Tim Cook Says Apple is 'Not Against Digital Advertising' Ahead of iOS 14.5 Launch With App Tracking Transparency

[quarkysg]

They clearly put out statement criticizing laws when they don't like it, as evidenced in the links in post 114 above. So, it's disingenuous to say that somehow when something is under the purview of a government, then Apple gets to play dead. They clearly have chosen to speak when it is risk free and have chosen the craven path when its not so free of risk. Its not much of a principled stand.

Actually, in my view, Apple being a US based organisation, have every right to critic legislation that it felt affects its operations. It is no different from any concerned US citizen voicing their views of any legislation. I don't think we see other countries' organisation having any operations in the US voicing their concerns publicly, because, frankly, it is not their business to do so. These organisations have a presence in the US solely for the purpose of making money.

Similarly, Apple has no business voicing their views to other governments in the world. They have to obey the local laws if they want to operate in any locality they think will make them money. Customer has to decide if they want to do business with Apple. If customers thinks that Apple is unethical in their business practises or that their products are made unethically, they will likely not get much or any business. Judging from what Apple has achieved, I think they are doing exceptionally well.

 

[mtneer]

Having differences makes the world go around. China manufactures what percent of the worlds goods? I’ll wager most have some goods manufactured in China. The do as I say and not as I do is amazing.

Tim is entitled to chose his words. Im glad he does what he thinks needs to be done, but it’s never enough for some.

It would be good if he actually did what he says he would do in their principle statement. Its just sad so many would just give him a pass on his misdeeds just to feel good about their favorite company.

 

[mtneer]

Actually, in my view, Apple being a US based organisation, have every right to critic legislation that it felt affects its operations. It is no different from any concerned US citizen voicing their views of any legislation. I don't think we see other countries' organisation having any operations in the US voicing their concerns publicly, because, frankly, it is not their business to do so. These organisations have a presence in the US solely for the purpose of making money.

Similarly, Apple has no business voicing their views to other governments in the world. They have to obey the local laws if they want to operate in any locality they think will make them money. Customer has to decide if they want to do business with Apple. If customers thinks that Apple is unethical in their business practises or that their products are made unethically, they will likely not get much or any business. Judging from what Apple has achieved, I think they are doing exceptionally well.

Money is not a measure of morals.... And if their principles end at the borders of the USA, then it would be good to state that clearly. The original article quotes them talking about rights around the world.

 

[planteater]

Tracking should be illegal.

And it probably would be if it weren’t for two things: 1) lawmakers are beholden to the corporations that profit, and 2) the government is a consumer of the data mining that tracking technologies produce.

 

[quarkysg]

Money is not a measure of morals.... And if their principles end at the borders of the USA, then it would be good to state that clearly. The original article quotes them talking about rights around the world.

Agree that money is not a measure of morals. In fact, in my culture, there's a saying that 'money is the root of all evil.'

Principles has no borders. But whether we should questions government has. That's all I'm saying. It is each country's citizens' responsibility to keep their government in check. Frankly, from behind a keyboard I only know what's happening around the world via a browser. And we all know that news are always narrated according to agenda. The only way to know what's actually going on anywhere, is to be there, and analyse what we get from news versus what we see.

So in this context, its about privacy. And Apple's actions thus far to me is consistent with the products they are releasing world wide.

 

[mtneer]

Agree that money is not a measure of morals. In fact, in my culture, there's a saying that 'money is the root of all evil.'

Principles has no borders. But whether we should questions government has. That's all I'm saying. It is each country's citizens' responsibility to keep their government in check. Frankly, from behind a keyboard I only know what's happening around the world via a browser. And we all know that news are always narrated according to agenda. The only way to know what's actually going on anywhere, is to be there, and analyse what we get from news versus what we see.

So in this context, its about privacy. And Apple's actions thus far to me is consistent with the products they are releasing world wide.

How is turning over data to an authoritarian government (data which may have been linked to dissidents and other oppressed innocents) be "consistent" with a stand on privacy or even basic human dignity? They knew the consequences and yet coldheartedly went ahead with it anyways.

