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The new Mac mini is almost certainly coming
- Thread starter GabrieleR
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Apple would be relying on Intel to produce a suitable surface mount CPU. They probably know already if Intel will make a suitable one for the next few years. Rather than hoping that Intel have plans for an Ice Lake S CPU that would suit them, what if they just went for the H CPUs that will be destined for the 16" MacBook Pro?
It’s definitely an option from the technical standpoint. It would be a drop-in replacement as far as I know, and Apple had that option when they refreshed the mini in 2018. It’s really just a question of the target market.
But Apple chose to upgrade the power supply and thermals and use the 65W chip instead, and re-positioned the mini for pro usage rather than home consumers and switchers. Looking at the product pages on the website makes it clear exactly who they’re marketing it to (though consumers buy it also).
I’m reasonably sure Intel will have a 10th gen chip this summer. In fact they may have skipped a BGA version of the ninth gen specifically because Apple wasn’t interested in updating the mini so quickly. The mini doesn’t sell anywhere near enough to warrant yearly upgrades; even iMac is on a two year cycle. Only MBP is on a shorter cycle than two years.
I just wouldn't be surprised if Apple doubled the SSD storage on the Mini and called it a day in October this year. It would be a bit galling if the iMac then got updated with Comet Lake S and benchmarks went right past the Coffee Lake CPUs in the Mini.
Thing is, in the race to match AMD and their Ryzen CPU, I think Intel appear to be sacrificing thermal performance for outright performance on their desktop products in particular. Ice Lake S hasn't been made completely public yet in terms of heat profile but their higher end desktop SKUs may go well above 95w that the current K series Coffee Lake CPUs in the top end iMacs are rated for.
It's not necessarily the end of the world if Ice Lake S CPUs break the TDP budget of the current (or even future iMac). They have the iMac Pro design as a possibility to use, and it's time for a complete refresh anyway.
It just feels like Intel are using the S range of CPUs to go head to head with Ryzen meaning that Apple may have reason to look towards H series CPUs if they have been looking to redesign in the future if Intel have said that the top SKU options that Apple like to offer as iMac options are significantly hotter.
Now on paper this doesn't matter for the Mini which appears to rely on the 65w non-K CPUs but what if Apple were looking elsewhere for the iMac anyway because of a form factor change at the same time? Surely Apple wouldn't deliberately leave the Mac mini as the sole user of a line of outdated Intel CPUs? It would just smack of the 2014 model if the 2018 looked abandoned at the start of 2021 and the iMac had moved on.
The H line of CPUs should on paper be 45w TDP and all soldered to the motherboard like the MacBook Pro 16" but the i9 HK variants (8 core, 16 thread - allegedly 3.1GHz base clock - faster single core than the i5 Coffee Lake SKU in the 2018 iMac) would be an interesting top end SKU for a Mini - there would be enough thermal headroom to cope with sustained turbo speeds for longer in an existing Mac mini.
The i5 (4 cores, 8 threads), and i7 (6 cores, 12 threads) would add a tangible multicore benefit to users and I'd say that single core should not suffer too much up against a desktop Coffee Lake CPU.
And, of course, Apple will utilise economy of scale as the new Mini would essentially be a headless MacBook Pro 16" with no dGPU. On top of that, this combo could be used in a thinner 21.5" iMac or something similar like a 24/25" iMac that is thinner (with a dGPU).
So in effect, we have three or four products using the same family of CPUs, but with different GPUs (or no GPU at all) and most coming with screens of different sizes and resolutions.
I don’t expect a significant upgrade for the Mac Mini until after the next generation iMacs are established in the market.
The thing is, while the 2014 4th gen Haswell mobile CPU was a long lasting product, Intel's desktop CPUs are on a shorter lifespan. Their 6th generation Skylake desktop CPUs from 2015 have already been discontinued.
This leaves something like the the 7th generation Kaby Lake CPUs from the 2017 iMacs just a year later which are the oldest desktop CPUs still in mainstream production by Intel.
A matter of months newer - and significantly better value than the Kaby Lake CPUs - is the 8th generation Coffee Lake range from Q4 2017 (but effectively early to mid 2018). These up the core count to 6 for the i5 thanks to competition from AMD and their Ryzen range.
