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hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,328
2,895
In reality, it doesn't matter. You can't protect everyone from stupid people. We will end up living wrapped in bubble wrap

Then we can use other apps. Even Facebook will be replaced in the future, and so will Twitter, that's just how it is
Developers don't owe you their app if they want to move it. And you don't need to use their app.

I want Apple to protect people who don't know what they're doing and I don't mind if developers suffers from it.

Today's system make the developer the weak part. In practise, they have very little power which benefits Apple and me.

In practise, they do owe me the app because the alternative is not to be available to iPhone customers and that's a too heavy burden for most developers.
 

hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,328
2,895
Apple asks for a share of Facebook's revenue. Facebook says no. Not even two years later Apple releases software that harms Facebook revenue.

That's an anti-trust lawsuit waiting to happen.

But what Apple did is a good thing for customers. It doesn't matter if Facebook goes bankrupt because of it, because it benefits me and others. And we are more important than Facebook.
 

hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,328
2,895
If they leave, then it’s because the Apple AppStore sucks and better alternative exists for both sides, for dev and customers. That’s how a competitive healthy market works.

I don't want competition which increases the power of developers. Most of the times, my interest aligns more with Apple, and anything which gives developers what they want is usually bad for me.

I don't want developers to know who I am, contact me, collecting info about me or my usage of their app. And I want them live under severe rules on how their apps can behave, even stricter than Apple forces them to do.
 

Wildkraut

Suspended
Nov 8, 2015
3,583
7,673
Germany
I don't want competition which increases the power of developers. Most of the times, my interest aligns more with Apple, and anything which gives developers what they want is usually bad for me.

I don't want developers to know who I am, contact me, collecting info about me or my usage of their app. And I want them live under severe rules on how their apps can behave, even stricter than Apple forces them to do.
I guess your wishes won’t become true.
Anyway, that’s why the EU Digital Services Act also include privacy customer protection laws, it goes hand and hand with EU Digital Market Act.
 
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webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,906
2,523
United States
Making it open and competitive would mean increasing competition, not taking steps to maintain the same duopoly. Financially subsidizing a company that wants to enter the market, THAT would be increasing competition. Or creating incentives that make it more likely that companies would create more smartphone OS competition. Any “solution” that still ends up with just two smartphone OS’s hasn’t increased anything.

A duopoly alone is not necessarily illegal. It's the potential anticompetitive behavior that needs to be addressed by these types of regulations. Only if a duopoly company is unwilling or unable to follow antitrust regulations should a breakup of that company be considered.

The competition issue in this case is about products or services related to mobile OS e.g., app access and markets (app stores, sideloading), payment systems, browsers and browser engines, etc.
 

ingambe

macrumors 6502
Mar 22, 2020
320
355
I want Apple to protect people who don't know what they're doing and I don't mind if developers suffers from it.

Today's system make the developer the weak part. In practise, they have very little power which benefits Apple and me.

In practise, they do owe me the app because the alternative is not to be available to iPhone customers and that's a too heavy burden for most developers.
Android protects the end user pretty well

If you want to install a third-party app, you have to really want to do it.
First, you have to activate this possibility in the settings. When you click on that option, a pop-up appears with a timer informing you about the potential security and safety risks.
Then you have to install the APK, where another scary pop up appears.

Basically, this is not something the average Joe will do. You don't install a third-party app by accident on Android.
 
Last edited:

Onelifenofear

macrumors 6502a
Feb 20, 2019
702
1,331
London
Yes, there is very good reason. Kneecapping other apps by withholding basic functionality and data access from them is anticompetitive - exactly what's being investigated.

This is going to do zero to satisfy or even placate antitrust investigators and legislators (and rightly so).

We're not living in the olden days of software distribution on physical media anymore.

Agree on this one.

Privacy will only be effectively safeguarded by user choice - and that choice being respected by vendors and and enforced by a secure OS. Not by Apple's current review process.

Well yes you are right limiting functionality is anticompetitive, but I am utterly in the camp of having a closed ecosystem for security. Android has got a lot better but it’s still the freaking Wild West.

We are living in a world created by Apple and Android.. they made these things. They should get to decide how they damn well work. Why the hell should Epic be allowed to FREELY stand on Apples shoulders and use their technology. I don’t get why this is even an issue - they are not a Monopoly. There are many other phones you can just go and buy if you are not happpy about it.

I bought and iPhone for the security and privacy. Epic and others coudl completely destroy that.
 

q64ceo

macrumors 6502a
Aug 13, 2010
522
789
I always love this statistic. “People who own smartphones and have access to third party stores don’t use them. By a HUGE margin. So, Apple should go through all the effort required to support third party stores (including the endless additional security patches) for what’s likely well under 1% of their customers!”