 

[planteater]

I have allowed Google to "mine" me with my permission, mostly.
I have not allowed Face Book to do the same.

I have a Google account and routinely look at what they are gathering.
I do not have a Face Book account and have no idea what they have collected on me.

To me that is the biggest difference.

Unless to go to great lengths to block Google and it’s dozens of tentacles, almost everything you do on the internet is tracked and aggregated. They store more info than what they show, like everything you’ve done on the internet for years. They don’t delete it, ever. They do use it to build profiles on every aspect of your being. Don’t kid yourself about G. They are 10 times worse than FB.

 

[quarkysg]

How is turning over data to an authoritarian government (data which may have been linked to dissidents and other oppressed innocents) be "consistent" with a stand on privacy or even basic human dignity? They knew the consequences and yet coldheartedly went ahead with it anyways.

I suppose this authoritarian government you are referring to is China? Well, from what I know, it is a local legal requirement in China for tech. companies to locate their data center in China if they are serving the Chinese market. We don't know whether the Chinese government is directly having access to those data (which I think not.) Whether you, me, Apple or anyone else agree to this requirement is immaterial. Now if the Chinese government ask for data, Apple has to supply, much like if the US FBI ask Apple to supply data from it's data center located in the US, or for that matter, located anywhere in the world.

Now if the Chinese government asked Apple to crack an iPhone, they will get the same answer the US FBI got from Apple. They can't do it because the iPhone is designed with security and privacy in mind.

Now back to the authoritarian government that is China. You can have your views and I respect that. But that may not be the views of the Chinese citizen. If you compare the lives of the Chinese people now and 30 years ago, it is like night and day. And in this respect, I have to say that the Chinese government has done tremendous work to lift it's citizen out of poverty. Compared to India (I apologise to Indian folks for dragging your country into this discussion), I think China have achieved a miracle. At the end of the day, it is up to the Chinese people to fight for their future. Outsiders have no business meddling in their domestics affairs.

If you ask me, the Chinese already have their plates full keeping their vast country in running order and staying ahead. They have no time to engage in anything else. I think this puts fears in a lot of countries.

 

[Td1970]

So basically all companies are hypocritical, because ignoring or not commenting doesn't make it right and not hypocritical. Kudos to Apple for having the guts to do what they think is right.

No. Good spin though

 

[I7guy]

It would be good if he actually did what he says he would do in their principle statement. Its just sad so many would just give him a pass on his misdeeds just to feel good about their favorite company.

It's called the "never enough" syndrome as it applies to Apple.
- Apple gave $10M to this cause.
- They're rich, they should have given 5 times the amount to twice the causes.

- Apple denounced the Georgia voting legistlation
- But did they discuss the entirety of the rest of the world's issues on human rights?

It runs rampant on this site and this is more of the same.

How is turning over data to an authoritarian government (data which may have been linked to dissidents and other oppressed innocents) be "consistent" with a stand on privacy or even basic human dignity? They knew the consequences and yet coldheartedly went ahead with it anyways.

So you are suggesting Apple doesn't follow local regulations and the laws of local government? As I said above, this is the "do as I say and not as I do crowd".

No. Good spin though

All I did was reply to a disingenuous post.

All of this because:

Cook reiterated Apple's longstanding belief that privacy is a "fundamental human right" and expressed his belief that privacy regulations around the world "will eventually catch up" with policies like App Tracking Transparency.

Apple should have their critics, but criticism should be helpful. None of this is "helpful", but I suppose it doesn't matter because Apple (thankfully) does what it thinks needs to be done.

 

[siddavis]

It's called the "never enough" syndrome as it applies to Apple.
- Apple gave $10M to this cause.
- They're rich, they should have given 5 times the amount to twice the causes.

- Apple denounced the Georgia voting legistlation
- But did they discuss the entirety of the rest of the world's issues on human rights?

It runs rampant on this site and this is more of the same.

So you are suggesting Apple doesn't follow local regulations and the laws of local government? As I said above, this is the "do as I say and not as I do crowd".

All I did was reply to a disingenuous post.

All of this because:


Apple should have their critics, but criticism should be helpful. None of this is "helpful", but I suppose it doesn't matter because Apple (thankfully) does what it thinks needs to be done.

