Thoughts on Stage Manager?

[darngooddesign]

Multitasking view? App Exposé, right?

Yeah, couldn’t remembered what it was called in iPadOS

IMO, I think the App Exposé (Multitasking view) is not necessarily useful when using Stage Manager.. there’s no way to move apps around in App Exposé when SM is enabled. That’s why I brought up the idea to have that area scrollable. If anything, that’s how users multitasking in SM. When SM is disabled, App Exposé can be used to create SplitView apps.. manage SlideOver apps. But moving around apps in App Exposé is non-existent when SM is enabled.

I think Apple will move in this direction. Apple will make the left more like App-Expose as far as being able to manage Stages and see all open apps instead of just the four recent stages. In the future you wont access the swipe up App-Expose While in Stage Manager.

 

[Ludatyk]

I think Apple will move in this direction. Apple will make the left more like App-Expose as far as being able to manage Stages and see all open apps instead of just the four recent stages. In the future you wont access the swipe up App-Expose While in Stage Manager.

Now, if they make the left (recent apps area) into some type multitasking view where we can manage our stages… that would be dope.

I’m excited for what Apple does with Stage Manager (because it’s unlike what I imagined for the iPad), I like it and enjoying using it… even though there’s criticism surrounding it. Which I completely understand the criticism, but I don’t think it should take away from how useful it is.

 

[darngooddesign]

Now, if they make the left (recent apps area) into some type multitasking view where we can manage our stages… that would be dope.

I’m excited for what Apple does with Stage Manager (because it’s unlike what I imagined for the iPad), I like it and enjoying using it… even though there’s criticism surrounding it. Which I completely understand the criticism, but I don’t think it should take away from how useful it is.

I agree, and I think that’s what will happen because the current App Expose isn’t set up to manage more than two apps per Group. It doesn’t make sense to have swipe up and swipe side do similar things

 

[bcortens]

Multitasking view? App Exposé, right?

IMO, I think the App Exposé (Multitasking view) is not necessarily useful when using Stage Manager.. there’s no way to move apps around in App Exposé when SM is enabled. That’s why I brought up the idea to have that area scrollable. If anything, that’s how users multitasking in SM.

When SM is disabled, App Exposé can be used to create SplitView apps.. manage SlideOver apps. But moving around apps in App Exposé is non-existent when SM is enabled.

These two changes:

1. Group apps by stage in App Exposé
2. Allow drag and drop between stages in App Exposé

Are the most straightforward and easy to understand ways to make stage manager better since it helps people using it know where their windows are, and move them from place to place.

Because it is non-existent now doesn't mean they couldn't make these two changes to fix it.


Your idea, as @darngooddesign mentions above, does the exact same thing but does so in a smaller area making it harder to drag individual app windows without moving into a stage.


We can see how App Exposé got better when they added the ability to create SplitView groups and integrated Slide-Over management. These aren't features that App Exposé always had, it wasn't until iPadOS 15 that we gained the ability to move apps around within App Exposé.

 

[bcortens]

Now, if they make the left (recent apps area) into some type multitasking view where we can manage our stages… that would be dope.

I’m excited for what Apple does with Stage Manager (because it’s unlike what I imagined for the iPad), I like it and enjoying using it… even though there’s criticism surrounding it. Which I completely understand the criticism, but I don’t think it should take away from how useful it is.

Why would just this be dope?
Its just a smaller area to do what would be better in a larger space...
Using the small left area would be harder with touch because the touch targets for individual apps within a stage are hard to grab, using App Exposé for this makes far more sense because it gives much larger targets for both touch to start dragging and for accurate placement.

 

[darngooddesign]

Why would just this be dope?
Its just a smaller area to do what would be better in a larger space...
Using the small left area would be harder with touch because the touch targets for individual apps within a stage are hard to grab, using App Exposé for this makes far more sense because it gives much larger targets for both touch to start dragging and for accurate placement.

Let’s assume that StageManager-AppExpose is separate from SplitScreen-AppExpose; which it needs to be since SplitScreen-AppExpose only manages two apps per group. Dragging longer/further from the left side could access StageManager-AppExpose in the same way that dragging longer/further from the bottom accesses SplitScreen-AppExpose instead of going to the HomeScreen. StageManager-AppExpose would have larger Stages than the RecentStages so manipulating the apps within them is easier. Or maybe both SplitScreen-AppExpose and StageManager-AppExpose are both access from the same bottom-gesture, but if you have SM turned on you only access StageManager-AppExpose, otherwise you get SplitScreen-AppExpose.