Given that Apple have seemingly skipped the 9th generation Coffee Lake Refresh from Q1 2019 as a meaningless upgrade, there's a lot of expectation on the Comet Lake S CPUs out later this year which will bring hyper threading back to the table at the possible expense of more thermal impact at higher SKUs.
If Apple are continuing with desktop CPUs they probably can't rely on Apple to provide Coffee Lake desktop until October 2022. Or if they do then the value proposition on an 'abandoned' 2018 Mini when up against a 2020 iMac which will probably get Comet Lake S and extra threads is looking poor.
The 2019 iMac may not have received the Coffee Lake refresh until months after the 2018 Mini got Coffee Lake but I can't see the Mini lingering long without a meaningful refresh if the iMac gets Comet Lake S this year.
I have even gone as far as suggesting that, thanks to the thermal issues at higher SKUs, that Apple might decide to unify desktop on the same 45w H CPUs that would get used in the MacBook Pro 16".
I believe the Mini is already being aimed at 'Pro' users - starting at double the entry price of the 2014 leaves a big gap below for iPads - a 45w H CPU with extra threads would be useful for users with multithread compute heavy workflows for users on a budget who don't need strong GPU performance - or able to purchase eGPU of their choice if required.
Dropping to a 45w CPU allows Apple to keep the existing case and PSU and keep the Colo guys happy while allowing the use of an i9 H SKU. Comet Lake is all about the multicore benchmarking thanks to the return of hyper threading.
iMacs are on a two-year update cycle and are less than a year in from the last update. I would expect an update sometime next year, depending on Intel release timing, with then-current 65/95W CPUs.
re: the mini, it’s obviously aimed at pros based on website product pages and with the discontinuation of HDD and Fusion SKUs. But the 2014 8GB/128GB model was $749 so the $50 bump for 2018 is really a price drop if inflation is taken into account. Pricing of iPad is not relevant to Mac mini, or any Mac for that matter.
Like iMac, the mini is not updated yearly but I have no doubt it’ll be upgraded this year with Comet Lake S. (There’s no reason to use 45W H-series.) Depending on availability from Intel, it could be as early as July or as late as October. Hopefully 256GB storage for the entry level model.
The iMac Pro update will probably be March or June, March is somewhat more likely imo but maybe they’ll do it at WWDC. Price cuts at the higher core counts.
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Comet Lake S may be available as soon as Q3 this year making it a 18 month upgrade cycle in October - or a 24 month upgrade cycle if Apple see fit to delay until March 2021 if they are waiting on graphics. Apple may also be waiting on AMD to release decent Navi GPU drivers or even RDNA2 based GPUs either late this year or early next year. They may even be looking at an Intel Xe discrete graphics solution.
I don't see anything wrong with offering some variant of the current 5300/5500/5600/5700 AMD GPUs.
The 10 core Comet Lake S supposedly has a 125W TDP for the unlocked K range topper (to match the current top SKU in the 2019 iMac), and a higher ceiling under load.
This would force an update in form factor and/or cooling for the iMac but the current Mac mini has no such luxury. Apple would have to either not offer that part in the mini or redesign the mini and make it a 'Cube' to cope with extra cooling.
And let's not forget that Intel might not be offering a BGA version of their Comet Lake S CPUs. If this is important to Apple they may go with Comet Lake H and compensate by beefing up the GPUs for the iMacs while going all-SSD across the board in their redesign.
And another point for using Comet Lake H is not to overly compete too hard with a redesigned iMac Pro. They can make this work by going for a 'quieter' experience with the non-Pro iMac and scaling the CPU to the Mini.
iMac Pro is long overdue an update - the Xeon CPUs it would use run hotter than the existing generation though. Good time for a redesign, especially if it allows access back to the RAM slots.
Reckon you are right that the "pro" users (and wannabes) are where the 2018 Mac Mini fits in the market. As a group, probably more vociferous than Joe and Jill Consumer, who were pretty much left out in the cold by the update.
I was anticipating replacing my 2009 Mac Mini with one, but with less on-board storage and more power than I needed, at a price beyond my budget, it was not for me.
Let's hope you are right about the update, but I hope the range includes models with more consumer relevant specs at a more consumer friendly price.