From my perspective, it isn't that they take one step and I am critical that they don't "do enough", it's that I cannot easily point to this principle of privacy being applied specifically to China. Honest question, can you provide examples of Apple being critical of the Chinese government and it's policies relative to the privacy (human rights) of their people? From my seat, it simply doesn't exist.

For some reason, everyone is OK that an oppressive communist regime is treated with kid gloves by the world's power brokers.

 

[dk001]

Unless to go to great lengths to block Google and it’s dozens of tentacles, almost everything you do on the internet is tracked and aggregated. They store more info than what they show, like everything you’ve done on the internet for years. They don’t delete it, ever. They do use it to build profiles on every aspect of your being. Don’t kid yourself about G. They are 10 times worse than FB.

I think FB is far worse. Imagine FB as Google ...

For Google they primarily build two aspects: ad profile and internet use profile. I expect this as I use their goods and services.
Facebook on the other hand, which I do not use, nor any of their services, attempts to build a complete profile on me.

From Google I would like to see more transparency and allow me more control on what they collect.
Facebook is collecting info on me which I have not agreed to as for profit activity. Stalking me basically. Facebook need a serious reining in.

 

[siddavis]

I suppose this authoritarian government you are referring to is China? Well, from what I know, it is a local legal requirement in China for tech. companies to locate their data center in China if they are serving the Chinese market. We don't know whether the Chinese government is directly having access to those data (which I think not.) Whether you, me, Apple or anyone else agree to this requirement is immaterial. Now if the Chinese government ask for data, Apple has to supply, much like if the US FBI ask Apple to supply data from it's data center located in the US, or for that matter, located anywhere in the world.

Now if the Chinese government asked Apple to crack an iPhone, they will get the same answer the US FBI got from Apple. They can't do it because the iPhone is designed with security and privacy in mind.

Now back to the authoritarian government that is China. You can have your views and I respect that. But that may not be the views of the Chinese citizen. If you compare the lives of the Chinese people now and 30 years ago, it is like night and day. And in this respect, I have to say that the Chinese government has done tremendous work to lift it's citizen out of poverty. Compared to India (I apologise to Indian folks for dragging your country into this discussion), I think China have achieved a miracle. At the end of the day, it is up to the Chinese people to fight for their future. Outsiders have no business meddling in their domestics affairs.

If you ask me, the Chinese already have their plates full keeping their vast country in running order and staying ahead. They have no time to engage in anything else. I think this puts fears in a lot of countries.

It is not a principle if you bend and shape it based on authority or risk. Based on this, the statement should read: privacy is a "government applied privilege".

"At the end of the day, it is up to the Chinese people to fight for their future." Uighurs wish it were that easy. I'm glad the French didn't think the same during the Revolutionary War. I'm glad the world didn't think the same about Western Europe during the 1930's-40's. China has a freaking social credit system and re-education camps!

 

[mtneer]

Apple should have their critics, but criticism should be helpful. None of this is "helpful", but I suppose it doesn't matter because Apple (thankfully) does what it thinks needs to be done.

Oh so now I7guy is certifying what criticism is valid and what's not? There is no defense of what Apple's conduct and all this deflection and obfuscation. They should be held accountable and the public should be made aware, no matter how much its boosters try to run interference.

 

[mtneer]

I suppose this authoritarian government you are referring to is China? Well, from what I know, it is a local legal requirement in China for tech. companies to locate their data center in China if they are serving the Chinese market. We don't know whether the Chinese government is directly having access to those data (which I think not.) Whether you, me, Apple or anyone else agree to this requirement is immaterial. Now if the Chinese government ask for data, Apple has to supply, much like if the US FBI ask Apple to supply data from it's data center located in the US, or for that matter, located anywhere in the world.

Now if the Chinese government asked Apple to crack an iPhone, they will get the same answer the US FBI got from Apple. They can't do it because the iPhone is designed with security and privacy in mind.