 

[bcortens]

Let’s assume that Stage Manager App Expose is separate from Split-Screen App Expose; which it needs to be since regular AE only manages two apps per group. Dragging longer/further from the left side could access SM-AE in the same way that dragging longer/further from the bottom accesses AE instead of going to the Home Screen. SM-AE would have larger Stages so manipulating the apps within them is easier.

That does seem like a reasonable way to do it.
In Stage Manager there is a kind of overview-view already - it just doesn't really have much use because it doesn't consistently show apps grouped by stage. Sometimes it does, sometimes it just shows a stack of windows that you can only get to the top 3 of. I was thinking they could improve this since it doesn't serve much function currently. I would keep split-view/slide-over separate from stage manager since they have such different expectations.

 

[Ludatyk]

Why would just this be dope?
Its just a smaller area to do what would be better in a larger space...
Using the small left area would be harder with touch because the touch targets for individual apps within a stage are hard to grab, using App Exposé for this makes far more sense because it gives much larger targets for both touch to start dragging and for accurate placement.

What I'm suggesting is a tweak to the recent app area... where once a user interacts, it expands to give more space to manage the area.

I rather Apple remove App Exposé when Stage Manager is enabled... because prior to Stage Manager users were able to move windows around in App Exposé. And I know they can easily make it possible to move windows around while Stage Manager is enabled.

But Apple implemented this recent app area where it's simple to multitask from (although you think the touch targets are hard to grab) and I think it needs to be tweaked. Give users more functionality within that area.. expanding it when a user interacts could be helpful when trying to grab apps from group stages.

And I agree with you, grabbing apps from group stages shouldn't be hard... it needs to be tweaked. Perhaps changing the group stages visually where touch targets won't be so hard to grab. But I don't agree that it should be within App Exposé when multitasking is much quicker from the recent app area.

Because why should I swipe up to evoke App Exposé to access group stages, when there are easily accessible from the recent app area.

 

[bcortens]

What I'm suggesting is a tweak to the recent app area... where once a user interacts, it expands to give more space to manage the area.

I rather Apple remove App Exposé when Stage Manager is enabled... because prior to Stage Manager users were able to move windows around in App Exposé. And I know they can easily make it possible to move windows around while Stage Manager is enabled.

But Apple implemented this recent app area where it's simple to multitask from (although you think the touch targets are hard to grab) and I think it needs to be tweaked. Give users more functionality within that area.. expanding it when a user interacts could be helpful when trying to grab apps from group stages.

And I agree with you, grabbing apps from group stages shouldn't be hard... it needs to be tweaked. Perhaps changing the group stages visually where touch targets won't be so hard to grab. But I don't agree that it should be within App Exposé when multitasking is much quicker from the recent app area.

Because why should I swipe up to evoke App Exposé to access group stages, when there are easily accessible from the recent app area.

It's not simple to multitask from - it doesn't behave consistently with respect to dragging individual windows in and out of those little mini-stage things.
- Sometimes you can drag a window in or out, sometimes you cant
- Sometimes you can drag a window to another stage from the current stage, sometimes you can't
It also does not let me move things between stages directly - only between the current stage and a recent stage.

The recent apps area isn't faster though, the gesture takes just as long to invoke as the App Exposé switcher. The animation time is almost the same as well.

I don't keep recent apps visible at all times because it takes up space I would rather have for the space, I also hide the dock. I suppose on an external display you can use the recent apps area without losing significant space but when holding my iPad I don't want it using up screen space.

 

[Ludatyk]

It's not simple to multitask from - it doesn't behave consistently with respect to dragging individual windows in and out of those little mini-stage things.
- Sometimes you can drag a window in or out, sometimes you cant
- Sometimes you can drag a window to another stage from the current stage, sometimes you can't
It also does not let me move things between stages directly - only between the current stage and a recent stage.

The recent apps area isn't faster though, the gesture takes just as long to invoke as the App Exposé switcher. The animation time is almost the same as well.

I don't keep recent apps visible at all times because it takes up space I would rather have for the space, I also hide the dock. I suppose on an external display you can use the recent apps area without losing significant space but when holding my iPad I don't want it using up screen space.