There’s literally zero business case here. Apple could NOT support third party stores in 2023 and would lose, at most, well less than 1% of their customers? Seems like a sound business decision to not support them. Now, if the government wants to foot the bill for it, that’s a different thing altogether. However, I doubt the government will want to pay what’s required.

You should be able to run any program not approved by Apple on a $1000 device. You'd be up in arms if Apple took away the ability to run third party apps on the Mac. Yet you are happy to not have the freedom here. Is your Mac filled with viruses? No, it isn't, just like your phone won't be if they were to open it up.
 
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q64ceo

macrumors 6502a
Aug 13, 2010
522
789
But what Apple did is a good thing for customers. It doesn't matter if Facebook goes bankrupt because of it, because it benefits me and others. And we are more important than Facebook.
...which they wouldn't have done had Facebook given in. Apple wouldn't have hurt their business interests in Facebook had they gotten a slice of the pie.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,964
7,908
So you claim. We could hold a vote: „Should Apple have the exclusive power to decide what applications can be installed on iOS - or should applications be installable freely, such as on other OS (Windows, macOS, Linux).
The voting has already happened. Apple MIGHT sell more of their devices if they were altered in some way but, RIGHT now, this year, Apple will sell over 100 million phones and, for the cost of production, they consider that a good return. If the sales of the iPhone drops to 12 million because everyone is avoiding buying the iPhone because they don’t like the phones or the software model, THEN Apple would change. Unfortunately for folks like you, it doesn’t look like there’s enough people concerned about such things to the point where they’ll hold off buying an iPhone.

That’s the issue that will be regulated: application software markets have (for decades) been related but independent markets (from OS and hardware). And it has had hugely benefited innovation and pricing for customers.

Apple has chosen to bundle or „fuse“ hardware, OS and distribution of application software into one platform and control it all by themselves in monopolist fashion. That is obviously not illegal - but it should be.
Not in a monopolist fashion, in a “doing business normally” fashion. For example, Microsoft created Xbox and has fused hardware, OS, and digital distribution of application software. And, even for the physical distribution of software, they still take a cut of every sale, so it’s not like developer can get around it by NOT paying the fee to Microsoft.

This is the same structure that underpins all businesses. It’s ABSOLUTELY a huge risk for Apple to not license the OS to third parties (as shown by the awesome success of Android), but if it’s a risk a company wants to make, a risk which actually limits the spread of their OS, they should be free to take that risk.

The fact that checks and balances aren’t needed for most users and situations doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t exist.Alternative methods of app distribution are checks and balances on Apple‘s behaviour and pricing.
Yes, alternative methods like Android. If Apple’s behavior and pricing becomes bothersome, customers will stop buying and buy Android instead. Unfortunately for folks like you, the vast majority of customers DON’T find Apple’s behavior and pricing to be as big of a problem as you do.

Operating systems are a market that’s (basically) naturally converging onto few options.

When people or governments want and benefit from competition in the market for automotive vehicles, that doesn‘t mean that more mutually incompatible underlying platforms should exist.
Always the same story.

“This is about competition!”

“Well, how about things that would actually, you know, increase competition?”

“No, it’s not really about competition. It’s actually about the fact that there’s not enough people that care about the things I care about to the point where none of the current vendors will change the way they do business to meet the needs of the tiny market segment I’m a part of… I guess.”

“But, even if you’re really stuck on the “few options” idea, one of the new options, just like Apple did, could be favorable enough to a large enough number of people that it bumps one of the current leaders out of the market. And, that new option might even be more open to looking at your tiny market segment and supporting it!”

“No, I really just want Apple to change. Yeah, not about competition at all. Sorry I brought it up that way.”
They have curtailed development of applications (and functionality within applications) for their own OS. Which, along with Google‘s Android constitutes a duopoly.
Apple controls Apple’s OS and Apple’s App Store and Apple’s development software and Apples development hardware. Sounds to me like they exert zero control outside their own partitioned off portion of the tech world. Compare this to ANY of the antitrust trials of the past and you’ll see there’s QUITE a big difference there.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,964
7,908
The competition issue in this case is about products or services related to mobile OS e.g., app access and markets (app stores, sideloading), payment systems, browsers and browser engines, etc.
So, you just want to make sure that there’s no competition against Google and Apple, you just want to make sure the duopoly continues. It appears that’s what a lot of folks want.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,964
7,908
Basically, this is not something the average Joe will do. You don't install a third-party app by accident on Android.
The average joe WILL do it if they’re being talked through it by one of the myriad number of call centers that have been set up to defraud users. It absolutely will not be installed by accident, but it also will not be what the user wants to happen.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,964
7,908
You should be able to run any program not approved by Apple on a $1000 device. You'd be up in arms if Apple took away the ability to run third party apps on the Mac. Yet you are happy to not have the freedom here. Is your Mac filled with viruses? No, it isn't, just like your phone won't be if they were to open it up.
So, this is just speaking for me, personally, I’ve never purchased a $1000 device not understanding what the device can do… without understanding if the device will meet my needs. I hear that some folks do that and, while I don’t entirely understand it, it’s not like I can control how they spend their money. I doubt that even telling them directly that “buying expensive products without research is silly” would even dissuade them.