Now back to the authoritarian government that is China. You can have your views and I respect that. But that may not be the views of the Chinese citizen. If you compare the lives of the Chinese people now and 30 years ago, it is like night and day. And in this respect, I have to say that the Chinese government has done tremendous work to lift it's citizen out of poverty. Compared to India (I apologise to Indian folks for dragging your country into this discussion), I think China have achieved a miracle. At the end of the day, it is up to the Chinese people to fight for their future. Outsiders have no business meddling in their domestics affairs.

If you ask me, the Chinese already have their plates full keeping their vast country in running order and staying ahead. They have no time to engage in anything else. I think this puts fears in a lot of countries.

All the propaganda about poverty alleviation aside, as was stated earlier - money is not a measure of morals. This topic is about what Apple should be doing to stand up to its own self-proclaimed moral high ground, which they have failed to do so. Apple should be soundly condemned for their silence and complicity.

 

[I7guy]

Oh so now I7guy is certifying what criticism is valid and what's not? There is no defense of what Apple's conduct and all this deflection and obfuscation. They should be held accountable and the public should be made aware, no matter how much its boosters try to run interference.

I don’t agree with your criticism. It falls under the “apple can never do enough” criticism umbrella. If they gave $1M they should have given $2M. If they talked about Georgia voting laws, they should have talked about China, etc.

There is nothing to hold them accountable for. Through posting on MR one is welcome to make the world at large (through the Interwebs) aware of certain opinions, but that runs every which way.

Ape can pick and choose its battles, it’s not obligated to take in the world and furthermore as I see it; this is a do as I say and not as I do conversation.

 

[I7guy]

From my perspective, it isn't that they take one step and I am critical that they don't "do enough", it's that I cannot easily point to this principle of privacy being applied specifically to China. Honest question, can you provide examples of Apple being critical of the Chinese government and it's policies relative to the privacy (human rights) of their people? From my seat, it simply doesn't exist.

For some reason, everyone is OK that an oppressive communist regime is treated with kid gloves by the world's power brokers.

The goal of privacy in my opinion was to protect the user data from being misused by private companies. Not to protect the individual from valid requests for access for private information.

I also don’t see Apple criticising governments. Maybe discussing certain policies and events (within the US), but can you point to any wholesale criticism of any governments anywhere?

 

[mtneer]

I don’t agree with your criticism. It falls under the “apple can never do enough” criticism umbrella. If they gave $1M they should have given $2M. If they talked about Georgia voting laws, they should have talked about China, etc.

There is nothing to hold them accountable for. Through posting on MR one is welcome to make the world at large (through the Interwebs) aware of certain opinions, but that runs every which way.

Ape can pick and choose its battles, it’s not obligated to take in the world and furthermore as I see it; this is a do as I say and not as I do conversation.

The entity here indulging in "do as I say and not as I do" is Apple. Lots of other entities have stood by their principles...

 

[I7guy]

The entity here indulging in "do as I say and not as I do" is Apple. Lots of other entities have stood by their principles...

China does a majority of the world’s manufacturing. Can you prove some companies exiting Chinas production was a “principled” move and not driven by rising labor costs or tariffs. In other words, business as usual type of moves.

Apple has principles also, but they are not under any obligation to take on somebody else’s fight. And they don’t seem to criticize any government in a wholesale manner.

 

[mtneer]

China does a majority of the world’s manufacturing. Can you prove some companies exiting Chinas production was a “principled” move and not driven by rising labor costs or tariffs. In other words, business as usual type of moves.

Apple has principles also, but they are not under any obligation to take on somebody else’s fight. And they don’t seem to criticize any government in a wholesale manner.

Morality is not relative, just because others are doing or not doing something is no excuse for failing to stand by their own words. Or, they can stop blathering useless "principles" and merely be one more pustule on the face of humanity.

 

[I7guy]

Morality is not relative, just because others are doing or not doing something is no excuse for failing to stand by their own words. Or, they can stop blathering useless "principles" and merely be one more pustule on the face of humanity.

They are standing up for their own standards. In fact with the contract with Foxconn, the workers are getting paid above average wage. Apple through its manufacturing partners is actually making life better for the workers who work at Foxconn.