Lol, not simple? You literally have to drag an app onto the Stage... I don't see how that's difficult to do.

As I've said before, I have never had inconsistent behavior in regards to dragging windows in and out of the recent app area. Recent app area isn't fast enough for you because you don't keep it visible. Similar to you, I disabled recent app area in the past because I wanted to utilize the extra space.

But I realized it's much quicker to get to my apps and manage them better with recent app area always visible. And I like to add, you have the 11" iPad... so maybe space is limited.

 

[bcortens]

Lol, not simple? You literally have to drag an app onto the Stage... I don't see how that's difficult to do.

As I've said before, I have never had inconsistent behavior in regards to dragging windows in and out of the recent app area. Recent app area isn't fast enough for you because you don't keep it visible. Similar to you, I disabled recent app area in the past because I wanted to utilize the extra space.

But I realized it's much quicker to get to my apps and manage them better with recent app area always visible. And I like to add, you have the 11" iPad... so maybe space is limited.

It really isn't that easy...
If you have four apps in a stage, on an 11" iPad Pro with more space enabled, it isn't as easy as it should be to grab the appropriate window. If you grab the wrong window it is very easy to accidentally put it in a new stage if you accidentally let go in the wrong spot.

Drag window into a stage then try and drag it back into the stage you grabbed it from... cannot be done...

It isn't fast for me, sure, but it won't be fast for anyone who doesn't keep it visible. A perfectly reasonable setting to have enabled, hence a perfectly reasonable complaint. The way you use it isn't the one true use case and as such I have a right to complain about compromises in other use cases (that are supported).

In the video below you can see that I try to drag a window out, see that it is the wrong one, try and put it back and it fails.

 

[hovscorpion12]

You clearly dragged the notes window back to the expose. It needs to be dragged to the screen.

 

[bcortens]

You clearly dragged the notes window back to the expose. It needs to be dragged to the screen.

That's my point...

I was using an example where I grabbed the wrong window. I didn't want that window... so this mistake breaks the grouping because it can't be put back if you accidentally want to abort the drag.

 

[Ludatyk]

That's my point...

I was using an example where I grabbed the wrong window. I didn't want that window... so this mistake breaks the grouping because it can't be put back if you accidentally want to abort the drag.

So, in that video… which app did you intend to grab?

In cases like that.. you tap the entire group to bring that onto stage and you have to manage it that way. Attempting to bring a single app from the recent app area leads to a potential mistake.

For instance, from your video.. you might want to bring out the calendar app from the group. You tap the entire group to bring that onto stage and then minimize the calendar app to remove it from the group. It’s more so adapting to how it works now… instead of forcing it to how you think it should function.

And I know this method might seem tedious, but until there’s more tweaks to the recent app area… I find this to be the best solution. You might think “hey, why visually show groups of apps if I can’t grab one to bring them onto stage”… I think it’s only meant to show what you have grouped.

 

[bcortens]

So, in that video… which app did you intend to grab?

In cases like that.. you tap the entire group to bring that onto stage and you have to manage it that way. Attempting to bring a single app from the recent app area leads to a potential mistake.

For instance, from your video.. you might want to bring out the calendar app from the group. You tap the entire group to bring that onto stage and then minimize the calendar app to remove it from the group. It’s more so adapting to how it works now… instead of forcing it to how you think it should function.

And I know this method might seem tedious, but until there’s more tweaks to the recent app area… I find this to be the best solution. You might think “hey, why visually show groups of apps if I can’t grab one to bring them onto stage”… I think it’s only meant to show what you have grouped.

This is not just tedious, this is why Stage manager is fundamentally not up to the task asked of a window manager. Moving single windows in and out of stages should be easy. The fact that it shipped in a state where it is not is a perfectly reasonable critique.

If it's only meant to show the groups then, functionally, it's an app switcher, and my critique still stands. Stage manager features a worse level of window management than the older App Exposé system. I use Stage Manager, it is great for small, isolated, use cases. But it has major problems as a window manager and it needs both refinement and (particularly in the case of the overview that replaced App Exposé) large reworks to be something that is left on full time.

 

[Ludatyk]

This is not just tedious, this is why Stage manager is fundamentally not up to the task asked of a window manager. Moving single windows in and out of stages should be easy. The fact that it shipped in a state where it is not is a perfectly reasonable critique.