The point is that the Android market has shown that there’s an exceedingly small number of folks that would ever take advantage of the feature. As this is NOT a “zero effort” activity (Apple would have to set aside dollars for the work to first implement then support it over time), that means that every dollar Apple spent in this area would be a dollar wasted as the feature wouldn’t even drive more purchases of much more hardware, if any.

Even the maligned Stage Manager feature may drive more purchases of hardware, which is why Apple’s doing THAT instead of THIS.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,414
2,255
Scandinavia
I don't want competition which increases the power of developers. Most of the times, my interest aligns more with Apple, and anything which gives developers what they want is usually bad for me.

I don't want developers to know who I am, contact me, collecting info about me or my usage of their app. And I want them live under severe rules on how their apps can behave, even stricter than Apple forces them to do.
Developer have less power if they must compete more between each other

And on the last part, they use IP developed specifically by apple to do that.
There laws against speeding….
And we have speeding cameras. And car registers that automatically sends the ticket to the owner of the car.
It's easier to catch a speedier than to nail the owner of an app (in the potential future world), of doing nefarious things with your data. Even if there is a law against such behavior.
A company is registered and can be fined. We don’t abolish the system for the 0.01% who escape the system
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,414
2,255
Scandinavia
The voting has already happened. Apple MIGHT sell more of their devices if they were altered in some way but, RIGHT now, this year, Apple will sell over 100 million phones and, for the cost of production, they consider that a good return. If the sales of the iPhone drops to 12 million because everyone is avoiding buying the iPhone because they don’t like the phones or the software model, THEN Apple would change. Unfortunately for folks like you, it doesn’t look like there’s enough people concerned about such things to the point where they’ll hold off buying an iPhone.


Not in a monopolist fashion, in a “doing business normally” fashion. For example, Microsoft created Xbox and has fused hardware, OS, and digital distribution of application software. And, even for the physical distribution of software, they still take a cut of every sale, so it’s not like developer can get around it by NOT paying the fee to Microsoft.

This is the same structure that underpins all businesses. It’s ABSOLUTELY a huge risk for Apple to not license the OS to third parties (as shown by the awesome success of Android), but if it’s a risk a company wants to make, a risk which actually limits the spread of their OS, they should be free to take that risk.


Yes, alternative methods like Android. If Apple’s behavior and pricing becomes bothersome, customers will stop buying and buy Android instead. Unfortunately for folks like you, the vast majority of customers DON’T find Apple’s behavior and pricing to be as big of a problem as you do.


Always the same story.

“This is about competition!”

“Well, how about things that would actually, you know, increase competition?”

“No, it’s not really about competition. It’s actually about the fact that there’s not enough people that care about the things I care about to the point where none of the current vendors will change the way they do business to meet the needs of the tiny market segment I’m a part of… I guess.”

“But, even if you’re really stuck on the “few options” idea, one of the new options, just like Apple did, could be favorable enough to a large enough number of people that it bumps one of the current leaders out of the market. And, that new option might even be more open to looking at your tiny market segment and supporting it!”

“No, I really just want Apple to change. Yeah, not about competition at all. Sorry I brought it up that way.”

Apple controls Apple’s OS and Apple’s App Store and Apple’s development software and Apples development hardware. Sounds to me like they exert zero control outside their own partitioned off portion of the tech world. Compare this to ANY of the antitrust trials of the past and you’ll see there’s QUITE a big difference there.
It always been about competition. But not the one you tries to portray.

The competition between phone vendors and OS manufacturers are good. And the state doesn’t care about them.

What they care for is the competition ON the devices and OS’s. The fact apple prevents a healthy market on the mobile application market is what they take issue with
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,778
10,904
It always been about competition. But not the one you tries to portray.

The competition between phone vendors and OS manufacturers are good. And the state doesn’t care about them.

What they care for is the competition ON the devices and OS’s. The fact apple prevents a healthy market on the mobile application market is what they take issue with
There already is a healthy competition in the mobile application market. We already have low prices and significant and plentiful alternatives across almost all common app markets.

The lack of competition that people are complaining about is between app stores. This issue would best be solved by preventing Google from entering into agreements with almost all their horizontal competition except Apple to pre install Google Play Services and exclude competition.
 
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