Albeit of little immediate interest to me at present. Now in a somewhat itinerant phase of my life, for now I am using a MacBook Air. However, I hope the time when I can settle down again, and set up a Mac Mini on a desk, comes sooner rather than later.
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Comet Lake S could be released next month or April according to the latest rumors. But Intel increasing the wattage to try to show a bigger improvement over ninth gen isn’t a game Apple is going to play on iMac (or mini).
Anyway there are 65W versions of the 10C/20T but it’s rumored the clock is as low as 2.5GHz. If that is the case, l think Apple will skip the 10-core and uses 4/6/8 instead of 6/8/10 in the mini.
I’m pretty sure Intel will make 65W BGA parts, Apple wouldn’t have used them in 2018 if they wouldn’t be able to get updated parts this year. October would be a likely time for a mini update. Apple won’t be using 95/125W parts so no reason to redesign.
And Apple isn’t worried about a 65W Mini cannibalizing demand for a 140/165W iMac Pro Xeon workstation. They’ll gladly sell you either, but they serve two largely non-overlapping markets.
In iMac, Apple will almost certainly continue to use the 95W parts at the high end rather than move to the new 125W chips. There is a 95W 10/20 part that Apple could use assuming they move up from the current 8-core part. March 2021 for an iMac update wouldn’t surprise me but it could be sooner, who knows.
iMac Pro isn’t long overdue for an update, the CPUs were just released 4Q19 and may not even be shipping in quantity yet. Is anyone shipping a W-2200 series system yet? Apple may downclock a bit or maybe increase the cooling capacity, hard to say. I wouldn’t necessarily expect the RAM slots to move to the other side of the logic board, but that would be good.
In case anyone is also in the dark about potential future Intel CPUs that might make it into the mini:
wccftech.com
![1582494946966.png]( "1582494946966.png")
Intel 10th Gen Desktop CPU Lineup Full Specifications Confirmed - Core i9-10900K 10 Core Flagship With Up To 5.3 GHz Velocity Boost
Intel's entire 10th Gen desktop family, codenamed Comet Lake-S has leaked, detailing the various SKUs that will be featured in the 2020 line.
wccftech.com
Mobile i5s have long had hyper threading. Even i3s did a long time ago. In some of the early dual core iMacs.
[automerge]1582498266[/automerge]
What is good about that CPUs list (if accurate), is that there a load of 65W CPUs suitable for the Mac mini, ranging from 6 cores similar to the current i7 model, all the way up to 8 core and 10 core models.
the issue will be that the current mini cooling solution isn't really good enough for the amount of heat these CPUs generate when on turbo though. 65W TDP really means around 100W of cooling needed to main max turbo speeds.
So why does it say this then on the Mac mini specs.....
‘The standard 3.0GHz 6-core Intel Core i5 processor has 9MB of shared L3 cache and features Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.1GHz. The 3.2GHz 6-core Intel Core i7 processor has 12MB of shared L3 cache, Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.6GHz and Hyper-Threading technology.’
edit: just had a google, and I see the ’very low’ clock speeds i.e. 1.6ghz etc have ht......
, but at this speed you would need it.
‘The standard 3.0GHz 6-core Intel Core i5 processor has 9MB of shared L3 cache and features Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.1GHz. The 3.2GHz 6-core Intel Core i7 processor has 12MB of shared L3 cache, Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.6GHz and Hyper-Threading technology.’
edit: just had a google, and I see the ’very low’ clock speeds i.e. 1.6ghz etc have ht......
, but at this speed you would need it.
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Interesting to note that the F suffix Comet Lake CPUs - consisting of CPUs with deactivated GPU - feature heavily in combination with the unlocked K suffix. Coffee Lake Refresh F suffix CPUs have a significant discount over the ones with working HD630 graphics.
Initially it seemed as though Intel were trying to make some money from CPUs that had failed GPU components but they seem to have proved popular. Unlocking the multiplier too would make them very interesting for gamers with no interest in onboard GPU.
But would Apple have interest in a CPU range that they traditionally haven't bothered with? The K series which Apple generally use for base clock speed without tapping into the overclocking?