It is easy to move group of windows in and out of stages, but not from the recent app area. This is 1st year of Stage Manager and you expect it to be perfect out of the gate… seriously? When SplitScreen was first announced back in iOS 9… it didn’t work as it does now. It had a an app switcher users had to scroll to access apps.

If it's only meant to show the groups then, functionally, it's an app switcher, and my critique still stands. Stage manager features a worse level of window management than the older App Exposé system. I use Stage Manager, it is great for small, isolated, use cases. But it has major problems as a window manager and it needs both refinement and (particularly in the case of the overview that replaced App Exposé) large reworks to be something that is left on full time.

You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. I don’t believe it’s as worse as you claim it to be… if you care to use it sparingly, great! I keep it on and have no major problems with it.. does it need refinements? absolutely! It’s not perfect… but I‘m confident that Apple will continue to improve upon it.

 

[darngooddesign]

This is not just tedious, this is why Stage manager is fundamentally not up to the task asked of a window manager. Moving single windows in and out of stages should be easy. The fact that it shipped in a state where it is not is a perfectly reasonable critique.

Split-screen did not ship in its final shape. It took until iPadOS15 to remove the annoyance of adding an app which wasn’t in the dock. So why are people getting salty over Stage Manager not being in its final shape less than one year from launch?

If it's only meant to show the groups then, functionally, it's an app switcher, and my critique still stands. Stage manager features a worse level of window management than the older App Exposé system. I use Stage Manager, it is great for small, isolated, use cases. But it has major problems as a window manager and it needs both refinement and (particularly in the case of the overview that replaced App Exposé) large reworks to be something that is left on full time.

It’s not just an app switcher since you can add apps to your current Stage from the left side. This is just a bug which probably needs to be fixed; and there will probably be a StageManager version of App Expose with larger Stages to manipulate. SM is less than a year old, so at the very least lets wait for WWDC to see how 17’s SM has changed.

I have the Recent Stages hidden and Dock visible by default. I never pull from the left side; instead, I either pull from the Dock or App Library in the Dock, or I use ”Add Another Window” which also gives me access to everything. Both of those methods work a lot like iPadOS 15+’s SplitScreen.

 

[darngooddesign]

FWIW, you can use AppExpose to manage Stages. In AppExpose, drag an app onto any app group and after a couple of seconds that Stage will come to the foreground, then position the App window how you want it or let go and the app goes away. And while you can’t move an app directly from one stage to another in AppExpose, what you can do is pull that app from the Dock/AppLibrary/Spotlight and it will move to the new Stage.

A little clunky but it works for me since I’m not editing Stages all the time, but I’m sure it will be refined.

 

[bcortens]

Split-screen did not ship in its final shape. It took until iPadOS15 to remove the annoyance of adding an app which wasn’t in the dock. So why are people getting salty over Stage Manager not being in its final shape less than one year from launch?

I don't actually expect it to be perfect, however, what I take issue with is the idea that it is 'good enough' right now. The title of this thread is 'thoughts on stage manager' the whole point of the thread is to critique or praise its current state.

Thus, I critique it... you can of course respond that it is a v1 and still needs refinement, that doesn't actually matter and is a red herring... The whole point of the discussion is to praise what it does well and critique what it does poorly... that's the point...

It’s not just an app switcher since you can add apps to your current Stage from the left side. This is just a bug which probably needs to be fixed; and there will probably be a StageManager version of App Expose with larger Stages to manipulate. SM is less than a year old, so at the very least lets wait for WWDC to see how 17’s SM has changed.

I am hoping they get some of this fixed at WWDC, my list of suggested improvements is somewhere on these forums and is rather long.

I have the Recent Stages hidden and Dock visible by default. I never pull from the left side; instead, I either pull from the Dock or App Library in the Dock, or I use ”Add Another Window” which also gives me access to everything. Both of those methods work a lot like iPadOS 15+’s SplitScreen.

I mostly use Stage Manager in a 2 app configuration, I toggle out of stage manager to rearrange my groups because the App Exposé feature is just so much better at visualizing the change.

You can use AppExpose to manage Stages. In AppExpose, drag an app onto any Stage and after a couple of seconds that Stage will come to the foreground at which point you position the App window how you want it, or let go and the app goes away. A little clunky, works for me since I’m not editing Stages all the time, but I’m sure it will be refined.

