analogy to vehicles, why do so many find it objectionable that devices like 2 in 1's, FOLD and NEO/DUO exist

There is almost only one way to find out how big a market is for alternative forms and there progression. Even laptops were a slow start and every home had a desktop 1st

I'm excited to see how the NEO can fit in to my flow or not

If the software execution is on point, then I KNOW that the NEO will fit my workflows and use cases. It addresses the two concerns I had with my Lenovo Yoga Book (Android edition)... lack of full stylus support (with pressure sensitivity and palm rejection) on the screen (the Halo keyboard that doubles as a wacom tablet is excellent) and follow-on support by the manufacturer.

 

[petvas]

I think that's why Microsoft has done the reveal so early, to get developers onboard with W10X showing that both Neo & Duo are just speculation. To me as long as the SW delivers the Neo has tremendous potential. Personally I can justify the cost as I'd use it in business.

Q-6

The thing is that Microsoft has lost developers years ago, when they lost the mobile market. Developers are more interested in Android and iOS, than on Windows and Mac. This is why Apple is bringing Catalina out, and is trying to make it easier for developers to make apps on the Mac. If Microsoft wants to convince developers to start developing interesting apps for Windows 10X and the Neo especially, then many things will have to happen. It will be very difficult but I am also curious how this will develop in the next months.

 

[SteveJUAE]

I'm not getting one, but I'm so curious about it. The form factor has a lot of potential. If I had money to burn, I'd buy one just to play around with it. I hope it becomes successful so that this style can be refined and improved over time.

I think many went through the same curve with other tablets and bought one just to play with, providing the price is not too high

If we consider a mobile OS tablet as a toy for the coffee table and media consumption and a few dailies then the price should be low. What seems to happen is the bells and whistle high end IPads ends up as a distraction for many.

The >$800 devices deliver poor returns for most vs the bottom of the range in terms of incremental functionality based on FOMO purchases. ie you get the top of the range and it's still a relatively smartest dumb thing

Apple developers have had years to implement high end desktop equivalent Apps and they are still relatively few on a powerful CPU . Now porting mobile IOS apps to MacOS shows a lack in both OS's development and the usual extended money grab of Apple

Having great interface with stinted apps is the ultimate compromise in my books, having to start on one device and finish off on another is daft, having to buy 2 devices and choose which one is optimal for task in hand is a complication Apple has propagated for sales.

Apple has cleverly introduced that some how users are missing out not having several devices to be complete. Each part of the puzzle is $500 or $1000 purchase and forms the entrapment of leaving redundant devices if you opt out on a primary device

2 in 1's, Ultra mobiles and these newer form factors all running full OS are a complete affront that many Apple users have spent on building their ECO of $1000's, yet bulk on costs of others

Why I can see the convenience of the ECO somehow there seems a reluctance to stand back and look at value or the implications. If we simply expanded the same model to other aspects of our lives it would be ridiculous and for the wealthy only

I'm all for diversification and IPads have their place as equally do these other devices what saddens me is Apple stance on touch and these emerging devices. I think they do a disservice to their user base offering limited form factors.

I think Apple could bring something to the party, but so far has declined

The Surface 2 in 1's, NEO and DUO speaks to individualism of work flow and I'm listening

 

[Queen6]

I think many went through the same curve with other tablets and bought one just to play with, providing the price is not too high

If we consider a mobile OS tablet as a toy for the coffee table and media consumption and a few dailies then the price should be low. What seems to happen is the bells and whistle high end IPads ends up as a distraction for many.

The >$800 devices deliver poor returns for most vs the bottom of the range in terms of incremental functionality based on FOMO purchases. ie you get the top of the range and it's still a relatively smartest dumb thing

Apple developers have had years to implement high end desktop equivalent Apps and they are still relatively few on a powerful CPU . Now porting mobile IOS apps to MacOS shows a lack in both OS's development and the usual extended money grab of Apple

Having great interface with stinted apps is the ultimate compromise in my books, having to start on one device and finish off on another is daft, having to buy 2 devices and choose which one is optimal for task in hand is a complication Apple has propagated for sales.

Apple has cleverly introduced that some how users are missing out not having several devices to be complete. Each part of the puzzle is $500 or $1000 purchase and forms the entrapment of leaving redundant devices if you opt out on a primary device

2 in 1's, Ultra mobiles and these newer form factors all running full OS are a complete affront that many Apple users have spent on building their ECO of $1000's, yet bulk on costs of others

Why I can see the convenience of the ECO somehow there seems a reluctance to stand back and look at value or the implications. If we simply expanded the same model to other aspects of our lives it would be ridiculous and for the wealthy only

I'm all for diversification and IPads have their place as equally do these other devices what saddens me is Apple stance on touch and these emerging devices. I think they do a disservice to their user base offering limited form factors.

I think Apple could bring something to the party, but so far has declined

The Surface 2 in 1's, NEO and DUO speaks to individualism of work flow and I'm listening

For Apple selling hardware remains it's "bread & butter" and nevermore has Apple been more about the $$$$. Surface for Microsoft is certainly something they don't want to loose money on, equally not Microsoft's core business by any means.

Microsoft has the luxury of being capable and able of putting new categories/devices out there, more importantly the vison and freedom to do so. Apple is simply locked into a dull & boring paradigm, albeit a highly profitable one. Very last thing Apple want's is it's customers to be is individual, Apple want's them to unquestionably accept whatever Apple dishes up, no matter how segmented or the price point.

Microsoft will continue to stimulate, drive and promote other Windows IEM's to also produce new products with equal capacity at lower price points, as for Apple same old tired excuses why they cant...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Microsoft will continue to stimulate, drive and promote other Windows IEM's to also produce new products with equal capacity at lower price points, as for Apple same old tired excuses why they cant..

This where I think the Neo is being rolled out, they want to stimulate a different tablet experience and others will no doubt follow suit.

 

[maflynn]

I don't think it was linked yet, here's MS's promotional video.

The more I see of it, the more I want it.