Let's also point out that Apple's T2 CPU replaces the Quicksync feature that's used for encoding jobs in video rendering and AirPlay so in theory the iMac range - which all come with GPUs (let's ignore the non retina 21.5" one) - could get a KF CPU.
The Pro mode mentioned in recent Betas could therefore do more than just adjust a fan curve - could it allow proper overclocking in a suitably equipped iMac?
This all sounds completely irrelevant to the Mac mini of course, which NEEDS the onboard GPU. But what if the next Mini really was going to be a Cube with discrete graphics because the CPU has no onboard graphics and a cooling system that is overengineered towards keeping things quiet?
Like the iMac Pro 2017 - which may be using lower quality Xeons at lower clock speeds - could the next iMacs be coming with cheaper Intel SKUs that have a deactivated iGPU - and using a dGPU to drive the screen.
i7 Coffee Lake i7-8700 has hyperthreading where i5 doesn't. Ironically, Coffee Lake Refresh i7-9700 was 8 cores, 8 threads but apparently no BGA version that would have interested Apple.
Thanks to the threat of AMD Ryzen, Intel have brought back hyper threading on just about all SKUs for Comet Lake. The chart above appears to show that the i7-10700 keeps the 8 cores but brings back hyperthreading for a total of 16 threads. The TDP remains 65w but the base clock speed appears to have gone down to 2.9GHz where the i7-8700 was 3.2Ghz for 6 cores in the current Mac mini.
Of course, the KF CPUs come with cooking 125W TDP but there are obviously still regular F variants that Apple could use for the iMac which is coming with a discrete GPU anyway.
Why not see if the mini could really get people sitting up by introducing a version with dGPU?
Initially it seemed as though Intel were trying to make some money from CPUs that had failed GPU components but they seem to have proved popular. Unlocking the multiplier too would make them very interesting for gamers with no interest in onboard GPU.
But would Apple have interest in a CPU range that they traditionally haven't bothered with? The K series which Apple generally use for base clock speed without tapping into the overclocking?
Let's also point out that Apple's T2 CPU replaces the Quicksync feature that's used for encoding jobs in video rendering and AirPlay so in theory the iMac range - which all come with GPUs (let's ignore the non retina 21.5" one) - could get a KF CPU.
The Pro mode mentioned in recent Betas could therefore do more than just adjust a fan curve - could it allow proper overclocking in a suitably equipped iMac?
This all sounds completely irrelevant to the Mac mini of course, which NEEDS the onboard GPU. But what if the next Mini really was going to be a Cube with discrete graphics because the CPU has no onboard graphics and a cooling system that is overengineered towards keeping things quiet?
Like the iMac Pro 2017 - which may be using lower quality Xeons at lower clock speeds - could the next iMacs be coming with cheaper Intel SKUs that have a deactivated iGPU - and using a dGPU to drive the screen.
i7 Coffee Lake i7-8700 has hyperthreading where i5 doesn't. Ironically, Coffee Lake Refresh i7-9700 was 8 cores, 8 threads but apparently no BGA version that would have interested Apple.
Thanks to the threat of AMD Ryzen, Intel have brought back hyper threading on just about all SKUs for Comet Lake. The chart above appears to show that the i7-10700 keeps the 8 cores but brings back hyperthreading for a total of 16 threads. The TDP remains 65w but the base clock speed appears to have gone down to 2.9GHz where the i7-8700 was 3.2Ghz for 6 cores in the current Mac mini.
Of course, the KF CPUs come with cooking 125W TDP but there are obviously still regular F variants that Apple could use for the iMac which is coming with a discrete GPU anyway.
Why not see if the mini could really get people sitting up by introducing a version with dGPU?
The current generation minis, along with the current Gen iMacs all have "desktop" CPUs, in which, currently, i5s and i3s don't have hyper threading. But i7 and i9 do.
In the past, Apple has used "mobile" CPUs in the Mac mini, identical to those in MBPros. As far as I am aware, these always had hyper threading whether i5 or i7.
The difference with the 10th gen is that all the desktop CPUs appear to have hyperthreading.
Note, the low CPU speed is just the rated value for the Low TDP. They all boost very high (And power will go way up). This is why the performance you get is going to be very dependent on the capacity of the cooling solution that the manufacturer uses.