It’s not about morality being relative or not, it’s about the “not do enough” syndrome surrounding Apple that eats at some. Apple is under no obligation to take on every aspect of the worlds issues. They are allowed to be principled and discuss what they feel is best.

 

[siddavis]

The goal of privacy in my opinion was to protect the user data from being misused by private companies. Not to protect the individual from valid requests for access for private information.

I also don’t see Apple criticising governments. Maybe discussing certain policies and events (within the US), but can you point to any wholesale criticism of any governments anywhere?

Sure, just search the Duck Duck machine for Cook and immigration. Here's a decent example:

Apple CEO Tim Cook explains why he spoke out about immigration

Speaking at the Fortune CEO Initiative Monday, Tim Cook said CEOs should speak out when something isn't consistent with their company's values. "Think about if you don’t, then you’re in the 'appalling silence of the good people' category," he said.

www.usatoday.com

Excerpts:
...Cook told the Irish Times that the separation of children from their families at the U.S./Mexico border was "inhumane" and that Apple would be working with the government to be a "constructive voice" on the issue.
See, he's happy to criticize US policy to foreign news outlets!

Cook said CEOs should speak out when they see something that isn't consistent with their company's values. "Think about if you don’t, then you’re in the 'appalling silence of the good people' category," he said. "This is something I’ve never wanted to be a part of."

"Ultimately that is what human rights is all about," he said. "It’s about treating people with dignity and respect, at the end of the day."

So is his silence WRT China policies "appalling"?

This is the same guy that made the statement, "Did you feel the room shake?" after meeting Xi.
/vomit

 

[siddavis]

They are standing up for their own standards. In fact with the contract with Foxconn, the workers are getting paid above average wage. Apple through its manufacturing partners is actually making life better for the workers who work at Foxconn.

It’s not about morality being relative or not, it’s about the “not do enough” syndrome surrounding Apple that eats at some. Apple is under no obligation to take on every aspect of the worlds issues. They are allowed to be principled and discuss what they feel is best.

Not enough? I'd be happy if they had ANY principled stance in China. You haven't provided an example... hint, you won't find one. It's because the man is not actually principled. He's a blowhard when it is convenient and low risk.

Here are examples to the contrary:

• Turns over iCloud data to communists
• Denys VPN apps on China's app store
• Removes Hong Kong app after China state media criticism
• Removes the Taiwan flag emoji from iOS

You know the old saying that actions speak louder than words. This demonstrates that there have been numerous opportunities for just a few critical words from Tim Apple. He's perfectly free to open his trap whenever he wishes though.

BTW, I love most of what they are doing in iOS14.5

 

[mtneer]

They are standing up for their own standards. In fact with the contract with Foxconn, the workers are getting paid above average wage. Apple through its manufacturing partners is actually making life better for the workers who work at Foxconn.

It’s not about morality being relative or not, it’s about the “not do enough” syndrome surrounding Apple that eats at some. Apple is under no obligation to take on every aspect of the worlds issues. They are allowed to be principled and discuss what they feel is best.

Nothing will absolve them of their failure to take a strong stand regarding what's happening over there. If they don't want to suffer from the "no do enough" syndrome, then they should quit puffing their own virtues. If they find the time to boast about their principles, they have the time to put a statement condemning atrocities too.

 

[planteater]

I think FB is far worse. Imagine FB as Google ...

For Google they primarily build two aspects: ad profile and internet use profile. I expect this as I use their goods and services.
Facebook on the other hand, which I do not use, nor any of their services, attempts to build a complete profile on me.

From Google I would like to see more transparency and allow me more control on what they collect.
Facebook is collecting info on me which I have not agreed to as for profit activity. Stalking me basically. Facebook need a serious reining in.

The thing is that, Google has a far greater reach and can track where FB can’t. In the 00’s I started noticing how every new product that G launched filled in chunks of the internet that were invisible to them. One by one the products rolled out. Check out Google’s inventory and see the breadth they have. Multiple ad entities, analytics, mail, browser, mobile and desktop OS, safe search hitch sends all URLs to them by default in multiple browsers, apps like chaptch, and on and on.

Then you look at statements they made about data gathering, mining and scoring individuals.

They have more reach than any company should have.