App Exposé with stage manager turned on doesn't work for me very well because I like to keep a bunch of fullscreen safari windows around, as I've posted elsewhere, this can lead to a 7 item deep stack of windows that is hard to deal with in the App Exposé version of stage manager.
Also, this doesn't always work, sometimes it just disappears without bringing in the window (bug but still annoying).

The most reliable way to bring a window into a stage (from my experience) is to long press on an app icon, "show all windows", and then drag it in that way.


Right now I mostly work around Stage Manager's limitations (as it appears you do as well), I hope they improve these things with time. Mostly what I object to in this thread is people trying downplay my critiques as not real design issues or somehow being just fine ways of doing things, or I'm just not using it right.

 

[Ludatyk]

Right now I mostly work around Stage Manager's limitations (as it appears you do as well), I hope they improve these things with time. Mostly what I object to in this thread is people trying downplay my critiques as not real design issues or somehow being just fine ways of doing things, or I'm just not using it right.

I'm not downplaying your criticisms... because I acknowledge Stage Manager needs refinements, but I'm only pointing out how useful it is now and you seem to reject that.

You took the approach it needs to be scrapped completely... you even posted a complete redesign. @darngooddesign made a good suggesting of "Add Another Window," which is something I never considered.. I tend to drag windows from the recent app area.

 

[bcortens]

I'm not downplaying your criticisms... because I acknowledge Stage Manager needs refinements, but I'm only pointing out how useful it is now and you seem to reject that.

You took the approach it needs to be scrapped completely... you even posted a complete redesign. @darngooddesign made a good suggesting of "Add Another Window," which is something I never considered.. I tend to drag windows from the recent app area.

I actually have come around on keeping it around, it does have some uses and while it does have bugs and major design flaws I think it can be fixed with refinements.
I don't know if it was in this thread but if it wasn't in here then I apologize.

In case I haven't said it here, I do think it is useful and I do use it, I just think it has major problems that limit my ability to use it full time.

 

[darngooddesign]

You took the approach it needs to be scrapped completely... you even posted a complete redesign. @darngooddesign made a good suggesting of "Add Another Window," which is something I never considered.. I tend to drag windows from the recent app area.

The ‘Add Another Window’ was also how Split-Screen finally worked in iPadOS15. You can also pull apps from the Dock, AppLbrary which I keep in the Dock, Homescreen, and even a Spotlight Search.

 

[darngooddesign]

I don't actually expect it to be perfect, however, what I take issue with is the idea that it is 'good enough' right now. The title of this thread is 'thoughts on stage manager' the whole point of the thread is to critique or praise its current state.

Thus, I critique it... you can of course respond that it is a v1 and still needs refinement, that doesn't actually matter and is a red herring... The whole point of the discussion is to praise what it does well and critique what it does poorly... that's the point...



I am hoping they get some of this fixed at WWDC, my list of suggested improvements is somewhere on these forums and is rather long.


I mostly use Stage Manager in a 2 app configuration, I toggle out of stage manager to rearrange my groups because the App Exposé feature is just so much better at visualizing the change.


App Exposé with stage manager turned on doesn't work for me very well because I like to keep a bunch of fullscreen safari windows around, as I've posted elsewhere, this can lead to a 7 item deep stack of windows that is hard to deal with in the App Exposé version of stage manager.
Also, this doesn't always work, sometimes it just disappears without bringing in the window (bug but still annoying).

The most reliable way to bring a window into a stage (from my experience) is to long press on an app icon, "show all windows", and then drag it in that way.


Right now I mostly work around Stage Manager's limitations (as it appears you do as well), I hope they improve these things with time. Mostly what I object to in this thread is people trying downplay my critiques as not real design issues or somehow being just fine ways of doing things, or I'm just not using it right.

FWIW I find your criticisms valid for your usage and I hope Apple addresses them. I find it to good enough to be useful to me. If I came across as combative I apologize.

 

[Ludatyk]

You can also pull apps from the Dock, AppLbrary which I keep in the Dock, Homescreen, and even a Spotlight Search.

Yup, I do all that. I don't have apps on my HomeScreen (mostly widgets)... most used apps are on the dock and I toggle on show recent apps in dock.

 

[bcortens]

FWIW I find your criticisms valid for your usage and I hope Apple addresses them. I find it to good enough to be useful to me. If I came across as combative I apologize.

I do too, I reread that and it seemed more aggressive than I meant it to.