For example, even a "25Watt" CPU could actually get very very good performance if it is paired with a cooling solution that is good for maintaining huge The huge power spikes associated with all core turbo.
TDP only specifies the the power needed for the stated all core CPU speed. Not the maximum speed possible by the CPU.
In the past, Apple has used "mobile" CPUs in the Mac mini, identical to those in MBPros. As far as I am aware, these always had hyper threading whether i5 or i7.
The difference with the 10th gen is that all the desktop CPUs appear to have hyperthreading.
Note, the low CPU speed is just the rated value for the Low TDP. They all boost very high (And power will go way up). This is why the performance you get is going to be very dependent on the capacity of the cooling solution that the manufacturer uses.
For example, even a "25Watt" CPU could actually get very very good performance if it is paired with a cooling solution that is good for maintaining huge The huge power spikes associated with all core turbo.
TDP only specifies the the power needed for the stated all core CPU speed. Not the maximum speed possible by the CPU.
So why does it say this then on the Mac mini specs.....
‘The standard 3.0GHz 6-core Intel Core i5 processor has 9MB of shared L3 cache and features Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.1GHz. The 3.2GHz 6-core Intel Core i7 processor has 12MB of shared L3 cache, Turbo Boost speeds of up to 4.6GHz and Hyper-Threading technology.’
edit: just had a google, and I see the ’very low’ clock speeds i.e. 1.6ghz etc have ht......
IF.... Apple begins putting their own A-something chips into Macs this year, I would doubt the Mac mini will get an update until the A-something chips have flooded the Mac line up.
So it might be 2021.
We're all waiting to see how the A-somethings will work with software. Will they use a "Rosetta" that slows down old programs so much that it is annoying and inconvenient? Will it be zippy and super-speedy compared to the saggy Intel releases? Will A-something be a huge let down in all ways?
Will they use DDR5 RAM?
What is going on next?
No word on the horizon.
So it might be 2021.
We're all waiting to see how the A-somethings will work with software. Will they use a "Rosetta" that slows down old programs so much that it is annoying and inconvenient? Will it be zippy and super-speedy compared to the saggy Intel releases? Will A-something be a huge let down in all ways?
Will they use DDR5 RAM?
What is going on next?
No word on the horizon.
Why is everyone so focused solely on Intel CPU‘s? Apple has been opting for AMD GPU‘s for quite some years now, so they could as well put a Ryzen into the next-gen mini.
Ax Chips would probably appear first in some kind of Mac mini Air at the size of a current AppleTV. That could bring the price down again for average customers and test the new tech there, while the Mac mini Pro (aka current gen) could stay with x86/x64, albeit (perhaps) AMD Ryzen instead of Intel.
Ax Chips would probably appear first in some kind of Mac mini Air at the size of a current AppleTV. That could bring the price down again for average customers and test the new tech there, while the Mac mini Pro (aka current gen) could stay with x86/x64, albeit (perhaps) AMD Ryzen instead of Intel.
I’d expect Apple ARM chips first in lower-wattage machines, something like a re-introduced 12” MacBook (hopefully a 14” model as well) or MacBook Air.
And if they’re really transitioning to Ax, why bother with AMD at all?
I'd love to see a 14.1" 16:10 MacBook. I've used that size on some Windows laptops and I think it's just right.
This would also somewhat mirror the iBooks, which came in 12.1" and 14.1" sizes, but they were 4:3.
I should have gotten the 2018 when it came out. Now I can’t justify purchasing it at same price when a new one may be coming up. My desktop is 6 years old and I need a smaller form factor which is not as loud.How long should I wait..
Because the transition will take (many) years and Apple will want to support the “Pro” crowd for quite some time to come. Current AMD CPU gen seems to be competitive @ a good price point. And the integrated GPU seems to be superior to Intels offering.
Apple uses AMD GPU’s for many years now and both companies know each other well. Why not go all-in (and put more pressure on Intel), at least for some product lines?
Its less of a value, certainly, but to me as a compact machine that still runs Mojave and thus 32 bit apps it’s still worth the buy today, hence why I’m prepping to get one (we’ll see if a new model makes it cheaper before I pull the trigger). The weakest component is the GPU and via eGPUs that’s not a major stumbling block.